Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So a few people did ask me what I have done to prepare for my new hatchling when it arrives, so here it is.

I have been using this off time wisely (I hope)

I wired in a GFI to prevent any issues with humidity and electricity..

Applied 5 coats of wood sealer to all the untreated plywood to prevent mold.

I dumped in some forest floor.

I made this basking platform with a ramp & put in the half log hide..

The funny colour is the light reflecting off the water..

Burrow opening... there are two.

top reading Ambient, middle is Basking, Bottom humidity.

I used 2 bags of carpentry grade hot glue sticks to seal this cage up tight, installed rubber weather strips around the door.

The entire enclosure is double wall with insulation to keep it temp stable..

Now it's just a waiting game for the eggs to hatch and my new baby sav can move in.

Meanwhile, I have been checking on the humidity and temps every day to ensure stability within.

Thanks for looking....

..

-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Hi Wayne, I like it, I like the fact you`ve been getting sa much info as possible on these animals and their needs, and best of all, I think the monitor can flourish in that!
If I had a criticism (I always do), it would just be that you could have made the thing a little sturdier, aren`t you worried the hatchling Savannah monitor might well break out???

Pretty awesome, dude!

It looks perfect the way it is. Although some shelves could add a lot of vertical useful space, which the monitor would probably make good use.

My restless brain has already been on that...

My friend has a saw mill, and the "slab wood" seems ideal to make some nice monitor shelves.

My idea is to mount the wood with the curved (bark) side facing up.

This would emulate big logs without the weight.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

It's a good thing you plan this out. Here if there is any serge in the power out put, it turns off the electricity in parts where it is overloading. Strangely enough, it has never done that where I have kept my reptiles...only in my room and the other room, and sometime just the living room where the large screen TV is and my sister's room. A fire can easily broke out if there is no circuit breaker. I've heard that's common with people that keep reptiles and can easily happen to anyone. There are a lot of old houses where I live and you wouldn't believe how many times I've heard fire trucks driven by...

There was a zoological facilities in Australia, that got burned down. They lost a lot of animals. I think it was one of the episode of the "Crocodile Hunter".

nice effort Wayne, but a few points that may help.

One deep substrate is the mass that holds the humidity animal uses. Its not really about the humidity of the air.

Burrows in substrate, monitors perfer to dig their own burrows. The reason is, the manner in which they dig them FITS their body exactly. They will use many burrows to suit the needs at the time.

Also one of the main tasks burrows do is provide a usable temp gradient, so they should have the ability to burrow under the hot area. Monitors perfer to bask hidden most of the time. Having that choice makes for a much more stable monitor. The less stressed a monitor is, the more likely it will NOT need to hide.

ALso, you did not address the reason you last monitor was chronically dehydrated.

The farther the heat lamps are from the basking surface, the more air is heated and that is the cause of your monitors problems

The key to a good cage is, the ability to have deep substrate, and be very versitile. That is, have big doors to move and change things as needed. Be water tight so they do not age quickly.

Lastly, your seperate areas leaflitter, etc, will not work, as the monitor will move and mix it all up, and very quickly. IF ITS HEALTHY.

The only real flaw I see is not having the ability to use deeper substrate.

Maybe you should read Auffenburgs Komodo book, it has GREAT diagrams of typical monitor burrows and their uses. Of course, yours would be smaller, but exactly the same. Best of luck

So it won't hold enough substrate?

Those aluminum panels in the back are 30 inches from floor to the support beam, so with a little creative sloping....

What you cannot see is that the two small burrows I already provided are filled with loose clay soil, so the baby will have to dig to enlarge it himself.

Right now it is set up for a hatchling baby, in the wild they seek out existing burrows and take them over.

It will be well into summer before I need to shovel more dirt in there...

I have been running environmental measurements daily, and the humidity is holding strong without any help aside from watering the grass, the conditions are stable as a rock.

anything else?

-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

YOu are so weird, first off, its not about me or for me, or for you, its for your dang monitor.

Secondly, sloping does not work. You will find out why.

Lastly, good luck and I should have known better then to say anything to you.

