Reptile & Amphibian Forums

USARK & Reptile Nation Save 5 of 9 species from FWS Constrictor Rule!
This morning a joint press conference was held by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida, Interior Dept Director, Ken Salazar; and US Fish &Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe at Everglades National Park (ENP) to make an Everglades conservation and preservation announcement. It was made public that a final rule would be enacted by FWSpotentially restricting trade in 9 constricting snakes. Although there had been no word from FWS or White House oversight officials prior to the press conference, Andrew Wyatt CEO USARK, learned of a“rumor” on the “HILL” that there would be an announcement regarding the Constrictor Listing; a listing of 9 constricting snakes to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act.This is an action that could destroy $104 million per year in small business while potentially making more than 1 million Americans into Lacey Act felons. This action has now come to pass; albeit in amore limited fashion than was pushed by FWS and the powerful environmental and animal rights lobby.

As of now the Constrictor Rule, when enacted, will BAN the IMPORT and INTERSTATETRANSPORT of the following 4 species: Burmese python, Northern African python, Southern African python and yellow anaconda.

USARK will be making further announcements regarding potential legal remedy to the flagrantdisregard for “science”, due process, or information quality standards by FWS and the Obama Administration. This is a clear example of policy being based on staff preference combinedwith political considerations, rather than clear science and due process. The FWS failed at every level to make a solid case for justifying a Lacey Act listing. How the White House can justify thistrain wreck of a rule to pass is a mystery. In the opinion of USARK the actions of FWS are arbitrary, capricious and unlawful. That is not a charge that is unfamiliar to FWS. In 2010 FWS scientistswere found guilty of falsifying information to manufacture science to support a rule on the Delta Smelt in the Central Valley of California. FWS was found guilty of being “arbitrary, capriciousand unlawful" in their effort to add the controversial fish to the Endangered Species Act. USARK will pursue available legal remedy

It must have been my comment I sent them from that internet form about me having a Yellow Anaconda for 20 years and I couldnt move anywhere with him if this passed lol (it is a little ironic they picked the smaller yellow and not the green seeing that the Florida ban is on the green and not the yellow). Oh well I guess I'll just have to stay put here in Florida! Welcome the newest Florida PERMENANT resident...Mr. Andy Conda (yea thats his name)

P.S.- I wonder if they ever thought that now ALL of the Burmese pythons in EVERY state WONT EVER BE LEAVING... EVER! They will stay IN THE STATE FOREVER Breed in that State FOREVER and all of their babies will stay in that State FOREVER! They will never get rid of them. I wonder if Florida will soon have MORE Burms in captivity then ever if they never leave the state Fantastic!

-----
Pythons.Net
StuInfo.org

Um, check your facts...FWS biologists were CLEARED of all charges of falsifying data for listing the delta smelt. The data did support the ruling. See article link below:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/06/local/la-me-smelt-scientists-20120106

These species are not saved. They are just delayed. And anyone claiming victory today is wrong.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I remember my first Burmese Python, it changed my life. I would be someone else,without this big man made rain forest around my house. Without any intrest in everything that ends in "ology" Without the drive to understand Nature. Without teaching others. Without at some points money to make house payments and pay taxes. Without new friends from all over the USA. Without a strong desire for success,and the brutal slap of failure. Without a reason to live no matter how bad life got. WHAT A STINKING SHAME THIS IS. Vic Morgan,for now.

However, having some time to think about it and learn more about what options USFWS has going forward AND also thinking about what would have happened had USARK not been active in the fight, I have to say that USARK did save "the other 5". Here's a blog detailing a little more about what I mean:
CLICK HERE

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

As I have sat and dealt with calls over the week from people both inside and outside the reptile community, breeders who are concerned over their future and burmese python owners who are concerned what this means to them I have spent a LOT of time pondering.

I have also dealt with preventing stuff like this on a local level both with dogs and reptiles for 15 years. Not a pro, but have been involved in stopping many a ban of the dread deadly pit bull as well as reptile legislation in my state.

