Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We have had reptiles of all kinds all our lives. About 4 months ago me and my boyfriend was discussing how awesome it would be to have a big lizard that potentially "rule" the house. We decided to look in to the monitor thing. I wasnt to worried about it because you dont see much around here that people are selling. We do have younger children that come on and off to our home. So i didnt want something ferocious. But something large that could be puppy dog tame. So that when young children come to my house and play with my snakes and turtles and geckos and what not they are not mauled. We let the convo drop. Well awhile goes by and my friend mentions he has this adorable little female monitor that was calm, ect ect. I kinda blew it off and didnt think much of it. I mentioned it to the boyfriend in a casual convo! didnt think he would actually go get it. So i have this (it is cute) about 9 inch long nile monitor that i call nessie after the lockness monster. She was tolerable to handling the first few weeks. did normal new repti wriggle when u first held her and she would settle down...Now She is a monster. Tries to bite bite bite when you try to pick her up. I did the research the boyfriend should have done before getting her. and read there is pretty much no taming them they get big and do what they want. I feed her change her water bowl. Clean her cage. But dont know what to do. I hate being a failure to any animal. But really I should call it quits and find her a home with no young children and someone that can hang on to her forever. Is there any other option? Is there any monitors that can be handled? Please dont hate on me.
this is nessie

For some reason I thought you were saying about that movie "Beautiful Boxer"...from Thailand. [chuckle]

People say there are some species that are tamer than others, but I have come across some really nasty black and white throat, too. The point Im trying to make is they are wild animals. It's more of a display animals... I'm sure there are some that gets really tamek, but a lot are pretty agressive, too. You don't really know what you are getting when you buy one.

Well, I'm sure plenty of people will have something to say about this. It's a very common misconception that these big lizards can or will become "puppy dog tame". That's not what you want. When people have "puppy dog tame" monitors, generally the case is that the monitor is simply suspended in a state of shock and has given up on it's life. You have to take in to consideration that every time you pick up a lizard, and it seems unhappy about you touching it, that is because it thinks you are going to kill it and eat it. What you want is a monitor that is first of all, a monitor that is comfortable in it's own environment. Then, a monitor that's comfortable with you being in it's environment. After that, I wouldn't do anything more than extend your hand for the monitor to study and if it decides to have anything to do with you, then it will. You can't force a friendship with these guys. These animals demand respect and work, far more than many people would like to believe. I blame a lot of that on commercialism and pet stores. Bottom line is, the main concern of a having a monitor, is whether or not you actually know and absolutely can provide for the monitor what it needs. Nile monitors are generally considered a monitor with a bad temperament. Personally, I like to assume they all simply have the right to be pissed at us, so I do all that I can to find out what it takes to make the lizard feel like a king before I even bother trying to "befriend" it. Find the nile a good home, because it simply won't work out with kids(IMO). Too many wounds. My nile is only about two and a half feet long and when i let him climb around on me, I'm usually covered in cuts and scratches that bleed bad just from his nails. Do a ton more research, build an appropriate cage, then go with a monitor better set for your situation. Good luck.

I think there's a big controversy on this subject. Do they really just give up on life or just adapted to situation? Of course there is a way to do it. I think you're supposed to do it gradually and not to stress it out to much. Certain species don't do really well being handle, but certain species you could habituate it to you.

If you really think about it, in nature it's not always perfect and they are under constant stress. They have to worry about falling prey to larger animals or monitors, but they're accustomed to that kind of stress, being outside...surrounded by predators. So it's not so far fetch that you can slowly habituate the animals to you...like learning to become part of their routine by doing thing the same way everyday or on the same schedules.

I'm not really an expert on monitors, so don't take my words to seriously. I'm just trying to carry on a conversation and discuss what I am thinking.

Thank you, you should always start with your last paragraph first. You know, your disclaimer.

You want talk, but have no actual experience to base your talk on. This is what is out of place.

