Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone,

I suppose this is my introductory post, although I have spoken to a number of you individually. I have also been a lurker for a couple of years on this forum, so I feel like I know a lot of you.

Please excuse the length of this post, but I figure folks may enjoy a discussion amidst all the inactivity. I'm also admittedly anxious about this whole brumation process since this is the first time I've bred collards. I have read boat-loads on this forum and in the archives about brumating collareds but still have a couple of questions:

1) What kind of humidity do you maintain during brumation?

I am of a couple of minds on this. The first is they're desert animals and are used to arid conditions and subjecting a collared to a cold and relatively moist environment seems counter intuitive. In this compromised state, they would not be able to fight off any respiratory infections so its best to keep them drier.

On the other hand, lets think for a second about where collards brumate in the wild. Typically under rocks in relatively shallow burrows that can be close to the surface. When the rains/snow comes, these soils become saturated. I've seen some photos of people who have flipped brumating lizards in the wild and the surrounding soils are completely saturated.

Also it seems like some animals drink if offered water, others don't. Wouldn't keeping humidity up alleviate concerns about dehydration during brumation? Also keeping mucous membranes in the lungs and throat moist would alleviate irritation and potential PREVENT routes of infection.

What do you all think? Does anyone have any actual data on what their humidity is in their brumation enclosure of choice?

2) How thin is too thin to brumate a collared?

The obvious answer is if you have to ask, its probably too thin. Well ok. but there's got to be some gray area here. I ask because my male was extremely active the entire three weeks between the time I stopped his food and the time I cut off the heat completely. He began this period with a nice thick tail and round belly. During the next couple of weeks, he lost a fair amount of weight off his tail and some roundness in his abdomen, but after-all isn't the point to clear the gut? He was still 35 grams when he finally went down which seems to be within the normal weight range and isn't too disconcerting.

I was over-anxious about leaving food in the gut before brumation, and perhaps should have been more aggressive in cutting back the temps faster, but I wanted to make absolutely sure the gut was empty.

Thanks for any insights you can provide.

Cheers,

Rob

Hey Rob,

I suppose everyone has their own thoughts and ways on brumation. I myself do things... my way,,, as well. I never brumate in extremely low temps as some who keep the temps in the mid 40's. I brumate on the higher end in the high 50's low 60's

Have never measured humidty in all the years I have done this. I use sterlite tubs, small for a few occupants, larger for groups. I line the bottom with paper towels. Then put in 1 or 2 hides/caves so everyone has a place and is cozy. Usually there is a small shallow bowl or plastic lid such as a washed peanut butter lid, thick washable plastic, these make great dishes :0) and I do fill with water and keep it in the tub during brumation, incase someone wakes a wants a drink.
But.... I also do check on everyone at least every couple to few days, make sure no one knocked water over or is sleeping it it or if the water is empty.

I do not like brumation and never am "REAL" comfortable while they are in it so I must admit on being a bit over cautious. I wake everyone once a week and offer a few drips of warmish water to those who may be thirsty and were sleeping. Some will drink readily, others do not, but I DO OFFER to all.

Now as far as whats TOO THIN, Well I think that is obvious, a collared who may have not been eating well, looks to have no fat reserves in tail, may apprear boney in the hip area. You can visually see these guys and make a call. Now some of us may have collareds that are smaller framed, never get hefty are more streamlined, if they eat well, and are strong/ firm/ active and all around were in good shape, with no problems all season then by all means brumate.
Again my opinion is I never brumate the young under 8 months, ( I let them have that first winter to grow and thrive) Never brumate a gravid female or one that has just had eggs/ and not be up to snuff... she needs time to recooperate and extra calcium at this point. Never brumate any that have been sick/ or in weakened condition or dehydrated..... problem eaters.... anything that may have been a problem during the season and left them not in tip top shape... DON'T BRUMATE.

** And last if I see that any are having a hard time in brumation, like after a couple weeks and they are still up .. look to be really fighting it... I take out, as these are the ones that usually do not make it if you leave them.

Anybody that looks to be losing weight or just looks bad I take out and return to tank as well,,,, lights back on. Try again next year. This is why you don't just put them somewhere and forget them for a few months,,,,, I check up as I said often, allows you to see who may be in trouble, or if all are fine.