Here's how I see this. Maybe I am overly pessimistic, but time will tell. We are still in for a VERY long haul.
They add 4 species to the Lacey act. 4 species that are not a huge portion of the industry side of things. 4 species that do not generate a lot of money flow.

Our side goes after them for those 4 species. Keepers of the other species relax because those things are "saved".

Our financial resources, time and energy goes into getting those 4 back. While we are doing this a lot of little fires, from tiny towns to entire states get active.

Nothing IMHO was saved. The federal ruling allowed the states to push to ban this and more. As I pointed out, Virginia has not only the usual suspects but Chondros. On a smaller level (since that is what I was working on this past week) Fon Du Lac WI had "constrictors over 2 feet" on the list.

Do I know exactly what the best path legally is? No, but I do know this is not a save, but a start of a snowball effect. So I will not agree to the saving.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

The federal action and the actions at the state level have very little to do with one another. Federal is about invasive species. The states are jerk knee reaction to Zanesville Ohio incident, and fall into the category of Dangerous Animal Legislation; two completely different things. USARK is NOT losing sight of the need to protect the states of OH, IN, VA and SC. We will NOT be spending resources necessary for state level fights on a federal lawsuit to overturn the 4 species listed on the Lacey Act. If USARK decides to pursue a federal lawsuit we will raise the money outside of (and above and beyond) the money needed for operating and preforming the mission we have so successfully fulfilled for 4 years at the state level. This is NOT a vast state federal conspiracy to eliminate the Herp Industry. Some events play off of and encourage some actions... and other actions are completely unrelated.
-----
USARK

USFWS essentially had to lie and cheat to get Burms, Rocks, and Yellows listed as "injurious" under the Lacey Act; By listing only the 4 species (instead of all 9 at once), they circumvented due process and the review process required by Office of Management and Budget (OMB) for major rulemakings that would have an economic impact of $100 million or greater. That was how they did it, and they will be shooting for the rest:

"Ashe said the Service will continue to consider listing as injurious the five other species of nonnative snakes that the agency also proposed in 2010 – the reticulated python, boa constrictor, DeSchauensee’s anaconda, green anaconda and Beni anaconda."

It was the classic divide and conquer strategy used by FWS and DOI to attain what was clearly a pre determined rule. Folks, this is your federal govt. at work.

www.youtube.com/​watch?v=9CKXA3N5GAQ

You guys simply have to be kidding.

EricWI and USARK. Please explain to the world how anyone in their right mind can expect FWS/DOI to take the herp community seriously when you (A) Claim victory in the clear absence of such and (B) then call then cheats and liars.

Calling opposition and liars will only harden their resolve. Doing so shows a clear only shows that the ones saying such SHOULD NOT BE IN THE POSITION THEY ARE IN. This is proof of a total lack of understanding of the political process. One could guess this from the resume presented by the principals of USARK.

Do you expect them to be up front and honest at the negotiating table after having been called a cheat and a liar? No. I thought not.

Any person with the ability to think and reason the facts through can see that the loss of burms and afrocks (while reasonable) is no "victory". Read further and you learn the non-listing of the remaining Eunectes species and Boa constrictor is not a "save". It is simply a tactic called incrementalism. Now USF&W has a true victory with burms and afrocks. They'll use that as proof it was a good idea and then list the remainging Eunectes species and Boa constrictor. The press release was very clear. These species are still on the table and not "saved" by any stretch of the imagination.

Anybody claiming victory and calling the feds cheats and liars is the real liar. And on top of that they are fools.

"Do you expect them to be up front and honest at the negotiating table after having been called a cheat and a liar?"

The point is, no one is living under the illusion that they will be upfront and honest based on their behavior to date...regardless of what has been said in this forum or any other.

Mark

So because you already do not trust them; you think it doesn't matter what is said? I assure you, it matters what is said.