These forums are person to person, and the great part is, you can talk with someone who ACTUALLY has the experience with the subject. You know, that has walked the walk.

Yet, you like to talk and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you let the readers know you have no experience, which you did this time. I thank you for that, you have avoided a lot of confusion. Thanks again

I don't want to be a ass or anything, but sometime people jump down my throat I get a litttle closed up...if you know what I'm saying? I don't think it's really necessary sometime.

I do not know about "people" but I get on you for giving heresay as advice.

Real people come here with real problems and you offer something you read, or something you pieced together from others and offer it like you know what your talking about. Which is wrong. They do not know you have no actual experience and are just one of them.

I do tell newbies with questions they need to QUESTION, the folks giving advice. Like check their experience level.

Its very common on forums for folks to be asking for advice one day, then the next be giving it out the next.

This forum is about living animals, monitors. Its not a pop quiz forum, where you remember what your told and repeat it. Information here, MUST WORK ON THE SUBJECT THE ANIMALS.

If not, its just academic bullshat. As in, I think this, i think that, I think the other, is of no help the the monitor.

So as long as you tell folks, you just like to talk, and you really don't have experience, then your so very welcome to talk about anything you want.

Have a great day, Cheers

So, is it really necessary to call someone stupid or implying it?

You also call other breeders and reptile rehabilitators, you know people that have experience, too, stupid. Like there are something wrong with them. That's just been my experience reading this forum. [shrug]

Paradon, now your doing it to yourself.

To not know something is naive, not stupid. I said, you do not have experience, and you do not. That is naive. For someone keep giving advice when they have no experience is stupid. .

That you extrapolate that I called you stupid is all about you. You must want to be called stupid, I did not call you that. I said and keep saying, you have no experience. You read "stuff" from here or there and manifacture something out of it, then tell folks looking for help that manifactured stuff. Sir, thats not experience. Anyone can do that including the folks looking for help.

What they are looking for is someone that actually has experience and can help them solve their monitors problem. You do understand, its the monitor that suffers.

There are many difinitions of stupid, one is, frivolously unintelligent. That you keep making up stuff and offering it to folks looking for HELP, is without question, frivolously unintelligent.

Like I said, if you start off with your disclaimer, the one that says you do not have experience and no little of varanids, then at least those folks can consider that.

You offering made up information, is more then frivolously unintelligent, its harmfullly unintelligent.

So how about getting some monitors and actually doing something with them, then you would have something to talk about on this forum.

I am not sure of all the difinitions of the word stupid. But another is, UNINTELLIGENT. You seem to make up stuff in order to sound intelligent. Well sir, that only makes you seem unintelligent.

You see Paradon, what you talk about is theoretical, you theorize something from what you read. Which is great if there is no ACTUAL information derived from the actual working with varanids. 35 years ago, most information in this area was theoretical. Happily, these days, there is lots and lots of information GAINED from the successful keeping of varanids.

You are rather over the edge. I believe the point of this forum is and should be NOT only to GIVE good information, but to allow people to throw their thoughts out there so that they can be PROVED wrong with legitimate information, not just your oh so famous "I've raised hundred of varanid species, and therefore I automatically am granted infinite knowledge over everything varanid related". Nobody doubts your experience, but everyone, and you've said it yourself ABOUT yourself, makes mistakes and is wrong from time to time. And there is nothing wrong with that as long as people aren't rushing in to making stupid and short-thoughted decisions. and YES, I KNOW that people constantly do that, I don't like it either. But if you're just giving people answers and telling them why they are so ridiculous and "naive" doesn't solve a damn thing. It just doesn't. Most of us are on here for the betterment of the monitor species, I know that is my goal. Honestly, when you say the things you do say, it is never failing for your comments to be very condescending and "matter-of-fact". You, for the betterment of the species, should discuss the matters, and explain - calmly and clearly - why they are wrong, and spend the time to lay down the science of it all. That is the only way we can hope to better and teach the society that is unfortunately, rather uneducated and apathetic. Many of these people who can't even take care of themselves like to take on exotic animals as "pets", and that simply doesn't work. Now,you commenting on the naivete of the person, is congruent to me commenting on the persons entire lifestyle and incapability to care for the monitor in the first place. When I see people posting on these forums about "how much do I feed a full grown nile?" or "how big does a nile monitor get?", yeah, that pisses me off, and they may deserve a little bit of a verbal "spanking". That is because they clearly did not put the time and energy in to even the basic research of the

