Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I’ve been keeping Colubrids (successfully) for more than 40 years and never seen anything quite like this before. I recently acquired several c/b hatchling z. multicincta. They very quickly and one-by-one developed what looks like a pretty serious skin problem. Their scales dimpled and their belly almost looks a little moisture blistered. The eye caps turned dull and scarred looking. They continue to feed but keep going blue. Some have shed 3 times over a 5 week period! The one that showed these symptoms first and subsequently shed 3 times so far seems to show some improvement. The body scales seem to look normal and the head plates smoothed out a little but the belly scales still look “rumpled” and scarred. Obviously I’m pretty concerned because not only are these some pretty cool little guys but I paid a pretty penny for them too. Any constructive input would be helpful as the last thing I want to do is lose any of them.

Looks like zonata disease to me. Are they being kept too hot? Zonata do not tolerate high temperatures ( or at least they need a large area to retreat to with temps in the high 60's or low 70's). Nobody knows what causes this disease, but it is believed to be brought on by stress from too high of temps and humidity problems (lack of humid hide) by several in the hobby. Some think it is a virus. I believe in the stress theory due to the fact that some have had this occur in their collections and not affect more then one or two animals. Others have had it wipe out their entire collection, but all the animals were kept in the same conditions that could have caused the condition in the first place. I hope they improve and thrive for you. Sucks.

Joe

Stu,

All three of your snakes are displaying classic 'zonata disease' symptoms. It's unsure whether this ailment is brought on by a pathogen or environmental stressor. While a virus has not been found, it can't be ruled out as a causal factor just because it hasn't been identified yet. Furthermore, if it is an environmental effect then it's more than likely caused by hot and dry conditions. The first thing I'd do is immediately quarantine the snakes to ensure that no other snakes might contract anything if it is a virus at work here. Do you happen to keep any other zonata? If you do, and they aren't displaying the same symptoms, then that would suggest that it isn't your husbandry that is causing the problem, but in fact something that originated at the seller's residence. If in fact this is the case, that you do keep other zonata and they aren't sick, then I'd contact the seller and ask for your funds back. It isn't coincidence that all three have fallen sick at the same time with the same symptoms. If you purchased sick animals, possibly with a disease that has been known to wipe out entire colonies, then the seller has an obligation to return your funds to you. Personally, I'd euthanize these animals ASAP, because the causal factor for this problem has never been identified and the last thing you want to do is think they're okay and pass it on to other animals in the future. I know this hurts, but with such a problematic and troubling health issue it might be best to nip this in the bud as soon as possible and recoup your funds. Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

Mitch

I think calling it zonata disease (ZD) and advocating that they be euthanized prior to the development of neurological symptoms is jumping the gum. I admit to knowing very little about this topic but occasionally we all loose snakes to unknown factors and mother nature cares a lick about how much we pay for them when it happens.

If the animals were established neonates that looked good when they came in and come from a breeder with an established rep I'd assume there is an environmental issue at play and get busy working on it.

IMHO, euthanizing them and expecting a refund is poor advice.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

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Although I appreciate your comments I don’t think it’s a husbandry issue. If I only had a few snakes in my collection or was new at keeping herps or if I had other snakes in my collection with this problem or if these were long term captives before developing the skin issue I might think it’s a husbandry issue. But it’s none of the above. I have a well established collection of several hundred colubrids none of which have this problem. Suddenly I acquire 5 new snakes from the same person and within the month 4 out of 5 develop this skin issue. I agree with you that euthanizing them and expecting a refund might be extreme but expecting a refund while they are still alive I think is reasonable. I understand what you mean about losing a few herps to nature once in a while but those who are in the business of selling herps should also step up to the plate and be responsible for selling quality herps. Those of us that have been at this a while know how important our reputation is. I would still like to know what it is and if it’s treatable.

Stu,

Yes, I agree, euthanization BEFORE getting a refund is not the route to go. In my prior response, when I mentioned euthanizing the snakes, I was simply letting you know the route I would have taken if they were in my collection (not considering coming from someone else). Also, I've agreed with Rick for a long time that the likely cause of this condition is environmental...but, and a big BUT, until that is proven to be true we can't rule out a pathogen. I was thinking this year of taking one of my clutches and exposing half of the hatchlings to warm and dry conditions to see if this appears (and don't worry everyone, the conditions will still fall within what everyone considers safe and not cruel or unusual; i.e., mid-80's, water for drinking but not a moist box, and a small temp gradient). That kind of result would go a long way to support the environmental argument.

I'd ask whomever you got these five snakes from what the conditions were like that they were keeping them at. If they were keeping them cool (high seventies at the high end) and moist, and then they went to mid-80's and dry'er', then that might shock their system into this funk. Regardless, it sounds like it's just contained to animals you got from this breeder, so the discussion of a refund should definitely be on the table. My best of luck to you.