Don't ever forget; you are negotiating with authorities that hold your future in their hands. Pissing them off and denigrating their character are extraordinarily poor negotiating tactics. I cannot conceive of a tactic that will get worse results. Yet this is the tactic utilized by the saviour of the reptile nation, Barney Fife himself.

You have already gotten a small taste of what is too come. Wouldn't you rather see if you can improve on this result, or are you happy with more of the same? If you condone this kind of bahaviour then you get what you deserve.

Keep it up and what you have is an I dee ten tee at the negotiating table. Do you want this representing you?

Negotiation? What negotiation? What table? I do not believe there is, nor was there ever, an invitation to negotiate anything. It was, and remains, a series of actions taken by various governmental bodies (with the illusion of opposing interest participation, such as superficial comment periods) that are pandering to AR special interests and governmental departments and employees that stand to gain from those actions. They have clearly fabricated science to support policy positions that precluded the "reports" on which they are supposedly based. You can put pearls on a pig all you want, but it remains a pig. I agree, and have previously stated, that we have won nothing. But I do not agree that we are forfeiting our negotiating position by telling the truth about what has transpired, because I don’t believe we are in a negotiation. I think the only chance we have is probably in court. I do not believe these parties (FWS/DOI and their propaganda organization USGS) are interested in truth, reason, nor least of all, negotiation.

Mark

i just posted this on another forum....
We (The Reptile Nation) are not a big enough entity to affect any future outcome of any elections. Therefore we don't really matter. The ones who make the laws know this...one bad apple (Florida) spoiled the bunch and it wasn't their fault...they just happen to have the perfect environment. We lost 4 species and there will be more to come. I just wonder if it is worth the funds to chase the 4 or focus on the rest to hit the list. I know that overturning the ruling of the 4 would be a major victory but very expensive.

The Ball Python nation is the largest there is in the snake market and probably in the reptile industry all together....but the only ones interested in overturning the ruling are the BP breeders that have something on the list.
There are thousands of BP breeders in the US and if they all came together and donated the price of a pastel female ($100.00) then you would have enough to fight....but it is not going to happen until they see a list from the Gov't listing them as an invasive.

You would not believe the number of breeders and collectors and owners of reptiles that I have contacted in the last few days that had no idea about the ban and really didn't give a crap because they didn't own any on the list.

I am not saying I am giving up...never was that type of person...but I feel like we are playing a game of chess with very few pieces fighting a full board on the other side and all I keep hearing is "CHECK".....
Travis
-----

LAIR OF DRAGONS

You acknowedge the attacking of your opposition saying it (I paraphrase) doesn't matter they weren't negotiating in good faith anyway.

You acknowledge poor results. You have to. Two cool species are banned.

Yet you fail to reason that the poor results may be due to the clown that is attacking the opposition.

Forest/trees.

Isn't it possible that the poor results are due to your fearless leader attacking opposition at every opportunity and them not taking HIM seriously? If you answer know to this you are not being pragmatic. Why should any bureaucrat speak to him seriously. No matter what happens, and specially if he gets his way, he will denigrate them. That being the case, they might as well get something juicy in return.

Imagine the feather in their cap when they take retics and boas off the table.

Just remember, one definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again all the while expecting different results. The results never change. Something gets taken away, fearless leader claims "victory, donate more money", then sometime later screams "the sky is falling, we need more money, donate now, we take paypal..." and the donations aren't even tax deductible.

Why throw any of your hard earned money into the rathole that is USARK? Why put a penny into his pocket and his weekend tryst fund that he calls "the trade show fund"? Ever notice that at every show, he has some hot babe "volunteering", suppose she covers her own expenses?

To continue to do so is (by the definition provided above) insane.

For me, this isn't about Andrew, USARK, or even burms, af-rocks and condas. It's about the bad behavior we have all witnessed from factions from within our government. It’s about being fed up and angry that they can, and do, operate with such disregard for ethics.