And mine.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

i just don't get why you people sit and argue with frank all he is trying to do is help yes he can be a pain in the a$$ but he does no what hes talking about so where is this bull[bleep] talking getting you guys nowhere.

-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Hi Wayne,
I believe you have around 60cm of soil substrate with some leaves and growing grass in parts? That sounds fine, it doesn`t matter if the monitor mixes it all up, that`s what monitors like to do (I think deliberately, just to make a mess)...
And one last point; Savannah monitors are not unique, they do things, and need the same things as most other Varanid species, so without taking sides, it doesn`t matter if a person has kept this species or not, the advise is still relevant, if the conditions needed are very similar!

He got FR right there! [chuckle]

How many people from Frank Retes to the guys at proexotics swear up and down after the utmost success with many species, that aside from minor humidity and cage orientations, a monitor is a monitor. So Frank doesn't spend time with savs, there are plenty of other species to get the experience from.

But the real point is that it is a waste of time to bicker so much. "Frank doesn't like savs", "Paradon doesn't keep monitors", "blah blah". Seriously, it's ridiculous to have to sift through all this nonsense in nearly every post. Come on guys lets get over it. E.L.E.

Caleb

Hi teguman, I don`t see anyone "arguing" with Frank R.?
I see someone asking for advise, someone offering it, then the asker clarified what he was planning to do/had done, and suddenly it all got quite ridiculous for some reason??(I think it`s just a silly misunderstanding, a clash of egos)!

Nor will I ever.

By his own admissions, He has killed more monitors than most of us will ever see in a lifetime.
-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Thamnophis.co
Thamnophis dot net

too many darn snakes to list anymore...

Its not a clash of egos, I have no evolvement in him what so ever.

When he came here with his last Sav. I warned him that his Sav was not right. he gave me all the grief in the world.

His prized Sav died from exactly what I was warning him about.

So now its the messenger thats the problem.

Now hes building a cage with the same problem, not as bad, but all in all, a beef jerky machine. So now I am an arse again.

Its his ego and its his monitor. That he is too egotistic to take advice, is without question his problem. It surely is not mine.

Like you, WE hate to see innocent monitors die, so we try and help.

That these type of folks make it about people is senseless and shameful. Too bad.

And yea, I have an attitude, I have tried to help these folks for decades and they are pretty much all the same. You know, they are so good and experienced, yet they kill off varanids.

We tell them varanids are not snakes, but they refuse to listen, cause they are good with snakes. oh well, say goodbye to another Sav. Cheers

Hi Frank R.,
You`ve been offering help on these forums for much longer than I have, so it`s much more frustrating for you when the insults start flying.
I guess it`s hard being told you did it all wrong, and unless you start listening instead of talking, it will happen again.
I know your advise is good, you`re talking from personal experience and the knowledge gained from that over many, many years, which is as good as it gets.
Tell the Savannah monitors keepers the species can take vertebrates (including RODENTS) and remain healthy, long lived and productive, as I`m trying to do, that REALLY gets "them" going.. Why do I bother? For the ANIMAL`S sake, just like you!

First, WRC, Im not sure where you get your information from. Boscs do live with clay soils. Savannah soils generally are higher in clays, and the grasslands of Ghana are no different. Look it up from those wonderful, reliable scientists that are so often made fun of on this forum. Clay also holds more water than other soil types, though once it loses its water content it does become very dry. However, the key point here is that dekay has his humidity holding at a high level anyway. The rest of what you say is just cosmetic preference so, who cares?

FR, your argument, like most of the ones Ive read here, are so circular and make little sense. Of course deep substrate holds humidity. However, if the air doesnt have that same level of humidity, where the heck do you think all that moisture in the soil is gonna go?! Ill give you two guesses and the first one isnt 'into his water dish'.

You then go on to state that the heat lamps are too far away...because that will dry out the air. Huh? Now wait a second. Didnt you just say that it was the soil that makes the difference not the air? So why are you telling him that now its the air that is the cause of his monitor problems? He also said that his humidity was stable at 81%, so how is this even a part of the discussion anyway?

