Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is an important question. And its one that has or should change over time. You know, as we learn and progress.

Many keepers critize methods of keeping based on a precieved longevity goal. When the methods of keeping are successful, I have to now question the importance of longevity or more importantly how it related to natural varanids and to captive varanids.

In captivity, longevity was a measure of success base of the fact, we in captivity could not keep them alive. So we measured days, then months, then years, then decades.

In 1970 I worked at Ross Allens Reptile inst. There was a researcher who visited and was doing a survey on longevity in snakes. He surveyed all the U.S. zoos.

He said, the average longevity for snakes( what I was interested in that at time) was two years. He followed that statement with, it took that long for snakes to perish when kept in poor conditions.

At that time I was several generations into breeding certain species of colubrids.

Years later, I worked at the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum, ASDM.

I worked in both exhibits and the reptile department. At that time 1972 to 77, I was now more generations into many colubrids, much like I did with varanids.

One higher up was very interested in eggs, that was his major, so we talked extensively. He wondered why the folks in the reptile department were not ding snakes. So he hired me to do so and to critique on the department.

So I did, I researched the departments records and discovered the average lifespan was that aprox 2 years. What was odd was, there were many many individuals that were euthanized.

So I researched longevity records.

So in the past longevity was a yardstick of captive success. That was not considering events like reproduction. Which was rare at the time.

If you researched the records, all or nearly all long lived individuals were males. And in most cases, undermetabolized to a point they never reached normal adult size. I could not find a record for females, muchless breeding females.

Back to the present. So what do longevity records represent? How long an animal lives or how much life an animal has experienced.

So when I started working with monitors, I include, "basic life events" which include growth and reproduction, plus longevity.

It seems those concerned with fruitless longevity don't or rarely produce animal.

There are those like Crocdoc that keep a pair(?) and see how long they can control the same events over and over, many zoos did that as well, and there is nothing wrong with that, but theres nothing really right about it either.

For instance, its of great interest to me to explore there potential, for instance how many clutches can they produce in a lifetime, and it doesn't matter how long that may be, or not.

It becomes about selective reasoning, you pick success is how long an animal lives, and I think about how much an animal participates in its ecosystem. How much it contributes and for how long.

As I mentioned, there is little to no information on this from nature.

My bet is, the majority of wild female lacies, or any species for that matter, do not reproduce for more then five years in nature. And we exceeded that without problem. Even with our horrible desert conditions.

So any real thoughts on this folks? Thanks

FR:" There are those like Crocdoc that keep a pair(?) and see how long they can control the same events over and over, many zoos did that as well, and there is nothing wrong with that, but theres nothing really right about it either.
For instance, its of great interest to me to explore there potential..."

I see. Keeping healthy, reproducing monitors is 'nothing really right' but pushing them to the point of killing them through reproductive failure is of great interest to you.

FR:" ...for instance how many clutches can they produce in a lifetime, and it doesn't matter how long that may be, or not.

It becomes about selective reasoning, you pick success is how long an animal lives, and I think about how much an animal participates in its ecosystem. How much it contributes and for how long. "

The point you keep missing, FR, much to my amazement is that my lone female has produced more clutches in her lifetime than yours, has been contributing to its 'ecosystem' by contributing way more babies than yours. And when I say 'yours' I mean all of yours. Every lace monitor you've ever kept. This has been discussed in other posts, below.

Crocdoc your so friggin prejudiced its amazing. And naive too.

If you would bother to ask questions and think, it would be much much better for both of us.

WHat is different where I live compared to where you live? heat you think????? its really hot here.

Guess what, we keep lacies in indoor outdoor cages, where they can get to as much heat as they want. And we offer cool, but simply cannot get it real cool. Its friggin hot here, think Marble bar.

