Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Frank,
Just curious if you have worked with V. salvator in the past. With your facilities and experience I would be interested in you sharing any experience with captive care with such a large species. So often we see them for sale and I am sure few make it to adult hood,so it would be interesting to hear from someone that has worked with actual mature sized adults. Areas of of interest would be habitat size, area of water provided, avg adult feeding frequency/amts and any comments on behavior you may have.
Thanks in advance

Well, I have worked with V.s.cumingi. I picked them because they were suppose to stay small, under five feet. But, my hatchling male grew to over six in one year, ok, slightly over a year.

But I have bred lacies and croc monitors.

And your right, the biggest problem is size of cage. And its a real problem as most of the time these animals want to reproduce in the winter and here that means indoors. Where space is limited.

I do not recomend Salvators because of their size. They are huge. Which means they take a huge investment.

But for some odd reason, that size is what attracts most people who do not have the resources to support those animals.

If I did not address all of your question, ask some more, thanks FR

So when working with the larger species such as Crocs and Waters did you continue to feed daily as they matured or does the frequency slow a bit with the larger size of the meal? I remember seeing that pic in the book 'Giant Lizards' of the author sitting with a huge salvator and often wondered with an animal that big what the feeding schedule would be. I would imagine in the wild for an adult monitor feeding would be opportunistic and if they came across say a dead carcass of some sort would they gorge themselves then go a few days for digestion? In captivity is it best to feed a consistant amount daily or larger amounts while skipping a few days between meals.
The one in that book definately hasn't missed to many meals! haha

Hi Dave, it does really work like that. That animal may only feed once or twice a week. Yet is obese.

If monitors are active, they can feed daily, and they expend the energy. If they are not, as in temps are too low, monitors feed and convert that energy into fat. So they can become very fat, and not feed much as all.

They are very very effecient animals. IF you feed one less, i will lower its metabolism and still not lose weight. You pretty much have to strave them for long periods and keep them warm to get them to lose weight.

So to answer your question, you feed one based on what its doing. If growing quickly, feed it daily, If its a reproducing female, as much as you can. If its a solitary male in a cool cage once a week or less. IT depends on its condition.

Again, that animal was obese.

Thanks for the info, makes sense.

The size thing is what made us stop selling Waters. That was a few years ago now.

Awesome lizards, but really, out of 100 sold, how many are properly setup and cared for? Five? Two?

Was just too soul sucking, putting so much work into babies and then sending them off, wherever.

I made the decision last year that our temporary break would be permanent. I still need to update our site to that.

And I sure miss those Water monitor babies.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Read this post.

The Author may have chosen better wording for the title.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Hi Wayne, which post?

FR just curious.

Thats the problem with this forum software, I replied to the FR post, just go backward 1-2-3 to the top of the list.

Just in case I will try and link it,,,,,,

FR just curious

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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Frank is not the only member here....

So why did you make your post so personal??

You are limiting your replies by addressing only one member.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

My guess is: he's the lizard king around here...

I think you have that a bit backwards Frank. In fact stored fat gets converted into energy, not the opposite way around. Not sure how that post could make sence to anyone reading it.

Being ectothermic, a monitors metabolisms functionality depends on its environment. They are not capable of slowing down their metobolic rate when food is unavailable unless they go into aestivation. But even then, they are not choosing to slow down their metabolism.

Environmental changes cue them to first stop feeding and expell whatever waste they have in their systems before they aestivate. During aestivation, their stored fat will be coverted into enough energy to keep them alve during this period of inactivity.

I think you're right. [chuckle] Food is converted into fat and fat is converted into energy.

That is right, unless more energy is consumed then used, then it continues storing energy as fat until it floods the system and gets deposited in the liver(fatty liver disease) and in other organs. Which as we know, kills the monitor.

In order for an animal to take its energy from fat, it must use more energy then its consuming.

So, how much calories do they need per week and what do you recommend for them to be able to burn all those calories? Do you let them out more often and let them have a swim in the summer time? I'm sure they benefit from excercing their muscles, too, and more muscles help them burn more calories...