Lastly, another funky thing that can happen to zonata, especially when they get too hot (in my opinion), is that their entire last half of their body can go into a paralysis. They won't shed any more than normal, but they'll just go limp. It doesn't seem to be a condition that can spread from snake to snake, but I've seen it before in animals that have gotten too warm. Unfortunately they don't ever seem to recover from that. Anyhow, good luck!

Mitch

Hi All, Although I seldom come over to this forum, I have read thru Stu's post here & feel the need to comment. I have personally known Stuart since 1981, when he lived in Tulsa, OK. I saw his collection then, the husbandry was great & he was one of the very few cranking out neonate alterna back when almost no one else really was. I saw his collection a few years later in Moore,OK, still a healthy, great setup, going strong. Around 1990, again stopping at Stu's in Lewisville, TX. That time I picked up perfect neonate Andean milks from him & as always, the collection was healthy & all cages clean & well kept. And most recently, last April,2011, on my way to West TX, I stopped & spent the night at Stu's & went thru most of his collection of kingsnakes & milksnakes, and I can again say, one of the cleanest & well-kept collections I have seen. Stu's setup & acute awareness he employs to make sure every snakes cage is clean & mantained clean is impressive. His collection is mantained at optimum temperatures & humidity levels that allow his colony to thrive & produce. Husbandry issues surrounding this zonata problem Stu is dealing with is NOT the issue, the zonatas are the issue most likely. I think Stu is reasonable in requesting a refund & sending these snakes back to whomever he acquired them from. My .02 here....John F.

I completely understand Stu. I too have kept all manner of colubrids but have an inexplicable lack of success with grey bands. Didn't matter if I got neonates, yearlings or thriving adults they all did poorly for me no matter what I did. I never figured out what the problem was but have since moved and have thought of trying again but am still put off on them.

As for these critters you have, I've always seen Zs as a bit of a tricky animal particularly since nobody has a good grasp on what causes the syndrome. I'd be interested in knowing a few things:

Did you get the whole group or does the breeder still have some? If he still has some how are they doing?

Did any from this group go to anyone else? If so how are they doing?

Point being if there are other animals out there that are doing well I'm again led to environmental conditions and this need not have happened in your care. It is possible that something happened enroute that could have shocked them into this funk. On the other hand if others are having problems......

We all (buyer and seller) take risks in these transactions. For my part I would suggest you make some attempt to determine the status of the breedr's stock and the condition of neonates sold to others. If everything is cool there, keep the breeder apprised of what is going on. Get their best advise and see if you can't turn these around. If after giving it your best attempt the animals still fail you, then see if you can work out a replacement or some kind of equitable refund.

Best of luck to you. I've come to hate this selling of snakes thing. Too much potential for bad karma.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony,

I stated in my response to Stu that it was likely one of two things. I also put zonata disease in quotations to indicate the unknowing aspect of the condition. Furthermore, I asked him to examine other animals in his collection before making and decisions. Therefore, I don't think my advice was poor. Also, if or some reason this is actually a pathogen, I've learned to just cut my losses before things get too bad...as this problem, regardless of what causes it, has been known to wipe out entire colonies of zonata. Lastly, you mentioned the reputation of the breeder he got them from...I don't know who it is, nor did my answer pertain to his or her character. I just stated that if it wasn't an environmental cause at Stu's then it likely originated at the breeder's facility and that they should accept some responsibility for lack of quality animals. Anyhow, take care.

Mitch

Stu has not had these animals long. Any decent breeder would either replace the animals or refund the money. I for one, would never do business with any breeder who would not take care of this situation. Tony, Prior to reading Rick's post and his experience with the exact same ssp and animals, I would have suggested putting them down myself.

Joe

I'm looking at this from the perspective of the buyer. If it were me in this given situation I don't think I could, in good conciemce, ask the breeder to assume 100% of the loss. Not at least with the information given.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, I see where you are coming from, but these are expensive animals and I dont think he has had them for long. I myself, would gladly replace them, or refund his money. I had a z die after having her for two months. I got her from Ric Blair and he had actually sent me the wrong female. Even after her death, he sent me another female, the one I was supposed to get, free of charge. I will never forget how he handled things and if he was still in business I would still be buying from him. I did in fact buy several other animals from him prior to his clearing everything out. Reputation goes a long way in this business and doing the right thing always pays off. I see replacing them or a refund the right thing to do.

Joe

Just saying at this point I wouldn't expect it, I'd be working on returning the animals to health UNLESS I learned that there was a problem with the line in which case I would expect a swift refund.

Worrying about the financial side is secondary to getting these critters healthy. If that doesn't happen then turn to secondary things.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I had a similar problem with my black and white zonata the second year I had them. My snakes bounced back quickly once I offerred a moist hide all the time and rigorously kept it cool and moist. Even back when I kept Lz agalma (1990s) and battled "zonata disease" with that subspecies, I never had it on other subspecies. What I witnessed 2 years ago on my black and white zonata was not quite the same as the zonata disease I experienced with agalma. That may be due to subspecies differences for the condition or it simply had not progressed that far yet for my multicincta. Agalma get buffed eye caps and progress to paralysis much quicker.