potentially six foot lizard, which is purverted. On the otherhand, there is no reason why,
if you're going to post on here at all, you can't speak on common grounds in order to better
the herper community if we're talking about a fair subject, such as nesting, or diet, or natural habitats
and what not. "Cheers".

The actual point is to be honest, If your conversation is theoretical, then say that. If its from experience, then say that.

The reason is, many folks(newbies) come here from other areas of reptile keeping. In those other areas, everybody breds them, so its assumed when advice is given, its gained from experience.

They often come here and are shocked that very few, nearly nobody is breeding monitors. And very few have healthy pet monitors.

This is one of the few areas where captive reproduction is the exception, not the rule and healthy captives are an exception.

Then theres Paradon, hes done what, kept a Rescue Sav for a couple of months, and hes giving advice to folks that are asking for help. He makes up goofy stuff, like plants leaning to the sun, and somehow connects that to varanids, hahahahahahahahahaha

I think thats a joke, but its not funny because so many varanids are dying on a daily basis. Do you think its funny to offer advice that causes harm to monitors??????

So good on you if you think I am overboard for Checking folks like Paradon. You see, all those dead monitors are NOT FUNNY. And its not entertaining and its not about Him liking to carry on a conversation.

And yes, people SHOULD ask for where information is gained from. Its just somehow they don't. Then they have a dead monitor. Only one that suffers is the monitor. Good on you MM

Look, my point is that we should be teaching people and sharing our experiences. Not reprimand them like children. I'm not saying their capacity to think is much more increased than that of a child's. But there is no reason we can't just speak on common grounds when it's fairly deserved. Like I said, I agree with your response to the general asshole who thinks "oh, big lizard, cool". Trust me, I am the guy who goes to the pet stores, and goes off on the owners for their care on the monitors, and just the same, I'll give people interested in buying monitors honest answers on what it takes to have a monitor. Generally after they hear it, they just say "oh" and walk away empty handed. So I do agree with you on a lot of this. It's your approach. It's going to make new people eager to actually learn about monitors, both A: not learn or ask questions and B: stop listening to the good advice you have to give. No FR, why would I find dying monitors funny? Honestly?

We, masonmonitors??? What experience and knowledge do you consider you have?
Keeping a few species at the same time doesn`t mean a thing, it`s how long you`ve kept them healthy, long lived, and (if keeping them in pairs ) how productive they are/were.
Can I ask how many years you`ve been involved with keeping varanids? Thanks!

Its not about that. In this case, that person is making up stuff just to cause "conversation" in his words. Which may mean to cause arguements, to everyone else.

In this case, the subject of lites on 24/7 has shown to be very benefitual to monitors. There have been no drawbacks what so ever. Yet, he makes up some crazy line of thinking based on plants leaning to the sun and enzymes etc. Which have no tie to the subject at hand.

In this case, he made up stuff not based on his experience, or anyones experience gained from the actual keeping of monitors. His data/information/manifestations were simply made up and offered to someone seriously asking about the subject. Sir, that is wrong and should not go unchecked. He did not offer that to me. I would laugh in his face. He offers it to folks who need help. Sir that makes the whole thread confusing.

Its your responsibility as well as mine to make sure that kind of crap does not happen. That I seem to be one of the few with the nads to do so is sad. Or is it because I actually have experience to base my information on. Personally If I let that crap go without offering something of value, I would not be very responsible.