Ok, the caloric intake required by any given varanid is determined by the metabolic level the creature is able to attain and effectively utilize. In viable housing tthe lizard is able to reach optimal operating temps to peform the activities it needs/wants to, efficiently. So if you keep you lizards in a manner that allows this, you can feed em night and day and all they will do is grow and make more monitors. Not lie around hiding getting obese. A fat varanid is either gravid or improperly cared for. So theres no formula that says this much food for this many inches of lizard.y

Tough crowd when people hang on your every word-the overall message is basically the same.Correct me if i am wrong

Frank R. and dave46 posts both make sense to me; they both clearly say that the total ammount of energy fed should be in relation to the total ammount of energy used..
Most varanids in captivity as adults (especially kept singly, and male), use little energy, so need a proportionately smaller ammount of food.
And as far as Spracklands book (Giant Lizards, 1992 edition), and the photo cited; he (Sprackland), clearly wasn`t concerned with that monitor`s obesity, at least according to his broad grin...
I expect that animal would have difficulty even walking!
That`s a perfect example of too much, too often, and I took it both Frank and Dave were referring to this in both the question and the answer?
A properly supported Varanid in captivity should not become obese, or die long before it`s life expectancy potential.

Reptiles do not die from "fatty liver disease" eptiles naturally have a fatty liver to begine with. It is because of their life style. The way you explain it makes it too simple. Fatty liver disease is much more complicated.

Fat does not get mobilized into the bloodstream and deposited into the liver until a reptile goes off feed for whatever reason. In fact, fatty liver is found more often in anorexic reptiles than it is found in fat captives.

Now, body fat being mobilized into the bloodstream and deposited into the liver is a normal function for when reptiles go into brumation or aestivation, but when a retiles health is compromised by parasitic infestation, protozoan infection, improper temps, and overall poor husbandry that causes them to go off feed, the body does not react well to the influx of fats bing dumped into the liver. A reptile can be obese without having fatty liver disease. These terms get thrown around too often with out the user of the term actually knowing what is really going on.

Hi Gregg, not sure who your reply was directed at, but I`ll offer a response; you seem to be saying that varanids undermetabolised ( including too low temps), stop eating?
That`s absolutely NOT true!
They`ll take food even when their (core) body temps are below "normal" activity levels, and if they cannot use the energy supplied, what would you say happens to the excess over a period of time (other than obesity, which is a killer in itself because of the strain it puts on the vital organs)?
They (usually) do not aestivate/brumate in captivity.
But I think you`re quite right to suggest most of the untimely deaths are NOT due just to fatty liver disease... (Or to feeding some rodents, as is often said)!

Ofcorse it is true. If you drop any reptiles core temp below what they need to matobolize their intake, they will indeed go off feed. It is a survival mechanism. If they eat and can not digest their food, the food will rot, cause septicemia and kill your reptile. Varanids are no exception. See how much your varanids will eat while being kept at 60 degrees.

But as I stated, this is not the only thing that will cause a varanid to not feed or not feed prperly.

I agree, rodent diets are not deadly or "fatty liver disease" causing. It is suggested that a fatty liver has very little to do with a reptiles actual diet and the onlt time this can become a problem is when there is a lack of diet due to health or husbandry issues. The fatty liver is not the cause of death. It is a secondary condition due to a primary problem.

I think you misunderstand what I said/meant? I said (at least in my mind), that even though the temps are not sufficient to allow the monitor/s to properly process the energy (food) given, they will still continue to accept it, that`s one resaon they become overweight (unhealthy), and prone to diseases.
We are not talking about what happens in the wild, this is captivity, THIS is where we need to get it right!

Now, I ain't no cheerleader........but....while frank may come off to some as a wee tad arrogant, you have no idea just how modest he's really being. Years ago I moved to tucson, where, over time, I came to know frank. I hhad kept herps for over 20 years by then, and was sure I knew reptiles. This guy taught me more in a couple years than I had learned in the two decades prior. Long nights roadhunting the desert shed more insight than I can say. The guy spotted a foot long ringneck on the passenger side of the truck on a roadside burm while driving! Muchless showing me a chupacobra(long story). So what I m saying is drop the defensive "but I ve read this" attitude a maybe learn some thing that will help your animals live better lives since that's what we're all here for, right?
Sorry for the sermon, guy

I think the internet is kindda misleading when you are trying to convey what you are thinking... I think it lost something in the translation. You don't get the feel of what everybody is feeling when they talk. Plus I'm from Thailand we don't usually speak like this, so I thought he was trying to get on my case. In Thailand we are kindda straightforward and very frank so I thought that's what Frank was trying to do...pissed me off...the way he gets up in my face, which we don't do in Asian cultures...particularly Thai. A lot of it was misunderstanding and I didn't mean to get on everyone's nerve to begin with...but I had a relaspe of bipolar because I wasn't taking my meds. My relatives are watching me closely now...and making sure I'm taking my meds.

