Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have read both sides of why and why not monitors need UV lighting. I have always used a MVB Bulb on one side of the cage for a seperate hotspot and my monitors have always basked near it even though there are two basking spots aval. Anyone have some good articals that actually explain in detail about UV lighting for monitors.

Monitors such as, Water, Niles and Black Throats to be more spec.

Hi,
I`ve used the UVB emmiting lamps for some time, but I`ve been firmly convinced that when kept under optimum conditions (a whole prey diet, sufficient basking temps etc, etc), UVB lamps sre not needed for captive varanids.
They remain in excellent health, long lived, and productive for many, many years, without exposure to UVB.. I`m a "convert"!!

I use UVBs for my prasinus but I think it's unnecessary.

As long as I know, reptiles do see UV light, but I think it's mostly the UVA.

So, provided they have no UV, they don't see stuff the same colors they would in nature. And this could lead to different behaviour.

That is the only argument I can think of. But I also think it is not important to monitor lizards.

Oh.. And they help plants to grow better, if that matters..

A former bandmate of my many years ago once handed me a huge photocopied batch of papers that were at the time an underground book on lighting in reference to growing pot (this band members other passion and detriment to his musical potential). It made me realize not only just how little we know about lighting in the reptile industry but also just how useless a lot of those florescent tubes really are. that was many years ago. All along from before that time until now I have kept waters and a nile and a few other species of monitors along the way and never once kept one under uv lighting I have never had any problems with calcium deficiency with any monitors ever. I had almost take my thumb off once (thank God he didn't it would be really hard to play guitar lol.) I am kind of guessing that his bones were just fine. I know his jawbone certainly was. All kidding aside most of those florescent tubes are junk designed to take your money. Considering there is an internet these days I am sure you can google info on lighting and not have to rely on any pot head friends. Don't discount that direction as a source of info though they do know a LOT about lighting.

While its nice your monitors did that, what did they actually accomplish in their lifes? That is what is important.

In my case, I have produced generation after generation, of species after species of varanids, without any consideration of UV bulbs.

These monitors grew very quickly and produced heavily and lived long lives.

So how does that compare to yours sitting under UV bulbs.

I am not trying to be mean or anything, but it really takes very little to keep a monitor alive and apparently healthy.

The test of what is required is taking varanids throught their lives events and repeatedly.

I am not trying to take anything away from anyone I was just trying to get a sense on how many people may or may not use the UV bulb. It's just like the post a few down about someone saying they never turn the flood lamps off and have 24 hour light. Never heard much about that either, I always had light cycle rotations. Which is better??? beats me but it gave me something to think about. I dont ever plan on breeding monitors so I can't even comment on that. The only thing I can say is when having 2 hot spots of the same degree, the monitor I had would always bask on the MVB bulb spot.

You mention having two basking spots at the same temps, and the monitor always chose the one under the UVB bulb, perhaps it had something to do with the intensity of the light itself?
I still use a Megaray UVB/UVA lamp in my salvators enclosure, but mainly because it helps to keep the ambient temps up, and it`s good for illumination. I do not believe they are harmful to the animals when used according to the manufacturers instructions,and most are very weak (the tubes especially), compared to natural sunlight, which wild varanids bask in very regularly!
So whilst I don`t think captives kept under optimum conditions need supplementary UVB exposure, I`ve decided to make use of the spare lamp I`d already bought...

First, the comparison of one monitor picking a UV bulb over a non UV bulb, of the same temp, raises many questions like, what was the non UV bulb? A incandesent, halogen, flood, spot, combo, etc etc etc. And what was the temps? What resulted from that choice, what became of the monitor? ETC. In short, a monitor sitting under a bulb is totally worthless information, not to be mean, but it is worthless information.

The point is, did that bulb allow the monitor to achive life events, decent growth, reproduction, longevity and more????? Did the UVB bulb increase or add to that? If the monitor simply choose to sit under a certain bulb, and it did not benefit it, then it was a poor choice.

I have posted this before. To bask IS not part of life events for a monitor. Its a tool to reach operating temps. Normal operating temps, allow the monitor to accomplish life events.

Normally during their active season, they almost never bask. That is non aquatic varanids. Aquatic varanids bask a lot, and they do so because normally water temps are below their operating temps. They are required to bask to elevate their body temps BACK TO NORMAL.