I believe this is a stress condition and not due to a pathogen. A similar condition can be encountered when they are hibernated too wet also. They get the crinkly skin and shed frequently. Usually though they also have water blisters on their bellies which is likely the cause of the repeated sheds as their skin heals. The blisters are different from dimpling of the scales though. You will need to examine your conditions and whether those are actually blisters on your snakes to determine a corrective action.
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Rick Staub

These snakes have not been hibernated and they don’t have moisture blisters. I only used that term in my earlier post to describe their appearance. Moisture blister are the only symptom I have seen before that comes close to describing the condition I am seeing now. I am keeping them in suitable enclosures with a sphagnum moss filled hide and adequate temperature gradient. I have several hundred other colubrids kept in the same conditions none of which have shown any of these symptoms.
Did your multicincta pull out of it or did they succumb? Did you do anything special for them?
I appreciate your input.

My pair of multicincta rebounded quickly though they were not as bad as yours appear. All I did was add the moist hide and lower their temps. I think the biggest misconception is that zonata are the same as other colubrids. Their preferred temperature and humidity requirements can be very different. Most colubrids do not react the same way to elevated temps and lower humidity levels. As soon as my female zonata have laid eggs I take them off heat completely. Temps in the 70s and low 80s during the day are sufficient. I also prefer to drop the temp into the 60s at night though this is not always possible where I live. If you are running an 85 degree hot spot for your zonata hatchlings as is typical for most colubrids then they are too warm and likely too dry since that heat only serves to dessicate them.
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Rick Staub

Hey Stu. Sorry to hear about this. Mitch and Rick clearly have a lot of experience with the species and this condition. As it has been pointed out, however, it is not KNOWN what the cause is although stress in the environment does look to be at least one contributing factor. The fact that you have never seen this condition in the four plus decades you have been keeping snakes, including zonata, lead me to think you probably have a handle on the correct husbandry for the species. We've had numerous conversations about Lampropeltis over the years and you clearly understand the differences between alterna and zonata. Considering how quickly the snakes came down with the condition, I think it is just as possible the snakes got stressed during the shipping process as any other reason that caused the condition to appear. This is assuming they were healthy to begin with, which really is not possible to know for sure.

It seems that this thread has gone from "what is it?" to "what is going to be done about it?" or "who is liable?". In other words, is the breeder going to refund the money? Does this breeder have a small collection or is it a large collection of zonata with new animals coming in frequently? There's more we don't know about this condition than what we do.

As a breeder and businessman, I would take them back and refund the money with an apology to my customer. I would also discuss what has worked best for me and make sure this information was readily available. The point is, none of us know for sure what caused this and as a breeder, I feel there is an obligation to do the right thing and take the sick animals back and refund the money. I hope he/she will work out a satisfactory solution to the problem.
Best,

Casey Lazik
www.reptilia.com

A friend of mine had some yearlings get the "disease." They were in one of his 2 snake rooms. He moved the affected snakes into the 2nd room to get them away from the adults. The 2nd room housed some boas, and the ambient humidity was higher in that room.

The snakes in the more humid room improved quite quickly and eventually were back on track.

Also, I had an agalma from a friend who's adults got zonata disease while my snake was still in his possession. I used a humid hide at my house, and I let my cages get cool at night. My snake never came down with it. My snake's sibling went to someone else and did come down with it.

I think too much dehydration leads to the problem. I think zonata can be tricky that way - too much humidity for too long is not good, and not enough humidity for too long is not good. I think humidity choices in the cage are crucial, unless you live in a zonata-friendly climate.

On that note I know one other guy who lives very close to zonata habitat. He has never seen zonata disease at his house. I think that is no coincidence.

Same with rosyboas. If you live in a rosy-friendly climate, they do well almost no matter what you do. If you do not, it takes more work and more choices in the cage.

Worth a try. I would isolate them from others and then provide humidity choices and as wide a temp range as possible from warm to cool. And let them get cool at night.

I was wondering how many of these afflicted snakes in captivity were/are housed in rack systems/tubs? From personal experience tubs, though a necessary evil sometimes, are inherently poor when it comes to ventilation. Just throwing it out there as food for thought as a possible contributing factor??

Of course this does nothing to explain Paul's field experiences. If this is pathogen-related, could it be a latent culprit possibly triggered by stress/substandard care/housing? Some species are just not as well suited for rack-style housing as are others regardless of the efficiencies they provide the keeper.

Bill

Paul's experience and observations are very interesting and trump anything I have to say.