You then go on to say that you think he is personally "weird", but then say its not personal. Again, you seem to be chasing your own tail. In the end, the one piece of useful information, that his substrate needs to be deeper than it presently is, gets lost in all the other nonsense. (and I believe he said he would be putting more soil in when the spring thaw comes in a month- keeping in mind that he doesnt even have the monitor yet! )

Of course my arguements are circular, they always lead back to the success of the captive monitor. All other examples are attempts to explain how that works.

And clay soils are everywhere, but it that where they are making their burrows. All monitors in nature are very choosy about where they place their burrows.

Like everything, its not A or Z, its the amount of clay, most here do not understand that.

They are also choosy as to what they perfer in captivity.

The actual point is not about clay or any other bullshat soil types, its about whether the monitor chooses it or not.

Burrows tend to be breathing soils as the monitors are often enclosed in those soil burrows for long periods.

Soils that seal, non breathing, will simply suffocate them.

Lastly your friends the experts are great, except they suck with captives and are paper experts.

On paper, it does not matter if they are right or wrong. In application with captives, it does matter and there is a result, the result is expressed by the animal.

Many of those highly educated folks argue for the sake of arguing, which is at the cost of the animals, as you can see, I am a fighter, I argue with my fists, and my fists are the monitors.

In most cases, those folks use monitors to confirm some theory thats on paper. They don't like me because I use the monitors to confirm the monitors.

About the humidity in the soil, what a goofball, it evaporates to the air, which is the stinking point. But, the air, does not need to have a level of humidity higher then the soil, thats one huge reason monitors LIVE in burrows. They normally choose a base humidity of aprox 50%, its those burrows that they spend the vast majority of time in. Go check

I hope you have the ability to understand that. But most likely not. Best wishes.

Oops, sorry I was off learning from people who have been studying monitors in the wild. Didnt notice your response until now.

First, to the soils issue. You are right, it is about what the monitor chooses. And since Wayne has no monitor, how is it you are able to say what it will chose? Do you magically know the clay content of Wayne's soil? Maybe his exact clay content is what it will love. You cant say anymore than I could. You're not the monitor anymore than I am. What I said was that there is a high level of clay in savannah grasslands, so the comment that other guy made about clay soils being worthless is simply not true.

Since you are quoting monitors in the wild Frank, and their preferences, what is your experience with wild monitors? I know you have raised quite a few in captivity. I also know that you have killed more monitors than I will ever see in a lifetime. As you call them, my friends, the experts, they all have years of field experience with these animals as they should be. That all your experience is with captive animals is not something I see as a positive thing. That none of those experts have killed off as many animals as you is also a trend in the right direction.

In the end, it is you who argue for the sake of arguing Frank. You can see that by the fact that none of the experts in the field of herpetology or varanid studies are still on this forum. They dont bother with you anymore. One by one they have given up on you and left you to be king of BS. They dont debate with you because you never learn anything new; youre always convinced youre right. Instead they go off to study animals in the wild to see if what they think is actually true or not. Thats called the scientific method. You have a theory, then you go test it, then you write an article so that everyone can review both methodology and results. Otherwise its just all conjecture and heresay... like your posts for instance.

By the way, "goofball"? Really? Thats just sad Frank

i by no means am an expert i also have claimed to be any such thing i know a little here and there and we do learn alot from each other which is the reason were here right. i have been reading this thread for a while and have neglected to post just because the post is not informative its just a BASH FRANK post i am by no means defending anyone but i feel we could all learn alot more with less arguing and more opinionated facts.all i keep reading is frank has killed more monitors than ill see in a lifetime but no one cares to look at the ratio of how many monitors he has owned vs the amount dead. i dont know any of this information nor do i care i think this thread should be stopped and we all move on with a little more respect for each other and progress toward keeping our animals. this is not a pissing competition and i don't care whos D***k is bigger just move on please.

thanks
sorry if i offended anyone im just tired of every one bashing frank and he seems to me to be a very knowledgeable individual

charlie

Oh, I think Frank loves bashing people for the sake of bashing people. so I don't know what you are talking about. Other people can't even joke around... And He also told me he has no experience with Savannah monitors.