Could I do it in a better way, maybe, but I really don't have time to baby folks that want to play those silly games. If you think you can do better, then have at it. Cheers

...benefitual huh?
There is a difference between making things up, and offering up an idea on the table that is worth discussing or proving wrong. He did not TELL you that 24/7 lights would affect the enzymes in the monitor. He brought up the affect that this scenario has another living organism, put it in to a scientific possibility, and offered up a damn idea. Nothing wrong with that. FR, why don't you tell me the exact chemistry and functionality of how enzymes work in a monitors systems? If you can give me that answer, THEN you have proved your point. Not through ASSUMING that certain chemical reaction are or are not happening in a creature, just because it is alive. You said that 24/7 "lites" have been shown to be very beneficial. How exactly have they been "very beneficial"? Once again, give me an exact answer, and I'll leave it at that, and even THANK you for throwing that knowledge of yours towards me, and the entire herpetological community. It's not "babying" folks Frank. To say so is simply to put yourself above everyone else that has a question to ask, simply because they do not know, BECAUSE they don't have any monitors. Thankfully they are asking the questions before going out and getting the monitors, instead of winging it, and then definitely killing the monitor. Instead of sitting on the forum and preying on people, contribute to the cause for which we all are on here for in the first place.

It appears you did not read the entire thread, but merely jumped in to defend some helpless person.

Yes, I have an additude. Because people are not helpless, what is helpless is monitors in our cages. They are totally dependant upon the keeper.

First of all, a stinking litebulb is not the sun. Its a little tiny heat source. The benefits of leaving them on 24/7 are many. Like it allows the substrate to be heated evenly, which is where most monitors spend the vast majority of time. Its very important this time of year.

It also allows the monitors to bask, when they want. And odd as it seems, most individuals will bask at night or whenever there is the least amount of people traffic. And it does not matter how tame they are, EVEN dog tame monitors will choose to bask at night or when they are not being watched.

It also allows individuals, when more then one is being kept in a cage, to bask when it wants. often they choose to bask by themselves, and or with other individuals. Its their choice and they make it for their reasons.

The main advantage is the basking lites provide higher heat, and it appears monitors require high heat choices, both night and day.

Which is the CHOICES, I always talk about. Lites 24/7 in conjuntion with Retes boards, allow a choice of lite or dark, in a varity of heat choices, 24/7. And they do make those choices.

Just to offer you a REAL example. Reptiles, and monitors are reptiles, go to heat to digest food. They do so, night and day. In nature a monitor with food in its stomach(food bolus) will go under a rock thats heated by sun exposure or other heat sink, at night, to acquire higher temps then burrow or other shelter temps.

In captivity this is also done. In nature and in captivity, once the need for elevated temps is complete, they can and do retire to lower temps.

To compare, the average PET SHOP SETUP, is a tank, shallow substrate, a water bowl, a "hide" and a UV heat lamp. or maybe an undertank heater. The lites are turned off at night, mainly for the comfort of the keeper. It really has nothing to do with the animal. These setups do not allow the animal to do anything normal to it. And these setups do cause failure. Its promoted because it makes money for many vendors. And at the cost of the animal. Species like Savs and niles are considered throwaway species, as they are used as a leader to sell product. The actual cost of the animal is nothing and they make nothing on them.

How this lite setup benefits the animal, in this kind of care, every species we have been fortunate to work with, has gone egg to egg in under a year. And thats including the larger types. Then they have gone on to achive very long and record longevity.

For instance one female we hatched lived to 15 years and produced over 80 clutches. And I reported that as it occurred right on these forums.

So yes, I feel lites on 24/7 can be a very good tool. Do you have to use that, no sir. But I will say, its of even more benefit for the recovery of compromised(sick etc) animals.

