Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello! I live outside of Phoenix, AZ and have a cute little Greek tortoise that we have had for 8 or 9 years. He was pretty young when we purchased him (captive bred). I have always been too nervous to hibernate him, but I know it is natural and best for him so was determined to do it this year. He has a spacious outdoor enclosure, and we made a burrow for him with half a small metal trash can layered with dirt and hay on top. I was hoping he would dig under the trash can, but it seems like he just walked in there. After he stopped coming out for a few days I lightly covered the opening with hay. The temperatures are in the high 30's right now at night. During the day it has been in the low 70's for a couple of days! Yesterday afternoon Spartacus was sitting out in the sun in his enclosure. What do I do now? Should I bring him inside and start feeding him? What about in the future? Should I hibernate him in the refrigerator instead of outside because of our rather warm winters in AZ? Please advise.

Thanks!
Kate

Key point... hibernation is not natural. It is a response to unfavorable conditions in order for the tortoise to survive. In the wild... those chelonians that don't need to hibernate... do not.

If you've had it for 8 or 9 years now... why hibernate it? If the temperatures get too cold at night you can provided a heated hide just for the night.

If you insist on hibernating you probably have to look at a cooler or fridge. If you hibernate it outside you need to provide an insulated box so the tortoise only experiences the night time lows.

>>Hello! I live outside of Phoenix, AZ and have a cute little Greek tortoise that we have had for 8 or 9 years. He was pretty young when we purchased him (captive bred). I have always been too nervous to hibernate him, but I know it is natural and best for him so was determined to do it this year. He has a spacious outdoor enclosure, and we made a burrow for him with half a small metal trash can layered with dirt and hay on top. I was hoping he would dig under the trash can, but it seems like he just walked in there. After he stopped coming out for a few days I lightly covered the opening with hay. The temperatures are in the high 30's right now at night. During the day it has been in the low 70's for a couple of days! Yesterday afternoon Spartacus was sitting out in the sun in his enclosure. What do I do now? Should I bring him inside and start feeding him? What about in the future? Should I hibernate him in the refrigerator instead of outside because of our rather warm winters in AZ? Please advise.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>Kate
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thank you for your reply. In the past I would bring Spartacus inside during the cooler winter months because I was worried about the conditions required for safe hibernation. If it's okay for Sparty to skip hibernating because of our fabulous AZ winter weather, that is perfectly fine with me. I thought I was preventing him from living the natural tortoise life cycle.

What kind of heaters can be used outside to keep his burrow warm at night? I'll look online and see what I can find.

Thanks,
Kate

There are some tortoise keepers that believe that they should try and duplicate nature as they perceive it. In the lower lattitudes Testudo graeca does not hibernate in the wild because they do not have to.

Most tortoises can be forced to hibernate... even those that are thought not to hibernate in the wild. Again... hibernation is just an adaptation to survive unfavorable conditions.

Heat source... I use pig blankets which are heat mats made for rough use. You can also make an insulated house with a ceramic heat emitter with a thermostat.

>>Thank you for your reply. In the past I would bring Spartacus inside during the cooler winter months because I was worried about the conditions required for safe hibernation. If it's okay for Sparty to skip hibernating because of our fabulous AZ winter weather, that is perfectly fine with me. I thought I was preventing him from living the natural tortoise life cycle.
>>
>>What kind of heaters can be used outside to keep his burrow warm at night? I'll look online and see what I can find.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kate
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed,is the adaptation you are talking about your opinon, or is it a known fact? I have seen some Northern water turtles go off feed at the hint of cold weather in captivity in Florida as the weather warms they swim around and burn off weight but do not eat. This seems to indacate they get genetic seasonal signal built into the species and not the individual animal. Dont know please explane with a reference. VM

I've never claimed it was anything but my opinion. It's a common sense kind of thing.

Those tortoises that have a range that extends into areas that require hibernation in order to survive do hibernate. In the part of their range that does not require it... they do not.

T. greaca does not hibernate in its southern most range, does not hibernate. G. carbonaria in its southern most range does hibernate.

The RES, while not a tortoise, hibernates in the areas that require it to do so for survival.

Behaviors are most likely imprinted so if a tortoise is hibernated for any length of time it will probably be inclined to do so in the future. The is the same as feeding habits which is why it is probably so difficult to acclimate certain WC tortoises.

Then there is always instinct... Sulcatas, Aldabras, Leopards, and Redfoots(in my experience) will instinctivly beddown(hibernate)during periods of unfavorable conditions... I'm talking weeks.

As to references... this is an original idea based on experience and years of observation.

>>Ed,is the adaptation you are talking about your opinon, or is it a known fact? I have seen some Northern water turtles go off feed at the hint of cold weather in captivity in Florida as the weather warms they swim around and burn off weight but do not eat. This seems to indacate they get genetic seasonal signal built into the species and not the individual animal. Dont know please explane with a reference. VM
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Are Your tortoises OK and healthy even if you don't hibernate them? They got no medical problems what so ever? Do you think Russian should be let to hibernate, or do you think all tortoises don't need to be hibernated to maintain good health? Thanks!

My Hermanns tortoises I never hibernated. I had those 8 years and I don't think the person I got them from ever hibernated them.