Hello Paradon,

The main problem with your posts is that you choose to direct them in a manner to insult respected, experienced monitor lizard keepers and you yourself have had a lizard. As in ONE. At that you acquired a sick one, fed it until you considered it healthy and then say you parted with it. No problem, I can buy the story. I have done the same before. But, that is not enough experience to help others maintain pairs, groups or breed monitor lizards. Furthermore, you actively involve yourself in debates by unloading rude insult after insult with no monitor lizard involvement and they are all lies. Fortunately for Frank, he has so much monitor lizard experience(can you recall 1962?) that he humbly differs having experience with a species or lizard when his experience with them is greater than your own but not up to his own goals. He helps monitors and keepers regardless of the tone of the debates- that is how information transfers at times. Insulting posts and snickering remarks do nothing to benefit the "life" of the debate, the lizards the real keepers and they are rude. Think over your posts before you choose to respond. Think of how they will affect others, the keepers and, most importantly, how it will impact their animals. I hope you will get back to keeping lizards and recharge your future postings with something actual and credible of character. Think it over.- Mike S

Thanks, but no worries, those folks do not bother me.

It is interesting that they do not help. I understand, I could use help comunicating what we see to others. let me tell you, its very very hard. Particularly when they do not see it.

We have tested many many many things, and some were harmful and others were very beneficual.

I will say, we have produced many many many many many more montiors then we lost.

The other thought is, you do this long enough, you will lose them all and yourself. Cheers

first of all, read the above, its about, keeping and breeding monitors in CAPTIVITY.

next, with your training in academics and debate, it would serve this comunity better if you could help me explain, how I achieved the captive success we HAVE ACHIEVED.

Not come here and run circles and confuse the real issues.

You see sir, this is a matter of life and dead, not yours or mine, but very much the lifes of thousands of monitors.

You see, I have no training in this area and could use your help, but your to concerned that an uneducated person such as myself has achieved much more then you and those others, IN CAPTIVITY, that you make it about egos, sad, very sad.

So how about making some attempt at being a valuable member of this comunity and help me bring success to the lifes of the monitors.

As you already know, I could give a frog about you, or others like you. Unless you actually make an attempt to improve the lifes of our wonderful captive monitors. Then I would actually care about you. Thanks for spending your valuable time here.

Aw, Stefan, if having scientific debates is such a hassle, then why bother? We all like to be right, its got nothing to do with your love of someone else's animal. Its not like feeding the occasional rodent is somehow saving Savannah monitors everywhere. Not to mention in all the discussions Ive seen you be a part of, its you who gets so very excited about things

As for your comment about all varanids being the same, I dont think you believe that if you stop for a moment. If that were true then you would keep a water monitor in the same habitat as a lacie or a komodo. Its not the same for all monitors, just like its not the same for any other highly varied family of animals. Savannahs are adapted to their environment in a specific way, otherwise that species would be all over the place. They arent though, they are in a very particular location, which we try to mimic with as much precision as possible. Suggesting that someone who knows a lot about one species also knows just as much about a totally different species isnt really very true.

That guy WEsley from Australia is a pretty good goana breeder. I think one of the best I have ever seeen. He and Steve Irwin bred some of the most endangered species and difficult to breed species.

Hi jarich,
considering you have all of one years experience with one Savannah monitor, you surely seem to think you have all the answers!?
If you truly had much knowledge you would understand that most species currently kept in captivity require much the same conditions; a very similar range of temps, a range of humidity, a whole prey diet, deep substrate for nesting, etc, etc, which means in their tiny boxes of dirt, things are pretty much the same for them all..
You`re a beginner with much still to learn....

Ah the same tired old argument. If I haven't kept them for decades then I can't possibly disagree with you. I wonder if this is the same argument with astrophysicists and astronauts?

What I do have is years of experience in scientific discourse. So you will notice that each time I disagree with your position it's not from any experience I personally have but rather from the examination of your own arguments. They so often are full of glaring inconsistencies and straw men, circular logic and a lack of evidence that it makes my position simple.