I use 24/7 lites on about half of my animals. actually even my dang outdoor monitors have lites 24/7 once the temps go down(now)

What is sad is, folks like you are more concerned with yourselves or other people, then the monitors. The ability to keep healthy reproductive monitors is here, its being done. There are many tools in which to do that.

This picture is of three different species that hatched on the same day, in the same egg box. hahahahahahahaha to me that was cool.

GAH... Yes, I read the thread. No, I wasn't jumping to anyone's aid in particular.
Sure, they'll bask when people aren't around. OBVIOUSLY. That doesn't mean that the lights need to be on 24/7 if the monitors are given the privacy to bask on their own accord. Yes, we all love your Retes stack. They can also just as easily burrow in to the ground for a heat gradient and shelter, so long as you're giving them the amount of substrate they need.
"Reptiles, and monitors are reptiles"... Thanks. I really needed your adept commentation on that one. How could I EVER have guess that a monitor lizard is a reptile. Next time I forget what a booger is, you'll certainly be my go to on the subject.
I'm very much so aware of what a "pet shop" setup is. Like I said, I'm the guy who goes to the stores and [bleep]es at them for how they run things.
No, my concerns are not on myself. I couldn't even begin to explain to you the sacrifices I've made for monitor lizards. They get the same treatment(on the level of) as say, somebodies only best friend.
I suppose no one here agrees with me, I just feel we should be working together. I do not like the general jackass uneducated jail-bate "reptile person", which is why I'd hoped to come across better than that on the forums. In some ways I have, in some ways I haven't. Those "reptile people" have nothing to offer me, though the rest of you herpers on these forums have plenty to offer, which is why I'm on here. That doesn't mean I want to be badgered and treated in such a condescending manner by a highly reputable monitor breeder.

Heres the deal, you sir, do not have to do anything. You can do whatever blows your shorts up. Your monitors are yours. Their fate is in YOUR hands.

The question was asked by someone else, not you. They wanted to know if it works, etc. NOT YOU OR PARADON.

Which makes me wonder why do either one of you even respond. He has no experience with the subject or the question and you do not either.

Hello,
Frank may not be able to quote you those enzymatic pathways and mechanisms but I certainly can in most living things. You see I am a PhD biophysicist with an undergraduate degree in chemistry/biochemistry and my girlfriend who is also active in the conversation has a degree in animal science with a minor in nutrition and is finishing her masters in physiology with a specialization in reptile and amphibian physiology.

Mason you see the biggest problem with Paradon's post and his comparison is not that he was comparing something he did not know to something that he did know well (thats academics and I do it daily), its that he was comparing something he did not know at all to something he still did not know. He comments on people and the body "knowing its dark out" and this is false, entirely false. Do people benefit from sun exposure? Yes. Are there benefits beyond that of D3 synthesis, probably. Now do we have an internal clock (circadian rhythms)? Absolutely. However it can be shown that our internal clock still requires ques from our environment. On top of his conclusion being based off inherently wrong information even assuming his initial information was right he suffered from a logic flaw. If the body "knows" its dark out and the monitor has access to dark hides, it is irrelevant whether the lights are on or not, as long as the monitor has a dark place to sleep.

Next he compared varanid biology to plants. This is so off I am not even going to bother talking about it. There is a reason we're placed in different taxonomical KINGDOMS and AGAIN his information on plants even in the 2 sentences he was presenting it in was false or incomplete.

I have been reading these forums for months now but unlike Paradon I know to be quiet. Why? Because the topic is varanids, and I am new to varanids. However on this topic I am not new, I am highly educated and a peer-reviewed and published author in biophysics.

Frank you are doing an awesome job!

Thank you! That's all I needed to hear! Now we're learning things.

Thank Rob,

The real answer is in the results, varanids have shown a huge benefit using lites on 24/7.

And most likely because we are lacking in their support in other ways.