One thing I have seen on occasion is a keeper gets a zonata that shows the symptoms and still keeps it the same way. In other words, the conditions were not changed to see what would happen. I completely understand when you have other zonata and do not want any possibility of the disease happening to the rest. But if a specimen can be isolated, or it is the only zonata in one's possession, a husbandry change should be initiated immediately.

I thought of one other way to possibly speed up recovery. If you can get some sterile saline solution and give the snakes a daily subcutaneous injection, it might help them towards getting rehydrated. No different from getting IV fluids when you are sick. Any Vet should be able to tell you how much fluid is safe to inject. I have given SC fluids to my boas when they had respiratory infections and I was treating them with amykacin. It is simple to make these injections and might just kick them back on the road to recovery.
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Rick Staub

The so called "Mountain King Disease" will be a problem at one time or another with anyone working with Zonata. When I lived in Long Beach, CA I would have the "disease" pop up about once every two years with one or two snakes for no reason and I kept zonata in CA for almost 20 years before moving to AZ in 05. The "disease" varied. Bad skin and lots of shedding in short periods of time. After the skin problem cleared every snake showed signs of neurological disorder like tying themselves in nots to stretching out in a straight line and convulsing. Others would go paralyzed in the last half of their body. This has been a burden for many keepers of zonata and I can remember from my earliest years other keepers having this problem occasionally occur. No one knows what causes it. What we do know in many cases it is extremely contagious to other zonata. No other colubrids (Or any other kind of herp for that matter) are affected by it. I tried to fight it and just ended up with more sick zonata. I lost some real prized animals to it.

With that said and my years of experience with the "disease" I stopped taking chances with it and would isolate the affected snake(s) which led to the beast being put in the freezer. Even if it was one of my most prized animals that was the end result and it didn't take much time but, I also feel I saved many more zonata from the same fate.

Ever since I've been in AZ I haven't had one case of it and I have alot of zonata, all sub-species. However, if it were to hit me again (God forbid) I wouldn't hesitate to euthanize the affected snake.

PL

I spend most of the year in the field with zonata being one of the most often snakes I seek to observe. They are my favorite herp and always have been. I've found somewhere around 1400 of them in the past 25 years in the wild throughout their range, except Ore and WA. I've have found the disease in the wild in two different mountain ranges in So. Cal. Two were found the same day on Mount Palomar in separate rock outcroppings. The other was 3 specimens the same day in the San Bernardino Mountains in the same rock outcropping. I found a very young adult that had the severe bad skin and nerve problems. under the rock next to were that snake was found was a very large adult pair. Both of those snakes were in the same bad shape. None of the 3 snakes could crawl without going in to violent shakes. I have been to both mountain ranges several times since then and have found perfectly fine animals in the same rock piles.

There's more questions than answers when it comes to "Mountain King Disease'. My intent is to share my experiences and not influence Stu or anyone else what to do with their animals or how to handle their problems. Unfortunately, anyone working with zonata will most likely have the problem hit eventually. It's a risk we take working with them. It's up to whomever to do what they want if their zonata were succumb to this awful and painful event. Hope this brings a little more light to the table.

PL

violently also displaying the skin symptoms that accompany z disease.

Hi Collin,

Yeah, they all had the dried up winkled bad shed skin. I know one herper that also found a couple "Diseased' zonata in the San Bernardino Mnts who at the time had a decent sized zonata collection. Only he collected the sick snakes (WTF?????) and the "disease" spread like a wildfire throughout his Z's eventually killing about 2/3 of them. It's something not to mess with.

PL

Paul, that is very interesting that the when that person collected ( I agree WTF) those diseased z's that they spread it to the rest of his collection. That is the first I have heard of that and casts a doubt to my, and others, theory of conditions causing the disease.

Joe

I've seen it a few times too, and tried to fight the first couple ones and like Paul, have no prob sticking one in the freezer now. I had a parv that was in my collection for 8 years, in oct. I had a group of 2.1 given to me-(one was an anery. only reason I wanted the animals) my animals were just cooling, that group went right into the room. They were fine when looking at them. A couple weeks into cooling, I checked through them, the male had the very very bad skin. The anery was just doing loops over itself, very rigid,etc etc. The animal I already had for 8 years was in a tub just above the new group, looked at her, and the same exact rigid body, rolling over. I was bummed, I took that one, and the group of 3, frooze them all. Super bummed.

I hatched a clutch back in '05 or '06. There were 5 eggs. I kept 1.1, gifted the rest. One of my friends called me a couple months later saying the female he got had the probs, and frooze it, he sent me the male back, it was fine-(and went to another friend who had the 5th litter mate) the pair I kept still fine, and the others. that case is a poss. of conditions, or husbandry probs ???.

As for the animals in the field. I remember Paul telling me that, and the guy who collected the pair also told me about that and how it fuc#ed up other Z's he already had. I know another field herper who has seen it in the San Bernardinos also. It is a bad thing, and like Paul said, sometimes will take out your prized animal!

