Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The federal four-inch turtle law was enacted in 1974 due to some outbreaks of salmonella linked to children and purchased baby turtles. This law remains in place today and prevents the retail/business sale of ALL CHELONIANS (with the exception of sea turtles) under four inches in length.

Baby turtles under the four inch limit are frequently seen at reptile expos with disclaimer signs stating that they may only be sold for educational or scientific reasons.

Here's why this kind of sale, by a business (the reptile vendor) at a reptile expo is very dangerous to do: If you, the customer, buy a baby turtle from a vendor who has this disclaimer sign visible and you are challenged by law enforcement on the "scientific or educational use" disclaimer, YOU, the customer must bear the burden of proof at that time that you are in fact using the turtles under this designation. If you cannot, both you and the vendor (the vendor is a business) are in violation of federal law and subject to a $1000.00 fine per instance and/or one year in jail. The phrase "bona fide" is written into the "scientific or educational use" section of the law.

ANY reptile expo that allows sales of baby turtles using this kind of disclaimer sign is asking for federal trouble.

If however, you come to a public meeting of any herpetological society and a turtle hobbyist is selling his hatchling turtles, you may legally buy one to keep as a pet. Limited sales between hobbyists not in connection with a business remain unregulated. If you come to a herp society meeting, you are technically a herp hobbyist or are interested in becoming one. No one goes to herp meetings to discuss knitting.

Online turtle businesses, which I will not name here are currently in violation of the law as it is presently written. They use the disclaimer wording "scientific or educational purposes only" but they themselves are a business that sells turtles even if their customers aren't. The lack of enforcement is due largely to the perceived complexity of the law.
-----
The All Knowing, All Seeing.

Bona-Fide....hummmm, maybe we can all get together and appoint ourself's Bona-Fide Instatutions to hold Pythons ect. Its their loop hole,just follow the requirements, kinda of You might even get a Government grant to study Gov requirements.You know a community Organiser. You can really move up in the World doing such work. "Wouldnt that be a kick in the pance"* F.Senottra.

Please provide the legal definition under the federal law of what constitutes "bona fide" exhibition at the time the law was enacted as precedence oddly enough is important here....

Many years ago, I ran the herp department of what was at that time one of the largest pet stores in the US.. We sold literally hundreds of baby turtles a year well after the ban with the above noted warning with the following additional wording
"I understand that the sale for the use of pets is prohibited and that I am purchasing the turtle for bona fide exhibition or scientific purposes". The name and the information from a valid ID was added to the bottom of the slip of which the purchaser kept one and the store kept one.. Someone complained and the FDA came and conducted an investigation. There are actually pictures of me complying with the requests of the investigating personnel by holding a random selection of baby turtles up to a ruler while they photographed both of us.. They photographed some sales of the turtles, filed a warrent for the records of the number of baby turtles ordered by the store, the records of the disposition of the turtles and the copies of the signed slips.... No further action was taken by the goverment or state authorities..

As a counterpoint.. oddly enough.. why wouldn't a hobbyist go to a reptile show to purchase animals for thier hobby from other hobbyists that breed them? You may have a point on those who are purchasing turtles under 4 inches and then reselling them but wouldn't it be incumbent on the enforcement agency to 1) prove that you did not in fact breed said turtles and 2) that the person who purchased them was not a hobbyist..... Otherwise there would have been an illegal search and seizure?

Ed

>>Please provide the legal definition under the federal law of what constitutes "bona fide" exhibition at the time the law was enacted as precedence oddly enough is important here....

The definition of "bona fide" from Merriam Webster is as follows: "made in good faith, without fraud or deceit."

>>
>>Many years ago, I ran the herp department of what was at that time one of the largest pet stores in the US.. We sold literally hundreds of baby turtles a year well after the ban with the above noted warning with the following additional wording
>>"I understand that the sale for the use of pets is prohibited and that I am purchasing the turtle for bona fide exhibition or scientific purposes". The name and the information from a valid ID was added to the bottom of the slip of which the purchaser kept one and the store kept one.. Someone complained and the FDA came and conducted an investigation. There are actually pictures of me complying with the requests of the investigating personnel by holding a random selection of baby turtles up to a ruler while they photographed both of us.. They photographed some sales of the turtles, filed a warrent for the records of the number of baby turtles ordered by the store, the records of the disposition of the turtles and the copies of the signed slips.... No further action was taken by the goverment or state authorities..

I cannot make an educated guess on whether or not a law enforcement agency decides to prosecute an individual case or not. I can say that your store was in violation of the law. The signed disclaimer, ID validation or not, means nothing if the person cannot prove when challenged, that the animal is to be used for that purpose. My guess would be that most, if not all of those customers were buying "pet" turtles using your disclaimer and that your store, as a business "should" have been in federal trouble.