Personally, I support several organizations that are "engaged" in the various "fights", some national, and some local. I don't agree with any of them 100% of the time, nor do I agree with 100% of their views/actions, but that is to be expected. Just so you know, in addition to USARK, I am also a member of PIJAC, OAAO, and ZAA. In reading some of your other posts, you seem to be really anti-Andrew/USARK, and very pro-PIJAC. I’m not sure what that’s all about, but I guess it’s a “need-to-know” situation, and I don’t need to know…

To be honest, based solely on my affiliation with both organizations, I can't say that I have witnessed activity from PIJAC that warrants so much praise. I agree that they have longevity and more legal power on staff, compared to USARK, but for reptile related activities/issues, I am not aware of anything they have done recently to be impressed with. To be fair, they do not consult with me, nor inform me of their activity, so they could be doing something … I am only saying that I am completely unaware, if they are.

I also want to be clear that I do support a USARK vs. PIJAC show-down. I don’t think it has to be “either-or”. I think each have their place, and if they could forge a serious relationship as allies, cooperating, collaborating and working in unison, they could be incredibly effective.

Mark

Oops!!!

Should say:

"I also want to be clear that I do NOT support a USARK vs. PIJAC show-down."

Mark

The Rhodda study was put out before USARK even existed, right?

Personally I would like to see more public scrutiny of how these listings came about and the corruption and junk science behind it.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

After following this for last few years, I am left with a nagging question in my mind. What are the quality standards for data collection needed by the federal government for making policy decisions? Is this just a glimpse of how so many laws are enacted? If so, I am concerned over all personal freedoms, excuse me, I mean rights.

I agree. I see the way the invasive python issue transpired, with the faulty science and the media manipulation and it makes me wonder how many other scams our government has pulled. The difference here is that I actually read the studies and I know the names of the prominent players and I wonder how they can not be ashamed. It is just soooooooooooo bad them saying pythons could invade almost the entire United States and that pythons might evolve into a cold tolerant species.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

That is one of the best questions I have seen posted. The Information Quality Act governs the standard of quality of information used to substantiate a federal rule making such as the Constrictor Rule. Because it was confirmed from scientists round the world that the USGS Constrictor Report was NOT the kind of quality scientific work to base policy or legislative changes on, USARK filed a formal challenge in 2010 of the Constrictor Report in the form of a Request for Correction of the myriad of errors, misstatements and inconsistencies within the document. USGS responded that they were not held to information quality standards under the IQA because their "Grey" paper was NOT deemed at the time of publication to be a "Highly Influential" document; meaning that their estimate of the economic impact of the rule it was supporting fell below the $100 million threshold that constitutes a major rule. Unfortunately for them USARK commissioned Georgetown Economic Services to do a comprehensive economic assessment of the reptile industry. They researched the entire industry and determined that the rule, in fact, reached beyond the threshold to approximately $104 million. This put the entire rule making process in jeopardy, because now USGS and FWS could be held to account in a federal courtroom for bypassing information quality standards under IQA. After USARK proved that this would indeed fall into major rule territory, White House oversight officials appeared ready to bury the rule.... Until HSUS, The Nature Conservancy and Defenders of Wildlife pressured Florida politicians to ask Obama to push rule through. Then government did what it always does, it compromised. They chose 4 snakes that would not carry the economic impact constituting a major rule and enacted this limited version avoiding the mandatory integrity in science demanded by going after all 9.
-----
USARK

Has anyone figured in how much this would impact the companies the snake breeders buy from? As in tubs cleaners and so on? Eric
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Reptile specialty items are calculated into GES Report.... non-reptile items were too nebulous and difficult to get a handle on w/o dramatically increasing costs of doing assessment...
-----
USARK

lairofdragon said:

The Ball Python nation is the largest there is in the snake market and probably in the reptile industry all together....but the only ones interested in overturning the ruling are the BP breeders that have something on the list.
There are thousands of BP breeders in the US and if they all came together and donated the price of a pastel female ($100.00) then you would have enough to fight....but it is not going to happen until they see a list from the Gov't listing them as an invasive.

Most of what you said makes sense and I agree. I wish to simply put one point in one paragrah in perspective. I put it above for clarity.