As far as I can tell, a monitor thats body temps is where it needs to be to meet whatever function is going on, avoids direct sunlite, like the plague. In fact, most reptiles do. Some never bask in the open.

Which leads to this. From my own field work, and I have seen thousands of wild varanids in the field of many species, Only a very very very small percentage if individuals in a givin area, bask at all. You know, a very small minority of the population and normally they have particular reasons for basking. Which is, a extremely low body temp, and a real need for a higher body temp.

When they do bask, they attempt to bask for the very shortest amount of time. I imagine is fairly dangerous to stay out in the open, particularly when the monitor is not at full operating temps. THere are exceptions, very large individuals like large water monitors are very careless about that and with good reason, they are too large for most predators. That and considering the places they normally choose to bask are already proven safe from the remaining predators. Also those basking areas must include escape routes that are proven, like water, holes, hollows, crevices, etc. That is in nature.

In captivity, the task of a basking area is the same, its to allow the monitor to achieve its preferred body temps in the shortest amount of time. Once the body temps are reached, the monitors then go about their business, to dig, to climb, to hunt, to complete internal tasks such as digesting food or developing eggs etc.

Growth in varanids is accomplished at a fairly wide range of temps. But in the lower temps, fat placement becomes a problem as well as calicum placement.

Now for the original poster again. You can ask for opinions all you want, but here there is a real problem. 99% of the keepers you ask, have never allowed their monitors any real life success, and in fact, the vast majority have their charges fail, die, or sold off in less then a year.

So a much better question would be, What is the value of UVB bulbs and what were the longterm results.

In a nutshell, my recomendation is based on having a few dozen species, go through many generations and achieve very successful results in growth, reproduction and longevity.

Growth, reproduction and longevity are the goals that success is measured by. Not my monitor sat under a bulb and smiled at me. The quality of husbandry is measured during times of extreme usage, like rapid growth and heavy reproduction.

An individual static varanid doing nothing but sitting in a cage, requires very little.

So what I recomend is, newbies first create actual realistic goals and expectations, then ask questions that will lead to achieving your monitors goals and your goals.

As I have also mentioned about a million times, I have kept Varanids, outside since 1991 and inside and both. All are raised inside without UV bulb expousure until they are adults. 2/3's are kept inside their entire lifes.

The only difference is, the outside varanids get sunburnt and tan. That is after they shed, the outskin becomes darker. Much like us.

There is no difference is bone density or any other health concern, in fact, the inside varanids tend to live much longer.

As far as I know, there is no UV bulb that comes anywhere near the sun. Not even close, not the ones available to us keepers. SO are comparison was with the best UV bulb, the sun.

Most are so lame, that in actual fact, they are only a tiny tiny tiny bit different then any regular bulb. Then they become totally lame as we normally do not keep them close enough to the varands to actually do what they say they do.

Most UV bulbs are measured AT THE BULB and not at the distance we normally keep the bulb at for other husbandry reasons. Most UV bulbs deteriorate very very quickly, that is, from the moment you buy them, they become like any other bulb, within a couple weeks. All have a short recomended use life. All are expensive.

I was once asked what if I used UV bulbs. First, we are fortunate to have achieved very very superior results with our varanids, without UV bulbs. In the actual areas of concern, growth, reproduction and longevity. THat question was asked after about ten years into our success.

My answer then was, If I was to use UV bulbs and I followed the manifacturers recomendations for replacement. It would have cost me about 2 million dollars during that time. Compare that to the less then quarter million I spend on regular bulbs. Which is a pain in the bum as it was.

And what was I going to achieve over what I already achieved. I already recieved very superior results. In truth, my results were so far past everyone elses, they ran and stuck their heads in holes. Those others are the ones telling me I NEED to use UV bulbs.

In actual fact, that 1 3/4 million dollars I saved by using regular bulbs, I indeed invested in better cages, better temp control and the most important of all, MORE FOOD for the monitors.

