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Was sold to me as P.o.rossalleni a year ago, had dull brown saddles and a mustard-like colouration. Now after a year the saddles are lightening to pale gray and the bottom colour deepening to intense reddish orange, and the head is bright yellow. There are some single grayish scales all over. The belly is pure white in throat area and changes to beige after 10 cm. So can you help me, is this an everglades, or a bairdi, or what..?

Sorry, the pics here:

here most realistic with colours, in daylight:

(And here and old picture, of the former coloration)

Looks like a pure key rat snake (deckerti) to me. They are described in the 1st & 2nd editions of Conant's field guide as tan or orange with stripes & spots, retaining their juvenile pattern. They also usually have black tongues. The subspecies was dropped 30 years ago. They're now considered yellows or everglades. Unfortunately, it's tough to find picture of them.

I had one several years ago that looks very similar to the one pictured. I believe it came from Marathon Key.

PB

That was a thought I had earlier too, and Deckert's are also noted for being pretty darn variable as well. But I have never recalled ever seeing one so distinctly 'metallic" blotched with no stripes at all though, but almost anything is possible I guess.

I know Daniel Parker has worked with them in the past.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah, the lack of stripes kind of threw me, but mine did have the metalic - gun metal color. I could be wrong, but as you mentioned, with the variability of obsoleta, anythings possible.

And some more pics..

and one more baby pic:

Not high on crosses, although I have a couple, but that is one gorgeous animal to my eye! Wow!
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See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

There is really no way of an exact identification for this snake, unless you talk to the person that produced it. It looks to be some sort of interspecies, unnatural intergrade. Perhaps everglades x grey. There are possibly genes from several different subspecies in the mix. It could also be a hybrid of two different species. Sorry I couldn't be of much more help, it's just really hard to tell from looking at pics. It's a pretty snake, if you're into that kind of thing.
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Matt Kauffman

OMG. Thankyou for the answer.

That wasn't what I wanted to hear. This is just my luck...
So there's no possibility this is a purebred anything?
I really really really am not into any kinds of hybrids.

The snake was imported from USA to Finland, so the story goes (as told by the person who sold the snake). The seller had gotten it as a gift when importing some other species and had no memory of any papers with it, just the name P.o.obsoletus, so I cannot contact the breeder or have any trustworthy data of the snake. Uh, I really don't like this. I have a gorgeous deep red adult rossalleni male and was hoping for a female for him. Oh this is *&^??&%¤****!

Some more pics if provides any more help (of different ages and in different lightning):

babypics:

the newest pics:

Äh... ment to write P.o.rossalleni, not obsoletus. (Sorry)

I totally agree with what Matt mentioned. There is no way on earth to be able to properly identify that snake down to it's precise crossed genetics and percentage without knowing it's past parental lineage. Obviously it has some strong Everglades Rat, and/or Yellow Rat influence in it's outward phenotype. But as to the other part(s) of it's genetic equation, it is virtually impossible to say with any certainty at all.

I don't think there is an entirely different genus involved though, and it appears to be a North American Ratsnake cross of the "obsoletus" complex. Possibly some light "white oak" phase Gray Rat, or bairdi..... but who knows. These are only educated guesses from what it "looks" like.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thank you guys for the information. I won't use this female for the male then. To thank you, here a pic of my adult everglades, he is a real stunner, my pride and joy. He is 8 years old and huge. Have not seen any pictures of this intense red colouration elsewhere. Do you think he is hypo?

You are very welcome.......

Yes!, that is a real nice Everglades. I feel the very same way about not producing more unknown crosses into the hobby. That is very admirable in my opinion, and I wish more people in this hobby took that same stance..

Don't worry, you will locate a very nice Everglades specimen for your other Glades. In the meantime, I would just sell yours as an "unknown cross" as a pet to someone that isn't interested in breeding it.

Good luck with all of it!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes, the female will find a new good home as a pet. You also have a very beautiful coloured everglades there!

[snake] kiss kiss from Finland

Thanks!..

The parent's were wild-caught. Here is the mother of the one I have originating from Hendry county, Florida just southwest of Lake Okeechobee.

~Doug

Another pic of the one I posted earlier when it was a bit younger.....

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I don't think it's a hypo. I think a hypo would have lighter color. It is an awesome example of an Everglades though. Better than a hypo IMHO. I wish you luck in finding a mate for it because it really is a nice snake.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I totally agree Aaron, no way it is a hypo. But it certainly is a very nice dark red normal specimen though!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I've been reading about all the "pure" racial talk regarding Everglades and whether they are intergrades with Yellows.

Reminds me that most Forum Members are not of "pure" blood, either. Most are Anglo-Saxon/Celt hybrids, which make up most of the population of North America, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand. Some may be further intergraded.

From what I've gathered on the topic of Everglades traits, I agree with Members who state that the situation with Yellow intergrades is likely what it always has been:

There will always be individual traits, with few specimens having the "pure" traits so often mentioned. Some Yellow rats will be orange; some Everglades rats will have impurities.

My Everglades has orange/red eyes & tongue, but he has stripes still, and faded shadows of remnant saddles between the stripes. He is an Everglades, nonetheless, whether or not he is bright red, or patternless.

Based on your photo and snake traits, I feel that your snaek is an Intergrade between an Everglades and a Gray. (He may also be a three-way intergrade involving a Yellow.)

He may not have the "pure" traits you seek for breeding, but he is likely a great snake that will bring you years of joy and amazement.

Ameron
Portland, OR

0.1 Lampropeltis getula california (Los Angeles County morph)
1.0 Pantherophis obsoletus rossalleni

Thank you too for the answer.

Out of curiosity, here the tongue of the hybrid female I was conserned about, had to put her to a mouse cage to get the tongue really out..

Sorry it messes with your breeding plans for your Everglades rat. It's a real beauty-I like the dark red tone a lot. I still like the new one you got though. It looks very unique and I'd be happy to have one like that in my collection. I have a real soft spot for rat snake intergrades and hybrids (though admittedly most don't look as good as yours).

Looks "white oak" grey x everglades.

When crossed to corns they call them "frosted"

Your snake is still a beauty, and it may not be a hybrid.
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Pituophis c. annectans
Senticolis t. intermedia
Rhinechis scalaris
Elaphe bairdi
Lampropeltis zonata
Lampropeltis t. campbelli
Lampropeltis m. thayeri