Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am going to breed a red to a black and want to know if anyone have pics of this crossing and what would it be called.
thanks

There isn't really a name. Most people who keep bloods pythons are not too keen on the idea of hybridization of these two species, or subspecies depending on who you talk to.
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Josh Trout

Not a good idea. Once they are crossed, the offspring can be very difficult to distinguish from true brongersmai (red bloods), and once sold, you have lost control of their true genetic identity. In my personal opinion, it's never a good idea to genetically "dilute" pure specimens of any species, especially when the accurate identification of the offspring is so difficult.

Kelly

i realize this, but was wondering if and what they look like. would one enhance the other, as is sometimes the case with ball pythons one can make the other in the offspring really pop.

but then as you say you should only breed curtus to curtus breit to breit ... but what of a normal breit to like a marble? or for that matter should one only breed malaysian brong to malaysian brong only and not sumatran brong to malaysian brong.

where does one draw the line, if no crossings are done then all bloods are not morphs they are pure naturally occuring patterns?

i find this hard to belive that over the last 80 years that not one preson has crossed to produce a morph.

i have dcided to have 3 pair of bloods for breeding 2 blacks/chrome for my curtus line and 2 marbles for my breitenstini line and 1 malaysian red with 1 sumatran red for my brongersmia line

Well people have crossed them. But in my opinion, it's not an improvement. Kelly is right, if you lose track of the offspring it can make things complicated. Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe some of your confusion might be from thinking the locality of the snakes, is indicative of what species or subspecies it might be. Which can be confusing. It is much easier to go with the scientific name in this instance. For example, in your last post you were using the locality and species interchangeably. I think Kelly can shed more light on this than I can. Also Kelly if you wouldn't mind answering a question of mine. Have the three subspecies officially been given full species status? I.e. Python brongersmai, Python curtus, etc. Any light you could shed on this would be most appreciated.
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Josh Trout

you do not lose track, if you breed a p. curtus(black) to a p brongersmai(sumatran) then you have to lable it p. curtus x p. brongersmai. to further identify which species the offspring favors you check for or the lack of subocular scales. so if you breed these two and you get say an even number of offspring with subocular scales than those are p.curtus x p brongersmai where as the ones with out subocular scales are p. brongersmai x p. curtus.

it is not rocket science guys, just simple genetics

N/P
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Josh Trout

Um... N/P?

did i offend you?

Not at all. I'm just trying to figure out why you would want to cross breed.
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Josh Trout

ok. well i have a vpi line red sumatran and acquired a sweet looking chrome and just thought that the two might make a sweet looking baby, but i do not now much about how the pattern morphing works as i am into balls and just got into bloods, saw a kid post on youtube that he had one but did not show it fully exposed and wondered what it looks like

The problem is that once you sell a hybrid, you no longer have any control over what happens to it or if the true identity of that animal is ever passed on to other owners after subsequent sales to additional individuals. Also, P. brongersmai from Malaysia and Sumatra are physically identical as far as scalation and only have extremely minor pattern differences. Additionally, true Malaysian brongersmai are extremely rare and I don’t believe any have been brought into the U.S. in over 20 years.

I believe you are extremely over-simplifying the phenotype outcome of this cross. The five main scalation features used for identification of brongersmai, curtus, and breitensteini are:
1. Presence or absence subocular scales
2. Do the supralabials directly contact the orbit of the eye.
3. Size and length of contact between the anterior pair of parietal scales.
4. Are there one or two supraocular scales above the orbit.
5. Number of ventral scales.

When hybridizing different species within this group, you can get different mixes of these five characteristics even in the same clutch that makes identification extremely difficult. For example some individuals from the same litter of hybrids may have subocular scales and some of the litter mates may not, but they are all true hybrids. When you get different sets of these five characteristics in the same hybrid litter, it gets more difficult than rocket science. Add to this the blurring of the distinguishing coloration and pattern markings of each species and you have a definite genetic identification mess.

Kelly

Beside the fact you just repeated what I said, and because I didn't want to drag it out to the five identifiers. It is still as simple as examination of the offspring. I belive you are over complicating it. But I do agree that if you breed suboc to non suboc it will complicate further generations when trying to breed like identifiers and then getting offspring with completly different identifiers

I believe I can clarify my point further. How would you identify a hatchling from a hybrid clutch that had subocular scales on one side of the head with no supralabial contacting the orbit, but on the other side of the head was showing broad orbit contact with a supralabial. In addition, it was showing one supraocular on one side and two on the other side along with an intermediate ventral count. While that is not common, it can and does happen. Not all hybrids will show definitive traits indicating what type of hybrid it is.

Another more common example would be a hatchling that keyed out as a breitensteini on four of the scalation characteristics but had suboculars on one side of the head, but had supralabial to orbital contact on the other side. Would you think this was a pure breitensteini with a mutation, or was hybridization with brongersmai involved? It could be either one and it would be nice to be able to eliminate hybridization.

Kelly

That is like saying that a bumblebee, spider x pastel should only come out half spider half pastel, or a human half black and half white literally. Genetics doesn't allow for this, it is the mixing of the two said speices, so you will have or not have subocular scales, further if you breed p.curtus to p.breitinstini you do need to further you identifiers to see of which parent it favors. Now if you have video or a link to video not pics to did prove what I have been saying, than post it other wise stop trying to refute it. And if there is one out there like you discribed than it would be worth a thousand times if not more.

If you are so knowledgeable about genetics and what will happen if you breed brongersmai and a breit together, why did you ask your first question? You seem to know it all.
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Josh Trout

One, I wanted to know how they will look and two knowing how genetics works will not show that it will only help me identify the favored parent.

Please stick with the balls and leave the shorties alone there has been enough mutts made already..And NO black and red won't make purple snakes..
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www.serpentim.com

One I will do whatever I please, two don't be an ass.

PLEASE, is the key word..
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www.serpentim.com

Your right dumbass because red and blue make purple snakes

Josh,
All were given individual species status around 2001 if I remember correctly. Thanks,

Kelly

Thank you much.
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Josh Trout

Josh, The 2001 paper is not too hard to find and is somewhat of a bible to us keepers..My way of thinking is that any breit lacking the granular preocs is null and void and theres quite a few out there..Buyer beware..
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www.serpentim.com

Right. I've read the paper. I was under the impression it was just a proposal to give them each full species status. As I was not aware if it was granted or not. But you are saying that it has been granted?
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Josh Trout

Josh, Not aware of the procedure to grant or not too,(peer reveiwed) but it was written in 2001 and has been flying since..I'd have to ASSUME that it is in place and accepted..When BC longicauda was described it was done in a Japenese publication and there was some animosity but yet it flys today ??
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www.serpentim.com