Also, I never said I know it all. What I said was there are very obvious differences between how the various species are adapted. On the contrary, I learn new things all the time! How about you?

Now regale us with the story of your vast experience. I'm sure it will prove that you will always be right, and that no one else could ever teach you anything.

You cleaned up good! [chuckle]

Hello Paradon,

Your post is short on information about savannahs and "know how." Do you have experience with many of them? Thanks- Mike S

Wouldn't bet on it, Mike.

Hello Paradon & Others,

We did keep a small group of savannah babies to raise up(young adults) exactly like many breeders keep ackies and they grew very fast feeding on crickets and pinky mice. I did not keep them longterm because a tornado took our roof away so they were given away to focus on the more pertinent issue... I have a short video of one of them when we moved them to an outside enclosure during the summer here. It's a neat video and you can see how alert and reponsive the videoed animal is even from a distance. When they are given enough heat I found that they could be maintained well on any whole foods that they would take so long as the vertebrate foods followed with the provision of enough heat to use the energy for growth.
Well, I hope this post is useful to some new keeper. This old information gets often sidestepped by people when they feel like they are treading new ground. It's exciting to keep monitors though. That's really why we all come to these sites... Best to You- Mike S

OF course they do need heat because they're reptiles. Everybody knows that. That's why I try to keep my reptile room warm during the winter. I hear they have ceramic heater on sale for only 8 dollars. I'm gonna get more as soon as i get paid.

Hello Paradon,

You may know that light bulbs can work better than those ceramic heaters as a heat source and do the job more efficiently even if they are for heating you reptile room... Best to You- Mike S

Actually, light bulbs are good for basking, raising the temperature in one spot, but the air temperature still has to be reasonable. If it feel chilly to you, then it's too cold for them; they're ectotherm, remember? That's why opened top cage is no good for keeping reptiles because it allows heat to escape. However, you can't keep a large monitor in a small enclosed cage. You probably need a well heated, room size cage for a large size animals. This is why I don't recommend to newcomer to get monitor like the ASian monitors.

Hello Paradon,

This is a very respectable post. I can see that you are trying to gain(here) and give an understanding. Please post more in this manner. Also, I do agree that large monitors like Asian water monitors do require an understanding of the lizards needs, the dynamics of heat distribution in a large enclosure and alot of power to heat(expensive). A keeper can use tool like a Tempgun to accurately measure the temperatures within an enclosure. If you haven't heard of that before you can google it. Also, the open or screen tops not only allow heat from your hot basking spot to rise out but also the humidity that your monitor requires to stay hydrated. Do you have any experiences with your monitor on/in a deep substrate cage? Your monitor must have meant alot to you because you have posted here since keeping it meaning it left you impressioned... What is it that you remember or liked about it the most? What did you like about savannahs the most? Best to You- Mike S

I'd swap out that dry clay crap substrate and put in more of a soil/sand mixture. Varanus exanthematicus doesn't live on clay.

Put some effort into mixing up some sand and something like eco earth coconut fiber. It holds humidity and burrows better than the crap clay does. You'll want to add more than you currently have in there. Just because they are young doesn't mean they won't benefit MANY WAYS from deep substrate. They benefit from it at EVERY age as long as it's the right mixture.

You can throw that half log into a baby snake enclosure; useless for a monitor. You can add actual logs/cork in there, just bury them a bit. Take the plywood ramp and use it as a bicycle ramp. You can use a flat rock or something with some actual terrain on it for that purpose. An actual flat rock is going to be better on the monitor nails and overall natural look of the enclosure than that ply ramp.

Lower your basking lights closer to the surface where you are going to throw out the ply and add a better basking site. If they are lower, you won't be using high wattage lights and it will be heating a very centralized area rather than the entire air of the enclosure at the top. I'll admit Frank hit the nail on the head there.

Good luck

Hello WRC1228,

Really good detailed post. That's the good stuff... The information that benefits the animals that we keep. Best to You- Mike S

Impressive, and all for the humble savannah. That's great to see someone putting effort, money and time into the animal's care at a level that far exceeds the monetary value of the animal itself.

Caleb