>>
>>As a counterpoint.. oddly enough.. why wouldn't a hobbyist go to a reptile show to purchase animals for thier hobby from other hobbyists that breed them? You may have a point on those who are purchasing turtles under 4 inches and then reselling them but wouldn't it be incumbent on the enforcement agency to 1) prove that you did not in fact breed said turtles and 2) that the person who purchased them was not a hobbyist..... Otherwise there would have been an illegal search and seizure?

This is a gray area. A "hobbyist" may indeed purchase a table at a reptile expo and decide to sell turtles under four inches.
However, the reptile expo that the hobbyist is selling his/her baby turtles at and the expo where he purchased his/her table is in fact, a business. Thus, the hobbyist is in association with a business. You see the connection.

My point with my original post was to educate, not make determinations on what various law enforcement agencies may or may not choose to do. In my opinion, it's better to be safe than sorry. That reptile expo table could turn out to be the most expensive table ever purchased in the history of expo's for that hobbyist. Thanks for all this, Ed.
>>
>>Ed

I have spoken with an FDA official here in Texas about this issue and he flat out said they gave up enforcement and refer the issues to local Animal Control to do enforcement under state health code violations.
-----
Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

quote "The definition of "bona fide" from Merriam Webster is as follows: "made in good faith, without fraud or deceit." endquote

So there is no legal precendent for a definition of "bona fide" in this context?

So if you set up a tank at a school is that bona fide exibition? How about if you allow tours of your collection or use it say once a year for a talk for the local scout group? How about if you have plans to do those things? Does that preclude the definiton of use as a "bona fide" exibition?... The legal counsel for the pet store referenced above pointed out all of those issues..as well as a few issues...

quote "I cannot make an educated guess on whether or not a law enforcement agency decides to prosecute an individual case or not. I can say that your store was in violation of the law. The signed disclaimer, ID validation or not, means nothing if the person cannot prove when challenged, that the animal is to be used for that purpose. My guess would be that most, if not all of those customers were buying "pet" turtles using your disclaimer and that your store, as a business "should" have been in federal trouble. "

So how does a person go about a reasonable attempt to determine if the person is an actual hobbyist or is engaged in "bona fide" exhibition or scientific research? There is no official paperwork issued that determines whether a person is a hobbyist (and by the way how do you discriminate between a begining hobbyist and a person who just wants a pet?) or engaged in "bona fide" exhibition... In the definition you are providing (and examples) the only way would be to avoid any sales since a person who would want one as a pet could just as easily show up at a hobby meeting and purchase one from a breeder etc (and since the breeder could be routinely selling them there it could be construed as a business).... There is no way that the hobbyist (since there is no official paperwork saying you are a turtle fancier of any level) or the person who purchased it could prove that they aren't just getting it as a pet...

The entire grey area is why there is little enforcement on this issue since proving that a person who just purchased a small turtle whether it is at a club or hobbyist meeting or elsewhere is actually a violation of the whole bona fide exhibition and hobbyist clause... since the prosecuting agency would not only have to prove that 1) you were actually not a hobbyist and 2) you actually just wanted it as a pet and were not intending to engage in any exhibition usages...

Ed

>>quote "The definition of "bona fide" from Merriam Webster is as follows: "made in good faith, without fraud or deceit." endquote
>>
>>So there is no legal precendent for a definition of "bona fide" in this context?

I think that's correct. If there were, it would've involved a successful prosecution of an individual who fraudulently claimed that the baby turtle was used for scientific/educational purposes. I don't believe that any person has been convicted under fraudulent circumstances. From what I've been able to find, and most of it was on a HSUS website, most stores caught selling baby turtles are told to cease doing so by the FDA. I'm sure that the HSUS, being an anti-pet organization would've loved to have reported on the "citations prosecutions and successful convictions" that resulted, if there were any to report on. What I've read is here:

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/exotic_pets/facts/baby_turtles_children_090204.html

>>
>>So if you set up a tank at a school is that bona fide exibition? How about if you allow tours of your collection or use it say once a year for a talk for the local scout group?

These would theoretically all be appropriate answers for someone to give if they were challenged at a reptile expo by a law enforcement officer.

> How about if you have plans to do those things?

This probably wouldn't wash. However, it's the LEO's discrection whether to proceed and act on any of this. They may have been told to let the feds worry about it. I remember being at the National Reptile Breeders Expo in Orlando back in 1995 and seeing Florida FWC officers ignore tables selling baby softshelled turtles that had the aforementioned disclaimer sign (I haven't been down there since and don't know if this has changed). It could be that the brass told them not to pursue action.