The ultimate cost of suing the federal government over this issue is in the neighborhood of $5,000,000 and could be as high as twice that. {this data comes from a friend who is a federal attorney}.

I doubt you will find 50,000 ball python breeders to donate $100ea. If you correct your thought to include ball python owners, then you have a fighting chance.

Otherwise, nicely put! The thought about them not joining the battle until BP's are attacked is spot on. Unfortunately.

"....but it is not going to happen until they see a list from the Gov't listing them as an invasive."

it's coming...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/UW/UW34100.pdf

Mark

I know its coming...but I also believe the Gov't will be very carefull to add them knowing there is strenght in numbers and that would be stirring a hornets nest.
Same reason they didnt add all 9....economical impact...someone whould have to do their job that they get paid for and actually research the facts.
Travis
-----

LAIR OF DRAGONS

What reptiles do you keep?
Tell us a little bit about your collection so we know who we're talking to.
Thanks!
Aaron

We should expect our government employees to be a little more professional than to let name calling and denigrations factor into the lawmaking process. I work in retail and it's like when a customer is rude to me, I still have to maintain a professional attitude. If I was the owner of the store I could tell any customer I didn't like to take a hike but I'm not the owner and our government is not the owner of this country.

I don't deny that you have a point in saying that we should be respectful of our government but on the other hand this is a free country, the people have free speech and government employees should act professional by rising above pettiness. What they do affects not just the few who might be rude to them but all of us.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron said:

I don't deny that you have a point in saying that we should be respectful of our government but on the other hand this is a free country, the people have free speech and government employees should act professional by rising above pettiness. What they do affects not just the few who might be rude to them but all of us.

I cannot agree with you more. The operative word here is "should" government employees should act professional"; on the context of doing their job professionally. That is to say not to allow the bad acts of a few hurt the freedoms of the masses.

Unfortunately, that is an idealistic viewpoint. We do not live in an ideal world. If we did, this discussion would not be taking place. Now would it?

We live in a REAL world. One in which the masses have hired a neanderthal that doesn't understand a most basic precept of negotiation, that is to not piss off your opposition. The leadership at USARK is tainted and there is no recovering from the damages that have been done to opposition opinion of the herp community. That is as long as he is at the helm. He was hired to be the mouthpiece and that mouthpiece has insulted opposition. There is simply no denying this fact, it is everywhere! The insult is definitely felt and is certainly perceived to be from the ENTIRE herp nation.

Until new leadership is found your money is best left in your own pockets.

The only path to future success at the negotiating table in Washington DC and 50 state capitols is to find new leadership with appropriate qualifications. Not some Deputy Sheriff from Mayberry RFD that has no background, education or experience. Now is not the time to train a lobbyist.

Can we have some specific examples of the "damage" that has been done?
So, now we know what we SHOULDN'T be doing. Please give us some Action Items as to how you think we should proceed.
Also, don't forget to post those pics of you with your animals and to tell us all about your breeding projects!
Aaron
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Aaron_Houts said:

Please give us some Action Items as to how you think we should proceed.

I thought I was pretty clear, so here it is in list form:

(A) Fire the leadership of USARK
(B) Don't sue FWS for the burmese python
(C) Hire new leadership for the industry
(D) Stop insulting opposition
(E) Start trying to save the boa constrictor
(F) Forget all the remaining anacondas too

For gosh sakes, why sue for the burm? Burms got all the press.

This is a political dead end. Burms are going to get banned at the state level in 40% of the states in 10 years or less. The federal listing is meaningless when they are banned at the state level.

Bookmark this post to see if I am correct in 2022.

FWIW; my attorney buddy indicates that the way to beat this back is to force it into a "states rights" issue. If a state, say Pennsylvania, would like to have burmese python commerce then a federal ban hurts commerce in that state. Change burmese to Boa and now you have an argument for states rights.