I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread offering their expertise and suggestions.

The 2 that showed symptoms first and have shed 3 times still have some wrinkled belly scales and slightly dimpled head plates but seem to be improving. The second 2 that started showing these symptoms later each shed for their 3rd time last night. I am encouraged because they had complete unassisted sheds and although still exhibit symptoms appear to be improving.

I'm still not convinced as to what this condition is and what caused it. But I don't think it's solely a husbandry problem. Out of 6 snakes only 4 have exhibited this condition and the others have not. I'm keeping them in identical enclosures and conditions so I would think if it is something I am doing wrong then they would all show some symptoms. I don't think it's zonata disease because although I don't have any experience with zonata disease from what everyone has told me the symptoms seem to be different. I'm really leaning towards the theory that it is a stress induced condition because they are just a more sensitive species. I think the stress is reduced as they acclimate hence the improvement in their appearance and condition as time progresses. We will see.

I have contacted the breeder and discussed this issue at great length with him. Although we concluded that we still don’t know what this is he did however offer to take the animals back and work with them. I appreciate his offer but decided to work with them myself. Everyone that participated in this thread has made some good suggestions some of which I’m already doing and others that I will consider incorporating.

Thanks again to all!

Stu Tennyson

Good deal Stu. Glad to see they are doing better and that the breeder is working with you on this mattter. Keep us posted as to how things turn out.

Joe

Thanks for the update.

Herpetoculturists tend to want to box everything up and slap a label on it. That is all well and good, but we should remember that dehydration is common in many diseases/conditions, so it is therefore likely that different diseases/conditions might manifest similar symtomologies. Throw on top of that the potential for different subspecies or even populations to react differently and it gets very complex very fast, especially considering none of us are making any controlled observations. We are just trying to keep our snakes alive. To that end it would be great if you could come back and post up what x,y, and z things you did and any observations you made once your zoanata have recovered.
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Rick Staub

to give some follow up after their next shed cycles with pics. Stu

My heart sank when I read your post. Your snakes are showing textbook classic signs for a disease known as zonata disease. Snakes show dry, wrinkly skin, continual shedding, and eventually neurological signs and death. Although the cause or agent is currently unknown, it is most likely a viral disease. Unfortunately, there is no cure and these snakes should be culled immediately to prevent the spread of this fatal disease.

If I were in your shoes, I would be livid at whoever you got the snakes from. First off, they probably have other snakes in their collection showing similar symptoms (probably wild caughts) and they withheld that information from you. That is true dishonestly and only an effort of human greediness. Secondly, since there is no cure these snakes and any snakes exposed to them should be culled. If this fatal disease goes through your collection, you can say farewell to your snakes and big hello to a lawsuit to the seller! You should do everyone in the community a favor by publicly announcing who was selling these diseased snakes so that everyone can avoid them! Good luck with your situation and I wish you the best!

J

I have been keeping track of this thread. I have no clue who the breeder may have been but I noticed that prior to the breakdown in communication, you mentioned the breeder offered to take the snakes back. I assume that included in that was also a refund. This is obviously a sign of a breeder who is communicating. While you may hold a grudge, this breeder does appear, from those statements alone to wish to work with you and help you.

I also notice mention of them improving. Stress can be an AMAZING thing. I have seen numerous animals show up on my doorstep as rescues and they go through some rough first few months. I have seen weekly sheds by snakes that is mindboggling, but that I attribute to being a stress related to the change.

I am gathering many of you may know who originally bred the snakes and are jumping the bandwagon on the attacks. I personally have no clue who this breeder is, but all the bandwagon jumping will stop.

I would venture to say stress may be a major contributing factor to what is going on. While I cant find much on Zonata disease, I have heard that there are neuro issues related to it as well. From what little I know about this group of snakes, they are somewhat more easily stressed and tend to dehydrate easy.

If the condition continues to improve, I would assume personally that it is related to the stress of change and not something the breeder has in their collection. However I will also say the secretive attacks on a breeder will not last here. You all know how I and kingsnake feel on personal attacks.
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Cindy Steinle
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O'K. no more attacks. However, I think I can speak for everyone involved I (we) don't buy one word of what you've said. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

PL

Also the buyer clearly stated that the breeder said he would take back the snakes and work with them. The buyer said no refund was ever offered. I appreciate the moderator's opinion, but they missed the point that no refund was offered and the buyer didn't like the option of being left with no snakes and no money which is very understandable. Sorry, but I smell bias here and that's my opinion of which I am entitled too.

>>Also the buyer clearly stated that the breeder said he would take back the snakes and work with them. The buyer said no refund was ever offered. I appreciate the moderator's opinion, but they missed the point that no refund was offered and the buyer didn't like the option of being left with no snakes and no money which is very understandable. Sorry, but I smell bias here and that's my opinion of which I am entitled too.