It seems varanids require a wider range of conditions then many other reptiles. I would guess why very few keepers so well with coachwhips etc. As they too have a heck of a metabolism. Monitors even more so.

To support that in a small cage is very very difficult. hence cheating so to speak, my offering more choices. Againk thanks

Look! I agree with you that you have more experience than a lot of people, but I still think you don't have to say it like an asshole to get your point across. Pissing off people is bad karma. I think you shouldn't talk to people that way like getting up in their face all about it. We all are naive and ignorant in one way or another; there's no such thing as people who are completely naive-free. That is also the idea behind small government in America. Government is naive and ignorant...just like everybody. They don't have the wisdom and know everything to tell people how to run their lives and businesses. That's what I'm trying to tell you! We all start somewhere.

Hi masonmonitors, I think you`re making a very big mistake; you (all of us), should be thanking Frank Retes for the tremendous ammount of effort he CLEARLY puts into passing his experience and knowledge on.
If you (or anyone else), doesn`t learn from his input (every post), you`re really not paying attention!?
As far as individuals like "Paradon", he seems intent on creating even more confusion than already exists on the subject, how will that help anyone to help their monitors?? (Except to kill many more).
An update on your animal/s would be nice...

My monitors are fine thanks? Trying to check and see if they're dead? I wouldn't do anything potentially harmful to my monitors. They're healthy, happy, and I state that from the fact that they seem to have natural responses to their surroundings appropriate to their age. Burrowing, climbing, digging, eating... NOT dying. Still defensive, and understandably so of course. My nile has grown in confidence in the past month. He no longer shy's away when I enter the room, and is curious when I go inside his enclosure to clean and such things.

No, I was asking for an update out of interest, nothing more...
Are you the individual with the Savannah monitor in a badly lit enclosure, with a single heat bulb that looks as if it couldn`t possibly heat the animal`s whole body, who doesn`t take advise too well? (I get confused as to who`s who, at times)!?

Hi again Mason, sorry, I mixed you up with someone else, I remember we`ve "spoken" several times, it`s hard to keep track sometimes! I really AM interested to know how the Nile`s doing, I wasn`t expecting it to be dead already at all... Though I do remember you saying you`ve only been in the hobby a year, that`s not long at all! (no offense)!

The hobby, I've been keeping reptiles for fifteen years. I only took on my first monitor lizard a year ago. Only after months and months of consideration and reading and such things that I think people should do before getting a monitor. My nile has, like I said, shown a huge improvement in confidence while I'm around, and both my savannahs are still happy and healthy off of the invert diet. The savannah's are honestly not scared of me all that much, as long as I don't make movements towards them. If I lay my hand in the cage, he'll inspect it, then generally leave it alone. I'd say they're getting more comfortable around me, and I've only pulled them out of their cages but a very few times just to do big cleans or add things to the enclosures to keep it "new" for them. I'll be building new enclosures for them in the next few months.

....You own a nile and a couple of savs for a year or so and your on here arguing with Frank Retes' advice to people. When I started keeping Varanids there were perhaps 3 books on the subject the internet as we know it today really didn't exist. I got a nile which I kept for over 15yrs btw (how long have you been keeping herps?). Within a month of getting him and finding more avenues to research I discovered waters which are my favorite species and I keep to this day and would have most likely started with had I been aware of them first.
Legalities of keeping niles in fl. aside I would not have started with a nile in this day and age of readily available knowledge and a much better availability of species to chose from upon doing the proper research.
I really have to question the judgement of someone who claims to have done the research on monitors and then gets niles and savs in this day and age,

Savannahs, I wanted to learn what it took to breed them eventually. I know most monitor breeders don't care to learn what makes them tick differently than other monitors because there is no money in it, but I am personally curious. As for the Nile, it's a funny story. I was actually going to go buy a water monitor from a guy that week, and instead I came in to a local reptile shop and found a Nile that was very interesting. It wasn't quite as vicious as the general Nile, it did some tail whipping at first, then was seemingly pretty curious. The shop owner said that I could take it for fifteen bucks if I wanted, and I had a good feeling about it, so I did. Ever since, he's only bitten me twice, both times during feedings when I got to close to his food. He's active and healthy. I've been keeping reptiles for fifteen years. But I think it's very fair to say that it's not the length for which you've kept reptiles, because I've met plenty of people who have had reptiles longer than I, and most certainly do not know even the basics of keeping things like tropical species. Of course that's just my experience.