No way in he|| burms are going to get saved. Too much money in banning them, protecting native wildlife, studying them as invasive and all the rest. It is a political winner as NO politician no matter which side of the aisle wants his constituents harmed by a giant tropical state. Makes them look good politically to ban them. Political self interest will win everytime.

Look at it this way, they all but buried the tobacco industry in the USA. Compared to smokes; herps are nothing. They will bury herps if they choose to. Insulting them just makes it easier, and perhaps more satisfying the them.

Now is the time to begin work on getting the boa constrictor off the table. Aaron Houts you should be first in line to get this ball rolling. I am certain your business needs you to. Beautiful snake you got there.

Would love to see more images.

That's what I'm talking about.

Okay, so I'm asking very sincerely: I have heard some anti-USARK sentiment but I can't come up with any good reason not to support them. I know that you feel very strongly about this. So far though, I've only heard one actual reason for any bad feelings about USARK and Andrew. If you feel that it would be bad to post this on a public forum, please feel free to PM me.

As far as PIJAC, sure, maybe support them AS WELL but not instead of.

Yes, I am taking what I feel is the most effective action to help my Herp community and my business.

I am still convinced that USARK and the Federal Law suit are the way to go.

I believe that we should begin voting out anyone that has supported the bill in any election in which we are permitted to vote and plan to do so.

Thanks for the compliment on the snake. That girl is from our first Florida litter back in 08.

Thanks again!

Aaron
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Aaron Houts said:
Okay, so I'm asking very sincerely: I have heard some anti-USARK sentiment but I can't come up with any good reason not to support them. I know that you feel very strongly about this. So far though, I've only heard one actual reason for any bad feelings about USARK and Andrew. If you feel that it would be bad to post this on a public forum, please feel free to PM me.

Then you haven't paid attention to what I posted today.

Wyatt has no background, education or experience to qualify him to represent the entire herp community. Plus his meat fisted tactics are detrimental. Isn't that enough to fire him? The bad behaviour is enough in my book. He makes the herp nation look like a bunch of hillbillys.

OK, but if the herp nation had poured $500,000 into PIJAC the way they did USARK the results may very well be far different. At the very least opposition would not be pissed at herpers in general.

PIJAC brings to the table 40 years of history dealing directly with FWS. USARK about 40 weeks. Voyez la différence?

Yes, I am taking what I feel is the most effective action to help my Herp community and my business.

By fighting for burmese you are making a mistake. The feds will swat that off like the first mosquito of spring and march onto banning Boa constrictor and all without any pro-active measures taken by industry. Sad.

I am still convinced that USARK and the Federal Law suit are the way to go.

You are cute. Blind but cute. It is too personal for you to be objective. Please reread above.

LOL. Again you are cute.

USARK couldn't generate 25,000 letters how will you accomplish this task?

HJ

Aaron
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Hugh,

What do you mean by the "meat fisted" and "insulting the opposition" stuff?

What did he say?

Who was offended?

I'm not really bothered by the fact that he's not educated or experienced as I'm not seeing concrete examples as to where it has hurt. I mean specific quotes, etc..

If we let the burms and anacondas go, do you not agree that it would set a precedent?

Also, you say to "start saving boas." How then?
Just by giving to PIJAC?

When you say "hire new leaders for the Herp Industry." What do you mean?
Not USARK or someone else to lead USARK or PIJAC?

Clarify please.

Aaron
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Dude, can you read? You just made this discussion circular. We are back to where we started. Because you are polite I will address your questions one last time.

What do you mean by the "meat fisted" and "insulting the opposition" stuff?

In a very public way, he called the people who enacted the Lacey Act listing of burms "liars, cheats and thieves". That is meat fisted and insulting all rolled in one bun. A real industry representative would never have even considered making such a statement. Someone who knows the ropes inside DC, and has education and experience would have been a far better representative.

I'm not really bothered by the fact that he's not educated or experienced as I'm not seeing concrete examples as to where it has hurt. I mean specific quotes, etc..

You should be. Opposition doesn't take him seriously. He is an outsider with zero people skills, Lady skills yes, people? NO. His seriously poor results prove it.