You can say bias all you want, but I dont really care. What I care about is personal attacks going away. Obviously you all know who it is so it doesnt matter if the name was mentioned. It is done. This is not a debate. Offer advice on care for the animals but enough attacks on breeder.
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Cindy Steinle
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>>>You can say bias all you want, but I dont really care

If you didn't care, why did you retort? Why waste your time? Since you've come on here to stand up and defend this guy, my question is, why doesn't he come on here and give his side of the story? That's what I would like to see, just to be fair?

>>If you didn't care, why did you retort? Why waste your time? Since you've come on here to stand up and defend this guy, my question is, why doesn't he come on here and give his side of the story? That's what I would like to see, just to be fair?

Because if the breeder came forward, it again would be pulled.

Our terms of service are pretty clear on personal attacks, which is why I retorted. That will end. I am tolerant of many things, but personal attacks, named or unnamed are NOT tolerated.
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Cindy Steinle
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That's fine. I've not attacked anyone. No one has been named. So again, we have someone who posts here that got sick animals from someone you obviously know, and this someone won't give a refund but will take the animals back. Personally, I don't think that's a fair option for the buyer. Do you?

>>That's fine. I've not attacked anyone. No one has been named. So again, we have someone who posts here that got sick animals from someone you obviously know, and this someone won't give a refund but will take the animals back. Personally, I don't think that's a fair option for the buyer. Do you?

Again, I have no clue who this seller is. I dont keep up with zonota, I keep pythons. That is something between the seller and the buyer. NOT something that has ever been tolerated here at all. The difference is *I* give warnings. Discuss how to treat the snake or leave it be.
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Cindy Steinle
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Crap like this is the reason my postings here have become so limited.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>O'K. no more attacks. However, I think I can speak for everyone involved I (we) don't buy one word of what you've said. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
>>
>>PL

Personally dont care if you agree with me or not. What I care is keeping our TOS in tact and getting folks to act like adult.

That being said I also feel that if he is having problems still and that there have been problems, return the animals if you feel they are defective. Dont have a fit on a forum.

There I was far less tactful this time.
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Cindy Steinle
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I think maybe some folks on the "main" kingsnake forum might have some advise on care. Maybe we need to take this discussion over there.

Joe

Cindy,

I have made three posts on this whole thread, and all three have adressed only the topic at hand - the health of the animals and the very realistic responsibilty issue as well. After my last post I just sat back and watched things unravel. However, I'm taking great issue with a couple comments made in your above posts. First, you just made reference to the original poster, Stu, basically throwing a fit on this forum. How is that even remotely close to what has happened here? Stu has continually asked how to handle things health-wise with hus purchased sick snakes, and also has shared with this COMMUNITY the tragic lack of responsibility the seller has taken with respect to $3100 of unhealthy and possibly virus-riddeled snakes. He has yet to call names, nor at any moment disclose the identity of the seller (and yes, ALL of us know who it is, as well as you should too...seeing as how you've been cleaning up posts associated with him for years now). I believe Stu has shown a great deal of restraint and professionalism here considering how much money he is out, the threat to his current colony because of the possibility of a pathogen being sent to him, and the utter lack of respect (and unprofessional rude emails) shown to him by the seller with respect to problem resolution. To even insinuate that Stu has thrown a fit on the forum is simply unfair, and it also gives credence to the claims of others that bias from you towards the breeder is in fact legitimate. Whether this is true or not, I don't care, I'm simply stating how your comment towards Stu's 'fit' is probably being seen by our community.

Second, you mention that you work with pythons and know little of zonata. If this is the case, then how are you even qualified to come across so resolute that it's probably stress and not the fault of the breeder. You admitted yourself that you are inexperienced with zonata, so trying to explain to us that a well-known disorder that has historically been...

...known to eradicate whole colonies seems a bit preachy and with bias towards the breeder. I have thousands of hours, both field and lab associated, of experience with zonata and while part of me thinks this sickness is a syndrome sparked by stress, I also think there very well may be an underlying pathogen-based origin to it. Seeing as all studies cannot rule out a pathogen as a causal factor, it would be irresponsible to attribute everything to stress. Furthermore, because of this the seller should be showing and taking more responsibility here (instead of sending Stu harassing and rude emails).

I ask you this, Kingsnake and you preach that we ARE a community, but shouldn't the community be aware of not just diseases on our animals buy also diseased breeders that sully our hobby and hurt those that share our passion of herps? Just curious.