Ok, fair enough. I have a bi polar thai friend living in bangkok who is diabetic as well. Positive to you. Me, well, I just get cranky sometime. Now, frank, I d imagine is insanely frustrated ffrom rying to explain his methods for the last15 years at least to people too trained/brainwashed by "authorities" whose grasp of what sat before them was limited at best. Sure, knowledge is progressive, and husbandry develops over time but now and then a quantum leap of awareness occurs. As always those devoted to the previous system kling to it as it is the basis for their own systematics, and part of this involves discrediting the new model, reguardless of its effective applicatiion and more pervasive understanding of the situation at hand. Try telling folks you use190 degree basking sites for any lizard. Mind ya, back in the70's the books told us 80-85 for the whole cage, feed a baby salvator once a week and watch it grow from 14 to 18 inches in a year! Once frank figured some things out, that same lizard is hitting four feet or more in that first year, that it now might actually survive! So cut the old guy some slack. You might even learn something. Six months after I started hanging out with the fellow, my roughnecks were breeding. Hard to beat that!
guy

As long as Ive been reading here, if you post advice, especially to beginners, that will prove harmful to the monitor you're gonna get chewed on by someone. Now if its just ineffective advice most will slide by but harmful help just don't fly. Thanks are due to those that speak for the lizards(sounds a little like a b movie....)
Guy

I understand I'll get chewed on over here if what I posted is questionable. [chuckle] But sometimes I feel like he's just doing that to be scarcastic. I think he jokes around too much. [chuckle] But I did learn something from him, though. However sometimes his advice is kindda hard to follow...if you know what I mean.

Your getting chewed on because your giving poor harmful advice.

ALso you try to come up with all manner of key points, by gluing this and that together from other areas that do not pertain to the actual real life keeping of monitors.

And Somehow you think your "thoughts, theories" etc are meaningful, when you have no actual experience.

Then you say such things are monitors are boring, easy, etc, when again you have no experience at all.

Whats odd is, your giving advice to folks that have much more experience then you. Yet you pretend to know what your doing.

About the Asian culture, its important to show respect, which you don't, You show no respect for the keepers who are attempting to improve their animals lifes, you show no respect for your elders who have a million times more experience then you.

I have shown you lots of respect as early on I attempted to help you, inspite of your bad attitude. I tried and tried. But all you do is continue to confuse other folks. Then say, I do not like monitors.

It would be very respectful of you to not post poor information on a forum where you do not like the animals.

Lastly, this is not Asia. Good luck

I think I started getting upset after I got a relaspe... You have to understand that I was very sick. And I think the way that you talk, and American in general, is kindda biligarent and many Asian, particularily Thai, don't talk that way. IF there's any argument or disagreement, we usually talk calmly and nicely to one another. The people of Thailand usually try not to let the anger and emotion get in the way when we talk. Sorry, for any confusions! I'll let you give out all the advice from now on.

Good luck!

Heres where you have made a mistake, I am not mad or angry. I simply tell you the truth. Then you get mad.

For instance, there is nothing wrong with not having experience. In fact its a wonderful place to be. The reason is, you have so much to learn a very long road. And that is a wonderful thing.

The problem is, your posts are not advice. You have to have experience to offer advice. You offer your thoughts or theories.

Whats wrong with that is, this is not the place for theories, when there is already a strong applied history.

For instance, keeping monitors healthy without UV bulbs, Its been done in a superior way for two and a half decades by ME. muchless others.

Sir there is no problem with you offering your theories, as I have said before, but its up to you to make sure the reader understands its only theory. And that you actually have no experience. I love theories, I love to hear them and love to BREAK THEM, hahahahahahahahahahaha Once applied, a theory is no longer a theory. See what I mean.

SO please, answer any post you want and say what you want. Just make sure the readers understand where your coming from.

When I post, I will say, I had this many generations of that species etc. I say that, so they know I have experience with that animal. I am not bragging, its a resume of sorts. IF you say, I had one Sav for a few months, then you can go ahead and say what you want or think. The readers will then understand where your coming from.

The part that really is questionable is, why do you come to a place where you STATE, you do not like these animals, you know monitors. I do not go to forums about animals I am not keeping. Thats kinda odd. anyway, best wishes

Sorry, Frank! I hope we can put this behind us.

Ehh Dont worry about Frank.

He is blunt, he isnt here to be warm and fuzzy. But he has some good stuff to learn from. He will gladly debate til the komodos come home, but I highly doubt anything he has posted in recent history was truly meant with malice.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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I know! Thank you!

Thanks for the question. Reason I asked Frank is because I have been viewing this board for many years and have read many posts by Frank and lovem' or hatem' he has a lot of experience and knowledge with varanids. I know he has worked and commented on many species concerning captive care and observations and was just curious as to if 'He' has ever worked with salvators. Simple as that.
Being a public forum (no invatation needed) I would invite anyone to chime in the topic as well.