Also, you say to "start saving boas." How then?
Just by giving to PIJAC?

When you say "hire new leaders for the Herp Industry." What do you mean? Not USARK or someone else to lead USARK or PIJAC?

I don't care about this path. I am not a details guy. I fight for the overall landscape of the battle. As long as the face for the industry has knowledge, background, education & experience. Oh yeah, & is not some modern day Barney Fife.

That leader will know how to best defend Boa constrictor.

Burms are gone. Precedent is set. Any further fight is a waste of precious resources. As I said, any lawsuit in defense of burms will be swatted away like a mosquito. Opposition will march onto banning the remaining species. Boa constrictor is the really truly important battlefield. Burms, Anacondas, Afrocks and Retics? Not so much. If you do not get to work on Boa constrictor very soon, they will also be lost in the next 24 months. Bookmark this post and have a look in 2014 to check my prediction.
-----
______
| HJ |

As a matter of fact, not ONLY am I "cute," I CAN read.

Where is this quote about him saying "Liars, bums, cheats, etc.?"

"Not about the details?"
The details get the job done.

Also, why are you avoiding my question about what you keep?
You know what I keep. Why are you so passionate about this if you don't keep reptiles?
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

"Not about the details?"
The details get the job done.

Yes, but that is not my place.

I see that my place is to assist in moving in the right direction so the correct details can be dealt with.

As things are now, the correct details are not being dealt with. They are being left to the whims of time, all while precious resources will be wasted on a guaranteed loser of a lawsuit.

Where do that lawsuit take place? In front of a judge.

Who signs that judges paycheck? !?!?!?!?

A lawsuit to unlist burms and the rest based on the bad science utilized is indeed a guaranteed loser. Hell, they had no science about AfRocks or Yellow Andos, they just listed them.
-----
______
| HJ |

Like me on Facebook

Again, no concrete evidence to support what you're saying about USARK or Andrew.
Recordings?
Transcripts?
Even a quote in a reputable newspaper?

When someone puts themselves in the public, there are bound to be people that don't like them for unimportant reasons. As of yet, I haven't heard one real reason to think poorly of Andrew or USARK.

If you're going to attack someone's character in public, then have some facts and examples to back it up.

On the other hand, I've met him in person, spoken with him on the phone and heard him interviewed and none of my experiences match up with what you're saying. He was calm and spoke well.

...and still skirting my animal questions?
The things you are proposing are divisive and, in my opinion, weakening to our cause.
It's you that I'm not sure about...
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Whats up Hugh? Why cant you post pics or tell us about your animals? Or if you dont own any,thats ok just tell us why you care so much as to why were doing such a bad job and need a new leader to win? And lastly why is it wrong for Andrew to Badmouth but its OK for you? Why should we take your advise? What is your real reason for coming on here? Do you just hate to see an injustice done to herpers? Just like an underdog? Are you Steff F with a new name? I see a re-run here. VM

My concern with PIJAC is that they seem completely out of touch with reptile related issues. There's been a bit of activity surrounding the Lacey Act and larger constrictors, yes? The "Breaking News" section of their website doesn't even mention it. It does talk about HR511 - Florida's Representative Rooney Proposes Large Constrictor Ban Under The Lacey Act (I think it died in committee, it doesn't say on the website)...but the actual rule change that has ocurred is not mentioned.

Also, I think in 40 years, with significant pet industry backing, not just herps, PIJAC would have the financial resources to act on this issue without the "issue-by-issue" fundraising that USARK is forced to do. This constant fundraising by USARK is because their support IS solely from the reptile industry, not the broader pet industry at-large.

I think if PIJAC wants to grow its membership in the herp world, it needs to come out of the shadows and become active in THIS issue, not maintain its silence. I am not so sure they are really interested in u;, they have been completely silent from what I can find. Does anyone have any recent or relevant communications from PIJAC on this issue that they can share? I'd love to be proven wrong!