Mitch

>>...known to eradicate whole colonies seems a bit preachy and with bias towards the breeder. I have thousands of hours, both field and lab associated, of experience with zonata and while part of me thinks this sickness is a syndrome sparked by stress, I also think there very well may be an underlying pathogen-based origin to it. Seeing as all studies cannot rule out a pathogen as a causal factor, it would be irresponsible to attribute everything to stress. Furthermore, because of this the seller should be showing and taking more responsibility here (instead of sending Stu harassing and rude emails).
>>
I will only address emails that are sent through the kingsnake forum contact. Was this snake purchased off a kingsnake ad? If so file a complaint with our classified forum. We have protocol for bad deals that occur on our site. If they happen on craigs list or at shows, our protocols do little else. If Stu bought it via kingsnake classifieds, I suggest he contact classifieds@pethobbyist.com and file a complaint. And that goes for any other bad deal. Plain and simple. But here we go from one spectrum of the animals getting better to everyone, Stu included complaining about a bad dealer.
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Cindy Steinle
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>>I ask you this, Kingsnake and you preach that we ARE a community, but shouldn't the community be aware of not just diseases on our animals buy also diseased breeders that sully our hobby and hurt those that share our passion of herps? Just curious.
>>

Aware of the diseases yes, but there is little documented about this that I could find short of forum posts on a variety of forums. I can speak to the stress because I have seen the exact condition across a variety of species, including kings and corns, but also pythons and boas. Rescue shows you a lot of different things, but the most amazing thing is the adjustment stress visible on some animals. I spent a bit of time trying to look into this, but as I stated, unless it is under some other name, very little is documented. As to calling out breeders, you have been here probably longer than the 11 years I have put into the site. NEVER EVER have we allowed "bad dealer" type of posts. The difference now is that I do not ban for people posting. I come here and tell you all to stop it.

Now if there are studies on this disease, please share. I personally would be interested in reading it. The vast majority I am seeing in google searches as I state was forum posts with people not referencing much.
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Cindy Steinle
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Wow, I thought this was a forum for the exchange of information, and betterment of the hobby. Evil flourishes when good people sit back and do nothing. Are we in China, or is this site run by the Vatican?

Maybe KS outsourced and they're moderating from China? Ah shucks. Well, with this kind of censorship, I might as well move there since there's more money there any way. Stu, would love to get updates on these animals (if the posts don't get deleted).

>>Maybe KS outsourced and they're moderating from China? Ah shucks. Well, with this kind of censorship, I might as well move there since there's more money there any way. Stu, would love to get updates on these animals (if the posts don't get deleted).

Ya know, I find this amusing. But note, the only messages that I am pulling are related to the breeder. In fact I am allowing you to take shots at me. If this were China or nazis as some people like to indicate from non-registered emails, I would just start banning all accounts that question me.

Posts relating to the care of the animals, the continued care are not being removed. Posts that reference the breeder having diseased stock are not. Posts that reference the breeder being a dirt bag are not.

You may not like this, but I promise, there will come a day that someone will not be happy with you and this will be a comfort.
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Cindy Steinle
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Cindy,

Please don’t take offense to this but I feel a need to respond. I feel as though you have falsely assumed some things (you know what happens when you assume something) and unfairly accused me of throwing a “fit”. I think I have shown a considerable amount of restrain on this forum. I would also like to point out that at no time was I ever offered a refund nor did I say I was offered one. The breeder only offered to take the animals back to work with them and said he would return them. This offer was only made after much heated discussion between us and I felt there was a risk of not only getting my money back but maybe not getting my snakes back either. I played this down a bit on the forum because I was not wanting to make this a big personal issue as much as I was trying to get some help dealing with this disease so you may have gotten the wrong idea. You mention that you think this could be stress related. It may be but if it happened within a week of receiving these animals then at what point does responsibility end with the breeder and begin with the customer? Even Petsmart offers at least a 30 day guarantee!

Although we have never met I can tell by what you have written that you are trying to do the right thing here. But when we try to do the right thing we should be correct in what we say and do and be quick to apologize if we are wrong.

Thank you,

Stu Tennyson

What did I violate with my last post? Why was that pulled? Are you kidding me.

Joe

>>What did I violate with my last post? Why was that pulled? Are you kidding me.
>>
>>Joe

All references to breeder are being pulled. I think that was made clear.
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Cindy Steinle
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Correction, Petco and Petsmart both offer 7 day. I have been only offered a 7 day.

Discuss the disease all you want. Discuss treatment all you want. DO NOT discuss the breeder. I am not sure where I can get more clear. Saying the breeder is working with you in one thread and then saying he is not communicating in another to me is pitching a fit. Either he is or isnt. But either way, that stays off this forum.
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Cindy Steinle
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Cindy,

As the moderator of this forum, I expect, as well as I'm sure everyone else does, that you maintain the highest standard and integrity when handling posts that Kingsnake.com might deem problematic. Over the years I've seen you intervene on countless occasions. Most of the time I find your handling of the situation to be fair and without bias. However, with respect to this situation, and others that have involved one common element, I feel as though you are demonstrating an inordinate and shameless amount of bias towards one party, or have lost sight of the importance and influence these threads have on the herpetological and herp hobbyist communities.