Thats about it. Oh before brumation I leave the heat on for about 10 days while stopping their food, so the gut empties.

Hope some of this may have helped. Like I say everyone has their own produres. I'm careful as I have lost a couple over the years, so I modified,,, and do it my way.

Sleepy Tykes

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Eve
Suncharmers Colorful Collareds & More

Thanks for the detailed response Eve.

Like I said previously, this is my first go-round at this, so I want to exercise an overabundance of caution and be as sure as I can be that they're going to come through the experience healthy and ready to romp.

In that vein, I am usually of the opinion that if something is worth doing, it's worth overdoing. My aim to maintain a consistent environment to and reduce raising their metabolism and stress levels as a result of daily fluctuations in temps.

My female was easy. She cut back her activity almost as soon as I began reducing her food and the photoperiod. Then again, she came from a warmer climate. So our cool San Francisco nights helped coax her along.

My male began cutting back his food intake on his own, but maintained a high level of activity (burning lots of calories) for about three weeks between his last feed and when the temperatures finally caught up to him, he had lost some weight, but like I previously mentioned was still very active, alert and not underweight per say and still was 36 grams when he went down.

Continued on next post - evidently I hit the character limit.

Continued from previous post:

After three days of no heat at all and nightly temps in the low 60's. I transferred them to 9" x 6" x 3" plastic tubs. A 2" x 4" section was cut out of the lid on one side and replaced with screening. ~ 1-inch of washed and heat-sterilized playsand and a handful of gently moistened, but not wet, sphagnum moss at the end opposite of the vent to create a humidity gradient. This maintains high humidity, repels growth of molds and creates small droplets of condensation on the walls of the tub that they can drink from should they choose.

The tubs then went into a 58-degree thermoelectric wine cooler with a digital control. Since then, I have dropped the temp gradually down to 53-degrees. The advantage of the wine cooler (to me) is that along with a cooling the environment, it can heat it as well. We get some cold overnight temps in my area, so the ability to cool and heat seemed ideal. I cut 1-inch sections out of the door seal at the top and bottom so convection will draw in fresh air. I also added a Sper Scientific thermometer/hygrometer with current and min/max for both temps and humidity - this is a great gadget and I highly recommend it to everyone.

So far the cooler is holding within two degrees of the set temperature and humidity is between 80-95%. I hope the high humidity will keep them from dehydrating, but I also hope it doesn't cause any respiratory problems, which was the impetus for my original question.

I have checked on them since. My female is simply asleep and hasn't really moved and the male moves around some and seems more groggy than asleep. When I check on him, he'll open his eyes to look at me and hiss when and back away when I offer him water with a dropper, so I think it's best if I disturb them as little as possible to prevent any unnecessary stress and energy expenditure.

Thanks again for the response.

Cheers,

Rob

Hey Rob, that's why I use dry paper towel and nothing else damp anywhere except of course the water saucer. The chances of resp infections in my opinion are very high if it's not only cold but damp as well. Many of people lose them to resp infections, so just be careful. Let us know how you make out.
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Eve
Suncharmers Colorful Collareds & More

That's a very good point Eve, I would hate to lose them to respiratory infections. I have moved them over to paper towels with a shallow water dish made from a cut-down yogurt cup. Since the humidity is already on the higher side in the cooler, there's no reason to have additional humidity in the tubs themselves.

I'll keep you in the loop. I hate to keep fiddling around with the set up, but I really don't want to screw this up.

Cheers,

Rob

Hey Rob, better to fiddle around than lose a life. :0) Take care , and best wishes.
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Eve
Suncharmers Colorful Collareds & More

My pair has now been in the cooler for 2 weeks. The temps are stable, the humidity has come down a bit with the use of desiccants (still about 65% to the high 80's).

I took your advice Eve with the paper towels and shallow dish of water. Problem is my male moves around some and knocked it over two consecutive days in a row, so I pulled the water out completely - he doesn't seem to be interested in drinking anyway (even with a dropper).

Interestingly a couple of times I've checked on them, my male appears to be completely asleep, but is standing in what looks like his normal basking position (on all fours with with his toes up). He did that for a couple of days after I changed the substrate to paper towels and now seems to be settling in - but I still thought it was odd - anyone else seen this behavior while brumating?