Hi again Mason, just to say, there`s NOTHING much different about a Savannah monitor compared to most other species in terms of husbandry (including breeding), in fact they`re all remarkably similar!
The fact is, you`re a beginner (no shame there), it takes LOTS of time and hard work to become experienced and knowledgeable.. Maybe one day you`ll reach those heights, and then you can have a serious debate with the best of them (such as Frank Retes), but not for a while yet...
Just keep asking questions, and follow the advise...I wish you the very best I hope the fascination with these animals never leaves you!

I don't like monitors. I have experience on when helping out others that have them.

Well, One time I help out one person breeder at Serpentarium--in Lodi, CA--that was trying to breed ackies because he doesn't understand why they were not breeding. i got it breeding pretty quickly. But my experience with monitor is pretty limited.

I have over 10 years of experience keeping geckos, frogs and tarauntulas and 8 on iguanas, but only few on monitors.... I just don't like them. They seem too simple IMO. Maybe that's just me. I'm more interested in iguanas, tortoises and turtles.

If you don't like them(monitors), why are you here. Why not go to forums that you like the animals, and have experience those types of animals.

To me its very simple, you come here to cause problems. Why else would you go to forums where you don't like the animals and have no experience.

Hey how about showing some pics of your tort breeding and hatching, My son and I do produce some torts here, but we are always willing to learn. Thanks

Look. I love Kingsnake...! That's why I come here all the time.

now if you only loved monitors, then you would not attempt to dish out poor information that can cause harm to the monitors.

But you have already stated you do not like monitors. So why come to this forum on kingsnake.

Paradon, you are so welcome to come here and say whatever they allow you to say. But it would be helpful for those that are newbies, that they know your experience level. You know like your disclaimer.

Which is why I state my experience level, you know, so the reader can actually make decisions based on something real.

Having discussions centered on theory is also wonderful. But they should be on a thread where a real living animals is to benefit from it.

Paradon, if you look at the thread, your reply based on theory, diverted the thread away from the original poster and the posters monitor and made it about you, Mason and I. Then others, but not a thread centered around the original quesiton.

If you want to discuss theory, start your own theoretical thread. I would love to play with you there. Hey, guess what, I have lots of theories too.

I have to work hard to seperate my theories from actual result. There is also a difference between theory, advice and reports.

When I report that I had a female monitor lay over 80 clutches in your life, thats a report, how and why and all that is subject to discussion, bebate and theory. But the report is accurate. Its also accurate to say, our husbandry supported her ability to do that. As she was hatched here.

As I have mentioned many times, its all about context. In the case of actual problems, real results gained from applied husbandry should not be confused with THEORY. Newbies, are not educated enough to tell those two apart. Particularly when there is so much inaccurate theory floating around.

Hello, I work with monitors, I have raised thousands of them, also many other wild animals. I even man some wild animals. that is, have free living wild animals trust me and allow me in their lives.

The question of taming and wildness is a very odd question. Most animals can be taught that you are safe and can become very good friends with you. Its based on trust and you providing something of benefit to them. Its about them trusting you. You are the giant ugly predator.

Monitors, are by far one of the easist animals to man(to include you). The best way to do this is with positive reward.

With monitors food is the BEST reward. Your job is to make a partner out of your monitor, and it makes a partner out of you. Monitors are good at that.

Its easy and simple, but its about you. You must educate yourselve and you must have a touch. Its really not about your monitor, its just being what it is. Its afraid for its life, can you blame it.