Mark

Thanks, Mark!
I had wondered the same. Does anyone know anything about PIJAC's involvement?
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Yeah, that has me a bit puzzled too how I am supposed to have supported PIJAC on this issue and be opposed to USARK when I have heard nothing at all from PIJAC about this issue ever. I am not aware of anything that PIJAC has done for the reptile industry. That's not to say they haven't done anything, just that if they have, I've never heard about it.

Also, criticizing the other guy to make oneself look better has never been something I find very endearing. I've heard a few vehement posts against USARK that appear to be from PIJAC supporters. That doesn't make me want to support PIJAC, in fact it kinda has the opposite affect. What might make me support PIJAC would be if their members posted specific things that PIJAC was actually doing to help herpers, or better yet for official PIJAC representatives to post on here.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

I've rarely seen a federal lawsuit come to any kind of conclusion in less than several years. Sometimes it's a decade or more. By then, this will all be a moot point on Wikipedia.

For the amount of money people are proposing to spend, could someone not commission a large university (a large southern university like Auburn, UFL or UGA for example would be great) to do a study that emulates the USGS study. I'd be willing to roll the dice that a larger, better, peer reviewed study that refuted the USGS study might have more of a positive effect than years of litigation. JMO.

I think that, along with a serious, introspective look at how we got here would be a good start.

Hugh_jass I have been all over almost every forum on multiple websites and I see a lot of people calling you out to prove what you have vested in this battle...and maybe I missed where you were able to prove that....so maybe you can intertain me and the others asking by doing so...
You are to quick to jump on the haters of USARK bus in every post I see you hit..
Why do you hate them SO MUCH...did you loose a lot of money...do you have Burms....do you have something on the LIST...why so passionate about discrediting them every time their name appears.
Who do you work for...you a shill...a plant...what?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Travis
-----

LAIR OF DRAGONS

Hey Travis,

One point I want to make is one does not need to own burmese to feel the impact.

Right now I have counted 2 states and 6 cities in a week that have moved toward reptile bans and constictor bans. We have shared that info on our site here, the social media, forums etc. The states have waited for the federal ruling. So the lawsuit starts and all the focus goes there. What about Virgina, Rhode Island and soon Pennsylvania (they passed a measure thru their house today that was exotic mammals that if it sales thru, could easily add more quickly). I am still awaiting confirmation on a city here in WI that had a dangerous animal law tied on to a pit bull ban. The pit bull portion was quickly knocked down before it was proposed because we mobilized and hit em hard. Lined up so many damned people they couldnt get them all in. But not sure if the reptile portion got dropped. If it did, I suggest the people of Fon Du Lac kiss a pit bull tomorrow because that was all that saved them.

This is starting to snowball fast. And it is now impact ALL reptile keepers. I own none of the 9 species, but I own Morelia, which def has a chance to be far more invasive and right now is on Virginia's chopping block as well as I believe Rhode Island.

This isnt all just about burmese right now.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I agree with what you and Travis said.
I'm still where I was when I got on this thread:
USARK.
Federal Lawsuit.
More to come after that.
Let's go.
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

The biggest problem right now I see is with all the energy and to the federal laws, what happens if we win at the federal level, but while that happens all the states start falling?
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Ha ha!
If you keep posting, I won't need to post anymore because I completely agree with you again.
I personally think that it's good tactics on their part. It is making things difficult but, you're right, we have to fight on all fronts-state and federal.
Thank you for this post!
Aaron
-----
Aaron Houts
www.voodoomagicboas.com

Perspective, priority and focus Cindy... we are not going to become distracted and allow the states to go down without a fight.
-----
USARK

>>Perspective, priority and focus Cindy... we are not going to become distracted and allow the states to go down without a fight.
>>-----
>>USARK
>>
>>

IF you do, expect me to call you out on it. I know you expect little different. When things hit, I would kinda like to see em hit from the lobbying organization that I pay my membership dues to instead of seeing two days prior on facebook. Right now we have no time to waste.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!