My Russians... 5 years was the longest they went without hibernation. I didn't hibernate them this year.

On the flip side because of space constraints I do hibernate Redfoots, Sulcatas, Leopards, Aldabras, Radiateds.

This might sound horrid but they have taught me that the mechanism in tortoises is relatively simple and follows the same line of thought that hibernation is not a necessity. It is totally temperature based as a reptile.

I don't think any tortoise needs to be hibernated if the proper environmental conditions are maintained.

>>Are Your tortoises OK and healthy even if you don't hibernate them? They got no medical problems what so ever? Do you think Russian should be let to hibernate, or do you think all tortoises don't need to be hibernated to maintain good health? Thanks!
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

thank you! I just learned something new.

i wouldn't call what she does "hiberation," but my redfoot tends to slow down a bit and eat less in the winter, even though we keep our place pretty warm and she had her heat lamp and such. insert shrug here!

A thought... It might help those that are interested if you could provid some refererences that hibernation is necessary or even beneficial if the tortoise is provided with the conditions that the tortoise needs to survive and thrive.

>>Ed,is the adaptation you are talking about your opinon, or is it a known fact? I have seen some Northern water turtles go off feed at the hint of cold weather in captivity in Florida as the weather warms they swim around and burn off weight but do not eat. This seems to indacate they get genetic seasonal signal built into the species and not the individual animal. Dont know please explane with a reference. VM
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

You got me there bud, I no nothing, I'll just let my southern range Mt.Torts stay out all Winter,they will know what to do. Screw it if their imune system fails, stupid tortoise, thats what they get for living on the Equator for 30,000 years And I'll heat up my Northern Mt.Torts just so they can loose a vast amount of weight while trying hibernating with heat . Heres a good reference for everyone, it seems no one can agree on this hibernation thing "The Obligate Scientist". Its really cool! Ed, You better hope no ones tortoises get sick now O-wise one, we'll be real mad if your wrong. "Do'in it wrong for 24 years" god all that effort for nothing, I feel so stupid like a hibernating redfoot. Pic "you stupid redfoot said the Mt.Tortoise." "Go hibernate yourself" Vic

What are you going on about?

For me... I'm confident in my opinion... again based on my experience and observations.

I'm not going to give any advice to another person if I think there is a hint of harm coming to their animals.

In fact... I think there is more chance of harm coming to an animal that has not been hibernated in... what was it... 9 years... and insisting the keeper was wrong in not hibernating the tortoise.

Again... I'm not saying hibernating a tortoise is wrong... I'm saying it is not a necessity for the good health of the animal.

(I'm still sitting here wondering where this is coming from. Maybe I'm being sensitive but I read your post as if I had personally insulted you.)

>>You got me there bud, I no nothing, I'll just let my southern range Mt.Torts stay out all Winter,they will know what to do. Screw it if their imune system fails, stupid tortoise, thats what they get for living on the Equator for 30,000 years And I'll heat up my Northern Mt.Torts just so they can loose a vast amount of weight while trying hibernating with heat . Heres a good reference for everyone, it seems no one can agree on this hibernation thing "The Obligate Scientist". Its really cool! Ed, You better hope no ones tortoises get sick now O-wise one, we'll be real mad if your wrong. "Do'in it wrong for 24 years" god all that effort for nothing, I feel so stupid like a hibernating redfoot. Pic "you stupid redfoot said the Mt.Tortoise." "Go hibernate yourself" Vic
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed,
As the person that initiated this thread, I would like to say that I appreciate your knowledge and opinion. I did not intend to start a big argument about the benefits of hibernation. I do not have an extensive knowledge base about tortoises other than the research I have done on the internet and a couple of books I purchased when we acquired Spartacus. My common sense intuition tells me that it is not likely going to be a successful attempt at hibernation here in Phoenix when the temps are in the mid-70's during the day. I think I will go with that and do the best we can to keep him warm, fed, watered, and happy. If I am worried about the low temps, I will just bring him back inside for a few weeks. That is why we originally selected a small tortoise, because even at his full size, we can bring him in if needed for awhile.

Thanks again! I am sorry that the thread went sour.

Kate

You didn't start this 'argument'... in this thread you might have. This debate has been going as long as people have been keeping tortoises and will continue for...

I don't think there are any benifits to hibernation except for maybe serving as a queue for breeding.

The risks far outweigh the benifits for the general tortoise keeper.

>>Ed,
>>As the person that initiated this thread, I would like to say that I appreciate your knowledge and opinion. I did not intend to start a big argument about the benefits of hibernation. I do not have an extensive knowledge base about tortoises other than the research I have done on the internet and a couple of books I purchased when we acquired Spartacus. My common sense intuition tells me that it is not likely going to be a successful attempt at hibernation here in Phoenix when the temps are in the mid-70's during the day. I think I will go with that and do the best we can to keep him warm, fed, watered, and happy. If I am worried about the low temps, I will just bring him back inside for a few weeks. That is why we originally selected a small tortoise, because even at his full size, we can bring him in if needed for awhile.
>>
>>Thanks again! I am sorry that the thread went sour.
>>
>>Kate
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care