You have given us your blessing to discuss the biology of the disease/syndrome, it's effect on our colonies, and it's resulting psychological effect on each keeper having to deal with it, but you have banned outright any discussion of the source of an outbreak. Please, keep in mind, that if I reference a 'breeder' from this point on it is not the one 'who shall not be named', but instead a hypothetical cog to a critical point that I'm hoping will not fall on your deaf ears. As you and everyone else knows, from either personal experience or through word-of-mouth, that disease can decimate years of our blood, sweat and tears in a matter of days or weeks, by killing most if not all of our collection. If you get a bad case of cryptosporidium you can lose almost every individual in your collection. When these events occur, the first thing we do is damage control, but then we try to find out why it might have happened and where it originated from. The same formula is used by doctors worldwide, and most importantly by the WHO (World Health Organization). If an outbreak of ebola or smallpox were to ever occur in a first-, second-, or third-world country, not only would they identify the outbreak, isolate the infected, and try to control the spread of the virus, but they would absolutely attempt to....

...identify the source. It is imperative in such a situation to know where the disease originated from so that further outbreaks can be managed or stopped outright. You, myself, and everyone else reading this knows that whenever a case of mad cow disease is mad public, the local health authorities always identify the source of the infection. They don't identify the source to publicly humiliate or to draw ridicule their way, but instead they identify the source of the outbreak so that others that have visited the eatery can be made aware that they might have been exposed to a deadly prion that reduces you to a quivering bag of ugly water (a reference that some might enjoy!). I argue here, and I believe that I'm speaking for the majority of people that frequent this forum, that the identification of any breeder that is selling, trading, or gifting snakes with a possible pathogen that could wipe out our entire colony, is critical to halt the spread of such a disease. Imagine if those who govern our society choose to not disclose similar information to us...those agencies would be condemned and everyone would call for their heads on a stick (a little gruesome, but I think you can appreciate my flare for the dramatic...because if you have children, and one of them died because of an illness, and an agency with knowledge had not disclosed information that could have saved your child's life...all because they didn't want the feelings of the source to be hurt...well, you'd want blood...as would all of us). It is imperative that we as a society share information that betters the health of everyone involved. Within our society we absolutely and always share information of probable and possible sources of a disease, as that's what prosperous and advanced societies do - we realize that sick and diseased societies should be avoided whenever possible. Why should we treat our reptile collections any different? Many of us dedicate more time to our animals than we do...

...to ourselves. Many of us anthropomorphize with our animals to the point of giving each and every one of them names. We'll spend thousands of dollars on sick animals, not because we have the funds to do so (most of the time we don't), but simply because we don't even consider that there is an alternative that considers letting them die. So, because so many of us hold the animals in our collection so dear, why in the world would it be a bad thing to identify the source of a potentially lethal disease? Wouldn't we be enabling further pestilence and death if we only sat around and discussed how horrible things were, but did nothing to halt the spread of a devastating disease? Furthermore, if an organization such as WHO, because of not releasing the source of an outbreak, resulted in the deaths of thousands more, wouldn't they be condemned by our society and ostracized as ineffective and devoid of morality. Well, Kingsnake.com is the equivalent of WHO in the reptile world. It is a collective of individuals that originate from all corners of our planet. We share information on Kingsnake.com, we share ideas, and we also share our animals. Through the classifieds, and even thru the forums (some use this as a free means of advertisement), animals are sent from point A to point B. Thousands upon thousands of humans use this site as a place to share knowledge and to trade and sell our beloved reptiles. Whether you as a moderator agree with me or not, Kingsnake.com is a focal point for the health of the reptile hobby and should recognize themselves as such. To be so obtuse to simply ban the discussion of a potential source of a lethal disease is both irresponsible and morally defective. With that said, I do think that release of information regarding the potential origin of a disease such as zonata disease should be done with class and respect, I do believe it should be public information nonetheless. Yes, some of the posts deleted within this thread were...

Once again

This is a terms of service that everyone agreed to when they registered on the site:

Using Connected By Pets to post warnings or notices about other persons or businesses, whether a Connected By Pets classified vendor or not, is a violation and may be grounds for immediate termination of your account.
Posting personal attacks about individuals is a violation. We welcome discussion and debate on our forums; however, we ask that you stick to the issues, not the other users of the site.

It is clear as day. So discuss the disease, the causes, the treatments. But the dealers is not something kingsnake.com is interested in dealing with. This has been a long standing policy of our site.

I have included a link to the terms of service. Feel free to refresh yourself. This is not an issue I will compromise on.
Terms of service

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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We do not discuss the actions against a specific account in public nor do we discuss it publicly. That violates our privacy clause. If you wish to discuss actions with you specific posts, a member can question privately via email to phfaust@pethobbyist.com.

That being said, a variety of posts will occasionally disappear to no fault of their own because they were in a response to a post that did violate.

Again, go back to the discussion of the animal, disease, treatment and care.
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Cindy Steinle
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