So yes, save the friggin money and invest it in more better cages, or take a friggin cruise to Aruba. or for those from the UK, take a cruise to Tabogo, that island is full of folks from the UK and the eateries are normally french. Rent a Moke and circle the island and cross over the middle. Stop at the park, its beautiful. To something of value. Cheers

All good information FR. I understand where you are comming from and I realize that a lot of the post here end up containing worthless info. Being not a pro at this, sometimes it is hard to weed through the bad husbandry and care advice. I really got to think about it when I was reading some older post and the information gave was a little sketchy, like monitors having 24 hour light cycle and feeding only crickets. I too had a megaray like the other poster said, and they are amazing with ambient temp as well as basking. You keeping the monitors outside would mean there is a light cycle year around and from what you say they were healthy a repoductive. Running a 24 hour light cycle would not only use much more energy and burn through bulbs double the speed. From what I can remember when the lighy cycle kicked off and night ceramic heater turned on to keep ambient temps up, my monitor would go down in its hole and usually stay there. In the morning when the light cycle bulbs turned in he would come out and sit and bask and be fed shortly after that. I don't know if I would call it a routine with the lizard but it sure seemed like it. This way he got fed at mostly the same time every morning and every other time I was in the cage later in the day he wasn't charging me for food. Mabey I am missing an advantage to 24 hour cycle or the poster is just blowing smoke. Like I said I am not out to breed monitors, I just am set for having a good health, non-over weight, long lived, active monitor.

I went to a show this weekend and actually picked up ornate nile. So far so good at the moment, feeding good on dubai roaches that I breed myself. I was happy to see that it already will eat from tongs. Hopefully I got a winner, I hate overseas farm bred monitors but it seems as thats what I was gonna get. Now I plan on passing the GOOD knowledge onto my girlfriend so she can learn how amazing monitor lizards are and we are already started on building a large enclosure although he is only 12 inches, as most my pro knowledge is in woodworking.

I have no Idea how much A mega ray bulb costs. to be honest with you I'm not sure what one is. I am willing to bet it costs mega bucks though. With an ornate nile you will find that you will need to use a bank of basking lights to create an adequate basking spot. You can currently get a 2-pack of 50watt halogen flood lamps for around $8 at wal-mart you can get 100 watters a bit cheaper and in 4 packs but they use more electricity than the 50 watters. whichever you decide as long as you get the proper basking temps. While your nile is small you can use plain old incandescent bulbs before they ban them in 4 months and those run about a dollar twenty for a four pack of whichever wattage you want.
I only casually keep monitors Gut I have bred day geckoes and chameleons for almost twenty years on a large scale with the day geckoes. Both are rumoured to require high u-v lighting. I have never used u-v bulbs with either. My success with chameleons has been so-so. I do tend to keep most of my chams outside. I keep my day geckoes both inside and outside and reproduction with them has always been off the charts inside with no u-v and decent but not as good with the outside pairs (I live in fl. btw.). I buy all my bulbs from wal-mart as long as they are of the wattage I want, the cheaper they are the better.
As for the 24 hour cycle I don't use it on most animals but aside from a higher light bill. the bulbs will actually last longer being on all the time. Turning them on and off is what kills them.

Megaray was 50.00 But it was used for my bearded dragons until I made a different setup. I won't be buying another thats for sure. I have two retes stacks for the heat gradient. Top of the basking retes stack that has a flat stone on it is around 135-140. He usualy only sits on the hot spot for about 15-30 mins and then moves on to digging his hide hole or climbing. I took out some egg,turkey,liver mixture and he devoured it tonight. I am glad he has such a good hunger, can't wait till he can swallow pinkies. Substrate is dirt/sand base with jungle earth topping. The cage is only 36x24x24 atm but I didn't want anything super big for a small baby. I will get some pics up when I finish his background and plants.

Your absolutely right, finding good information on the internet is nearly impossible.

Even when good information is posted, others attempt to discount(attack) it so they do not feel about about their efforts.

What is so disappointing to me is, the mass of information on these sites is so 30 years ago, you know, when there was NO ACTUAL SUCCESS. Those days, a zoo would hatch a baby, ONE BABY, and publish it as if that was great. What they did not publish was, it took ten sets of adults and twenty five years to GET THAT ONE BABY.

Since then, we hatch hundreds of babies from one female and many many many species having the same results. Generation after generation.

Yet, folks still want to use that 30 year old crap that FAILED.