Your female correct, well your a giant predator picking up a tiny animal, its RAPE, your raping it, You are breaking into its world its safety and you are threatening its life. And your calling the monitor mean. hahahahahahahaha, no, your the one violating the animal. This is a point you must understand. Your not the cute benolent queen. Your an ugly giant predator.

Gain its trust and let it come to you. Again, monitors are so so so easy to do that with.

So if you can get over the rape comment, then think about it and ask more questions if you like. Cheers

p.s. The rape comment is based on you breaching the animals safe zone. Animals have defensive behaviors, to run, to hiss, to bluff, to blow up and look as mean and large. They are intended to keep a predator(you) away. But if you breach those behaviors, you have broken the animals defensive behaviors. You have raped it. Some fight back, others internalize and die(to play dead, is really not playing). Your lucky, yours is fighting back.

FR that is a cracking answer , that's how i always approach my animals i don't violate their trust, unless there's no choice.

Can you explain more on the taming through feeding. I got ornate nile and I feed with 16" long tongs. I usually have it come out to my lap to get the food and then I try to pet it as much as it will let me while its on my lap. Is this is what you are talking about, or more of just letting the lizard know you are the feeder not he raper?

You should check out Mdfmonitor's videos on YouTube.
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0.0.2 Canis Lupus
0.1.0 Pogonas Vitticep
Coming soon - Varanus Acanthurus
Lion's Den Cage Fight Team

Hi, you don`t have an "Ornate nile monitor", there`s either V. niloticus, or V. ornatus.. If you don`t know the difference, just ask, it`s very easy to tell them apart!

well its got pink tounge, 5 rows yellow spots.

Then you have a Varanus ornatus (Ornate monitor), the largest African varanid, possibly the third largest in the world, after Komodoensis and salvator...

Ya this thing is growning fast, I can almost sit and watch it grow lol. So whats an ornate nile then? Just something people came up with or??

There`s no such animal as an "Ornate nile", they were raised to full species status some 14 years ago, it`s very obvious they are two distict species, but many people don`t really bother to check these details. Neither is there such an animal as a "Burundi nile", again, just misinformation that never gets checked out. My V. ornatus got to 230cm (7.5feet), total length...

Well when I did some reading I knew I wanted the ornate because they were suppose to be more bulky. I just knew the difference was the 5 rows and pinky tounge, which I made sure it had when I bought it. I just got my first expolsive projectile [bleep] stream defensive strat today when I picked him up. It was quite nasty thing to come across.

wish all keepers knew this

I am sorry to see that your question morphed into the thread it did and realized that you really didn't get an answer to your monitor questions.
Some monitors do tolerate handling to some extant others do not. Some species of monitors are better than others at having individuals that will tolerate handling.
Generally speaking however monitors should really be considered a display animal instead of an animal to be handled and carried around the house, it stresses them out.
I kind of get the impression from your post that you may want a large lizard that can at times roam around your house as well. Once again monitors are a bad choice for this given that they tend to want to hide in holes and such in nature and will try to do likewise in your house where they will be even more stressed. If you look up some of my old posts on here I mention some instances years ago where I tried this with a large water monitor and I ended up ripping out a wall to get it out of where it went. I also mention a few other incidents in some posts as well, look them up.
I have found that green iguanas tend to be quite tame in captivity and can tolerate handling much better than most monitors they can also be allowed to wander in the house under close supervision for a while but once again should have a dedicated enclosure for your safety and theirs. They get plenty large for most people, they do however require a complex vegetarian diet not required by monitors. Bearded dragons get a decent size to them as well and are quite handleable by children which seems to be one of your concerns as well. You may want to consider one or the other or looking into some other species. On a good note about niles, while they tend to be aggressive they are as tough as nails and if you should decide to keep it as a display lizard it should do quite well for you if you give it the proper conditions.