Whats odd is, our lacies choose heat over cool at all costs. That is, they will sit in the sun until they pant. Then if we mist them or spray them, they look at me like I am crazy and go right back to HEAT. ITs their frogging choice. Which was a huge surprise to me. Before I got them, I THEORIZED, they would pick cooler temps, based on where they come from. Sir, that did not happen.

I am not a control freak, I offer conditions and the monitors take them as they want. When they use heat, they must feed, so we feed them, which causes them to lay eggs over and over and over. If we do not feed them, they die trying to keep laying eggs, I know, I have tried to stop them from multiclutching, its simply does not work, because its tooooooo hot. So I do not force anything on them, they pick it. They have a choice, unlike your indoor monitors. Ours can move indoors and slow down, they just don't.

I have lots of questions for you. Is it true that southern lacies get bigger then northern lacies?????? Is it true that southern lacies lay fewer larger clutches then nothern lacies?

I wonder if there is as difference in lifespan or reproductive lifespan between southern and northern laces?????? I wonder what is the natural reproductive lifespan of any wild lacie is??????? can you answer that??????

Sir, please answer those questions, as they are very important.

Next, do you think if there is a difference between the reproductive stradgy is it conditional or genetic. That is, if a southern lacie was expose to the greater amount of heat in the north, would it have more smaller clutches, or would it stay the same????? Or is a northern lacie was expose to the cooler temps of the south, would it change to getting larger and having fewer larger clutches??????

YOu do understand thats its common where a species has a long north south range to follow that stradgy.

Now on a personal basis, I do not force anything, I offer conditons and support the animals choices, as best I can. I do not hibernate, or cycle them in any way to promote reproduction. They do what they do on their own. So how do you call that forcing??????????

Unlike you that put them down and bring them up and do all sort of control measures. which you do because you THEORIZE thats how it should be. So its you that force conditions, I just offer choices and support their decisions.

If you would use your brain, and I know you have one, you just do not want to use it. Our conditions here are hotter then where lacies live around Carins, and much colder then the southern most laices. Its a bit confusing to the animals. But its not always colder, this year, its a very warm winter, it only froze a few nights so far. Last winter, we hit 10F a couple nights, killed off lots and lots of native cactus. And went below freezing 48 nights.

So please, use your brain before you spout off your mouth.

The only thing I do is FEED, and if you call that forcing, well, we surely do not agree on that. I call feeding, SUPPORT, not forcing.

In my opinion, you are the one controlling your animals, I give them choices. I guess I beleive in them, and you believe in you. I also guess, I believe in them and not in you. Is that good enough for you? So I will keep supporting what the animals choose to do, and not give a hoot about what you say or think.

ALso at this point, I have far more longevity records that you, but then, you only have a pair of monitors. Cheers

As I've said before, if you'd started this conversation about how conditions are different where you are because of the heat (or because of the cold, for you seem to go either way at times), rather than try to convince me that wild lace monitors don't nest in termite mounds, the whole conversation might have gone in a different, more meaningful direction and we could have discussed ways of dealing with that.

I've already mentioned that a good mate of mine has his females nesting outdoors in mounds of dirt, rather than nest boxes, but he lives in the tropics where his ground temperature is just right for nesting throughout the breeding season. Where I live, heating the entire substrate to a nesting temperature would be keeping the species too warm - I'd rather they have the option of going from hot basking spot to cooler areas if they want to retreat. Mates that house their lace monitors outdoors in Australia, but live outside the tropics, use nest boxes.

As for how other keepers might absorb the information in this discussion, that presents an interesting consideration. Here in Australia, lace monitor keepers usually have their animals housed outdoors and I'm one of the exceptions. Given that most of the readers of this forum aren't in Australia, but in the US and Canada, do you think that if any of them were to get ahold of some lace monitors they'd end up housing them indoors, as I do, or outdoors, as you do? Much of the USA (and all of Canada) is unsuitable for housing lace monitors outdoors, so in all likelihood they'd be housed indoors and they'd have the same options of controlled conditions that I have, without the climate 'problems' you face.