I know in Massachusetts, Environmental Police Officers do not have an assigned prosecutor, meaning whatever they charge someone with, they go into court and try the case themselves. In a case such as this, with no help in court, LE needs an iron-clad case and prosecuting people for this type of violation might not be worthwhile. It could be that because of the perceived complexity of this law, LE agencies have decided to let it slide. Also most state "Environmental police/wildlife officers" are cross-deputized as federal FWS officers and they have full powers to enforce all federal laws.

>Does that preclude the definiton of use as a "bona fide" >exibition?... The legal counsel for the pet store referenced >above pointed out all of those issues..as well as a few >issues...
>>
>>quote "I cannot make an educated guess on whether or not a law enforcement agency decides to prosecute an individual case or not. I can say that your store was in violation of the law. The signed disclaimer, ID validation or not, means nothing if the person cannot prove when challenged, that the animal is to be used for that purpose. My guess would be that most, if not all of those customers were buying "pet" turtles using your disclaimer and that your store, as a business "should" have been in federal trouble. "
>>
>>So how does a person go about a reasonable attempt to determine if the person is an actual hobbyist or is engaged in "bona fide" exhibition or scientific research? There is no official paperwork issued that determines whether a person is a hobbyist (and by the way how do you discriminate between a begining hobbyist and a person who just wants a pet?) or engaged in "bona fide" exhibition... In the definition you are providing (and examples) the only way would be to avoid any sales since a person who would want one as a pet could just as easily show up at a hobby meeting and purchase one from a breeder etc (and since the breeder could be routinely selling them there it could be construed as a business).... There is no way that the hobbyist (since there is no official paperwork saying you are a turtle fancier of any level) or the person who purchased it could prove that they aren't just getting it as a pet...
>>
>>The entire grey area is why there is little enforcement on this issue since proving that a person who just purchased a small turtle whether it is at a club or hobbyist meeting or elsewhere is actually a violation of the whole bona fide exhibition and hobbyist clause... since the prosecuting agency would not only have to prove that 1) you were actually not a hobbyist and 2) you actually just wanted it as a pet and were not intending to engage in any exhibition usages...

... and all this is probably why the law is not being enforced (meaning charges filed and cases prosecuted). Having said all that, with the way new federal and state laws are coming down hard on herptile enthusiasts, I still wouldn't want to take the chance.

>>
>>Ed
-----
The All Knowing, All Seeing.

>>>>quote "The definition of "bona fide" from Merriam Webster is as follows: "made in good faith, without fraud or deceit." endquote
>>>>
>>>>So there is no legal precendent for a definition of "bona fide" in this context?
>>
>>I think that's correct. If there were, it would've involved a successful prosecution of an individual who fraudulently claimed that the baby turtle was used for scientific/educational purposes. I don't believe that any person has been convicted under fraudulent circumstances. From what I've been able to find, and most of it was on a HSUS website, most stores caught selling baby turtles are told to cease doing so by the FDA. I'm sure that the HSUS, being an anti-pet organization would've loved to have reported on the "citations prosecutions and successful convictions" that resulted, if there were any to report on. What I've read is here:
>>

I wish I remembered the guys name. Alas, my rescue took in 75 red eared sliders here from a holiday store kiosk selling them in the turtle palm tree death traps. He tried to get out of being charged by having 5 animals independently tested for salmonella, however they came back with both Salmonella and giardia (sp). He was fined, but I can not remember if it was locally or FDA that issued it. He was also shut down in the mall he was selling his turtles. Fines come, but it is rare.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Locally there have been people busted at flea markets or on the boardwalk in NJ selling baby turtles but all of those were due to local regulations (for example, NJ prohibits the sale of any chelonian (regardless of size within the state) but locally stores that have sold them typically have that warning posted. Oddly enough most local shops that do sell baby turtles aren't usually pandering to the cheap baby turtle market but to the more upper end market with animals like baby greek or herman's tortoises.

Ed

quote "... and all this is probably why the law is not being enforced (meaning charges filed and cases prosecuted). Having said all that, with the way new federal and state laws are coming down hard on herptile enthusiasts, I still wouldn't want to take the chance. "endquote

As a side point to consider, if we all become so paranoid that we stop all above ground legal activities then it looks bad for us.. since the opposition can then point to the "illegal underground trade" or since it isn't viewable above ground, it is hard to make an argument about loss of revenue to home businesses or "job creation"...
Most of the states have prohibitions to the import of baby turtles into the state unless they meet some regulation (for example Pennsylvania has an old law on the books that requires any turtle or tortoise being brought into the state to have tested seven consecutive times for salmonella and all of the tests have to have been negative and signed off on by the state of origin's chief veternarian..NJ simply prohibits the sale of tortoises in the state...

Ed