Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anybody who has commented on the posts below know FOR SURE, without a SHADOW of a DOUBT, with 100% CERTAINTY, that this is actuallty zonata disease in the FIRST PLACE? A lot of conjecture and jumping the gun, and assuming is what I'm seeing. And I don't mean this is coming from the customer who bought these animals, I mean the others who posted. I've seen zonata disease and it's ravaging effects on a collection years ago, MY collection, (only zonatas themselves were affected), and this disease takes no prisoners. It acts very quickly killing the animals in a relatively short period of time. So, I'm a neutral party just trying to see if this is really what is going on. I'm not questioning anyone's knowledge or husbandry practices, or integrity. Just asking some questions that have not been asked. Does anyone know FOR SURE? Seems we SHOULD before we start labeling something. Are the animals still alive, feeding, thriving? If they are doing all of the previously mentioned, it's very likely this is not zonata disease.( Yes, I KNOW, that's also an assumption on my part). So, off my soap-box for now...

I've tried to say the same thing. There is a definite rush to judgement on that score.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yes I know for certain that Stu's animals have classic zonata disease symptoms. As others have said, the neurological symtoms may not be present, but the skin symptoms are a huge red flag that is a warning of impending doom. The animals will never be the same again.
Juarez Wonders

Also, while ZD will wipe out a collection, it does not always kill them. Animals will feed, even breed still while having the condition.
Jeff

I agree that they have classic symptoms. Ric Blair had animals survive this ordeal, as have others, but they are never the same. Besides, 3100 bucks for snakes that look like that after a week or two? Z disease (which it most likely is) or not, a refund should have been given asap. Period.

Joe

Jeph I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this thing. A local friend of mine ( Dr. Gus) had his collection wiped out in very short order.

I hear its always fatal then I hear that sometimes the animals survive feed and breed. Isn't it entirely possible that there are two conditions people are experiencing that are both being called ZD? That would certainly explain why we can't figure out if its caused by a pathogen or not.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I don't think it's two different things because the ones that survive usually retain lifelong symptoms. Also the number that actually die from the disease may actually be alot smaller than the number that end up getting euthanized.

It is odd that some display neurological symptoms first and some display skin conditions first but I think there have been plenty that eventually display both symptoms. I see nothing unusual about some snakes dying and some snakes surviving from it.

If it is two different things then I think it might be two different strains of the same thing, kinda like there are many species of salmonella. Another possibility is that if this disease is something that many, or most, wild zonata carry then possibly different populations of zonata have differing resistance to the "disease". Or maybe it's a pathogen that can be transmitted through different routes and infect and/or migrate through different parts of the animal. Perhaps if they injest it orally it will infect the skin first and if they breath it in it infects the brain first.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Some good thoughts Aaron. I wish we all knew more. You have to wonder if other species get it and are just not damaged by the virus (if it is one) and then can carry and transmit the virus as well.

Joe

The problem is that zonata disease is not a fully characterized disease so there is no way to definitively diagnose it. Like any new disease, it cannot be tested for until the pathogen is identified or another unique marker has been identified. Until then all you can do is note similarities in symptomology with previous observations.
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Rick Staub

Rick, why has there been no research on this? If you know of a lab or someone that can start the research I will gladly throw some funds their way to help. For now---"Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, probably a duck."

Joe

Probably because there is not much interest (or significance unless you are a z nut) in an obscure disease that only really effects one species that is not a popular pet.
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Rick Staub

Rick, I have two question?

Minus neurologic symptoms would you automatically suspect a dehydrated snake as having ZD? Also, if you would suspect it, would your reaction be different? IE would you quarantine and take a wait and see approach or would you euthanize the subject the same as if it also had neurological symptoms?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, here is a link where I gave my opinion. Two things. First it is only my opinion based purely on anecdotal observations. I am not a pathologist. In the same vein, the neurological symptoms are just another symptom and its importance to ZD is again just an opinion. Not all snakes expressing ZD symptoms get paralysis just like not all snakes with ZD die, though most do when the disease has progressed as far as seen on a couple snakes Stu posted pics of. There are many uncertainties such as is dehydration caused by the erosion of the scales once the disease progresses or does dehydration cause the erosion of the scales which causes greater dehydration. Is the paralysis due to the disease or just a side effect of the severe dehydration.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1965674,1965852

Too many variables to answer your quarantine question directly.
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Rick Staub

Thanks Rick.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Rick, I'm sure it varies but about how long after the dry skin look and rapid repeat shedding appears do people start seeing the nuerological symptoms with ZD.
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Randy Whittington

Just to be clear my question has nothing to do with what brought all this up. I'm just curious.
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Randy Whittington

I never recorded how long it took and it was many years ago so I do not remember. I only ever had ZD in L z agalma. None of the L z zonata I had at the time ever got the disease.
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Rick Staub

Sorry I didn't mean just you but in general from over the years of dealing with them and talking to others involved with the species.
If anyone else has anything to add I would like to hear.
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Randy Whittington

Randy, last year I had a parviruba that presented with the bad skin, dented scales, ect. However, I did not keep him around and take any chances. He was placed into another room for one week and then into the deep freeze. Some call that harsh, I call that safe. I am not taking any chances with my collection and I thought this to be zd by his appearance, although he did not present the nervous symptoms. With some of the things I have read lately, and how the collections were entirely wiped out, I am starting to lean toward a virus of some kind, where I used to think conditions alone caused zd. This parviruba came from a dealer that had zd in his collection at one time and I wonder if the virus had been dormant or just needed certain conditions to take over. This animal was the only zonata in my collection that did not have a humid hide and was sold to me as a female. I had placed him in with a larger male many times for breeding and he was, well lets say the larger male thought he was female too. I would say that caused this animal great stress and could have brought the condition on. I am just stating observations and assumptions though. We need research done.

Joe

Thanks for the info Joe.
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Randy Whittington

No issues. Everything I have heard parrots what has already been said here. Unfortunately nobody has run any controlled experiments and most just freeze off those that show symptoms. Difficult to draw conclusions since conditions are generally unknown.
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Rick Staub