Those that have success, get real froggin tired of coming to places like this and posting as it leads to nothing but long drawn out discussions(battles) with a person that knows everything, yet has done nothing.

These forums are full of that. Its true, the average result with keeping monitors is FAILURE. The average lifespan for Savs is a few months. Yet, those beginers think that the information they FIGHT for, is what is causing that complete failure.

The reality is, you the reader need to research what your reading, that means ask the right questions.

In this case, in order for husbandry to be good, you need to ask, what became of the monitor that was supported with that type husbandry.

Then you can pick whatever results that fit your need. You know, a happy healthy pet monitor, a reproductive monitor. Etc etc. Pick what fills your expectations.

As an example, a single pet monitor, kept in a tank, cannot expend the energy of a reproductive monitor in the same cage. So it cannot consume as much calories, it has no way to expend it.

In the early years I hatched thousands of varanids. Lately I rarely dig up eggs. Yet I still promote keeping them in pairs and letting them lay eggs.

The reason is, its a very natural way they expend energy. If fact, all energy obtained in nature is used to grow up and reproduce, that is their design. To keep them non reproductive, is not natural. Not in the least. To keep them where they grow slowly or not at all, is not natural and it does not matter if they are wild or captive.

So you must find methods that fit your intended results, your goals.

Yet, I rarely see questions aimed at how to obtain the keepers goals. Its always about TURKEY friggin diet(nasty crap) or crickets and Savs or some other donkey doodle thing that is out of context to the actual keeping of varanids.

Another example, people fight tooth and claw about insects being natural to savs. Well dang it, its natural to all varanids, every stinking one of them. Either all their lifes, the very small ones, or the neonates of the very large ones.

There are two distint truths about insects. One, they are not the same as the insects they consume in nature, not in species or content. And insects cannot support large varanids or even reproduction and good growth in medium varanids. Not in captivity or in nature.

If that were the case, the larger varanids would still consume insects, they do not and cannot for a reason. Take another example, a large monitor will consume from 1 to 3 pds of food(more at times) How many crickets does it take to make a pound? hahahahahahahaha Three pounds????? It would simply wear the animal out trying to consume three pounds of insects, unless those insects were giant. Do you get this picture, So varanids start by consuming insects, but as their needs increase, they move to larger prey items.

Lets use another example, an ackie can and does consume 30 or more crickets a day. With that in mind, how many could an adult sav consume, just to fill its stomach. Remember, the size of their stomach is for a REAL REASON. They wouldn't need a stomach that holds a few large rats if they were suppose to consume crickets.

I read a report of a male adult lacie that had two fox cubs, three ringed tail possums, and a bearded dragon in its stomach. Hmmmmmmmmm so you think crickets will work, hahahahahahahahahahaha

In one or more of Daniel Bennetts books, he shows a picture of a V.p. rudibus that was feeding on dead roos, it was so full that is stomach was dragging on the ground. There are many pics like this in books of wild varanids. I ask, how many crickets would it take to do that. Or any insect?

They eat like that for a reason.

The truth is, an adult sav is not a little monitor, a large male sav is the mass of an adult lacie. IT has a large head and stomach for a real reason. I wonder what that is! Cheers

I find it interesting that sav keepers (the majority of the new ones) have this laundry list of ground meat and bugs and dustings and "treats" they feed their sav to provide it the nutrients it needs. Yet, they don't get that something whole and simple like a mouse will replace all of it. Why would you even want to feed it all those things when one simple food item will work and is proven? If you're feeding your monitor a food that has to be dusted with nutrients to be complete, wouldn't that suggest it's not the right food item?

Before I got my Black Throat 6 years ago I read all the care sheets and internet postings, and it was common to hear suggestions of ground turkey and roaches and crickets and dust them with this or that, but then I'd talk to guys who'd raised and bred them for years and said not to waste my time with all that stuff and just feed them whole prey. It just makes sense.

It would be like eating a pizza. You eat a slice or two and you're done. It's simple, quick, and effective. But then your neighbor says he's got a better way. He eats; flour, salt, sugar, tomatoes, basil, cheese, pepperoni, green peppers, onions, olives... Well, hopefully you get the point. Yeah, you could eat all that stuff to get the same result. Or you could just eat one thing and make it easier on everyone.