Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First let me say that I am not an expert on tortoises or their nutrition. Im just a guy who would REALLY like to see an end to pyramiding and a beginning to healthy tortoises in captivity. Please read this at your discretion.

It is my honest opinion that pyramiding is the result of one or more factors ultimately leading to kidney damage.

Tortoises have weak kidneys. This, we know.

Any excess toxins can cause kidney damage and reduced metabolic processes. Anything from toxic plants to dehydration could cause this and lead to rapid or increased cell death and resulting in an excess of keratin growth. We see this type of keratin growth in humans with anorexia. The hair falls out of their head but grows rapidly on the body. Nail growth increases as well. Due, again, to rapid cell death from a lack of nutrients. Damaged kidneys reduce an animals metabolic ability and cause nutritional deficiencies. It is widely accepted that pyramiding is caused by, none other than, nutritional deficiency, but still we see it in animals that are well fed. Clearly, it must be internal. I do not believe that ambient humidity has ANYTHING to do with it. One of the defining characteristics of a reptile is waterproof skin.

Here is a list of potential dangers to tortoise kidneys:

- Dehydration. They need to drink almost every day. Dehydration equals kidney damage. Even in humans. This is the most important factor. Many tortoise owners do not even offer water on a regular basis and wonder why their animal is deformed or unhealthy.

- Proteins. Excess proteins flood the system and act like toxins. Many native plant species have high protein. I believe that protein is the LEAST contributing factor to pyramiding but can be exasperated by dehydration.

- Toxins. Its thought that some specific plants can be toxic to tortoises, such as spinach, cabbage, rhubarb and beets. These plants contain toxins called Oxalate and Thiocyanates which could potentially damage kidneys.

- Sugars. Too much sugar can act like a toxin and overwhelm the kidneys causing damage. Sweet fruits should be highly limited. Especially in young animals.

So.. Make fresh drinking water available at ALL times. Avoid feeding excess proteins, toxic plants, and only give fruits once in a while as a treat and in small quantities.

The answer: Water. And grass. Period.

At the moment I have two neonate sulcatas on this diet. I am feeding zoomed grassland 5 days a week and allowing some dandelions, escarole, and clover.. but only on the weekends we will see how they turn out as time goes on. Although, I am guardedly optimistic. Fell free to send me a post message if you would like to discuss the topic further.

Good luck to everyone and god bless,
Jason

Jason,Your honesty in the first sentence is well apprisheated. There are many papers from high ranking Scientest in resent years that are frodulent at best. Rodda & Reed USGS. of resent reporting on Pythons is the most glareing curent paper that actually inacted a new law of the Federal Lasey Act.And recieved an award from the current Dept.of Int. Others are just Lazy work by high degreed people producing high school quallity D- acheavment.Your statements here though well intended and not aginda driven like the above menchened lack Comparative analysis and empirical evidence on every example.(examp.We know all Tortoises have week Kidneys) Also your talking about all tortoises as if they all have the same needs. You conclude that it is all boiled down to drinking water and grass. An example of tortoises who have little to no grass are from the dark rainforest of Asia. Many are grassland hindgut furmenters and Rumnents, while others carrion. Again compairing Humans to animals,sone of these tortoise like Manouria have been documented in Nature eating Alacasia and Calacasia ssp? like our NA Toro or Elephant Ears as part of their diet* (Sanford in press per.com) and others.I have seen Manouria eat Fungi and Mushroons and Fyladendrons. Russiana Egyptions and others do not drink much water. I do agree that higher than normal protein (in nature)can cause Kidney failure. In Manouria it will turn it into fat and the animal will die from to much fat in the liver. I do share your feeling that humidity has nothing to do with it ,BUT it would be hard to un-prove the exstensive work on this by Richard Fife. Vic Morgan ...(yes I'm a bad speller) Defying Destiny Manouria Reserve. 24th yr 1st. 2nd gen CB M.e.phayrei offspring and other published work.

I think it has to do with nutrition. Captive diet is lacking in some way. It's hard to replicate their wild diet for herbivores. Omnivorous animals are easier to do in captivity in my experience. THis is why bearded dragons are prolific in captivity. Good nutrition along with proper husbandry is sure key to your pets' longevity.

Omnivorous animals are easier to raise in captivity. Look at us! WE eat crap all the time and some people live into their 90'S as long as they don't smoke and drink.

Omnivores are more generalized when it comes to eating which allows them to thrive in captivity, like the bearded dragons, for example. And I think I've read somewhere that some species of herbivorous tortoises are so well adapted to eating plant life in their surrounding that they do not do well base on what is available in captivity. I think that's where these commercial food, like Mazuri tortoise chow, comes in handy. They seem to perk up after eating Mazuri chow.

I think this is why you don't do wild animals justice by keeping them in captivity. Not only the diet affects them but how they are also kept.

Tell that to my second generation Mt.Tortoises! Or the servivers of a 4.5 ton confascated shipment of turtles/tortoises that are now "DEFYING DESTINY" and reproducing in captivity sence 2001. Or tell that to the ones burned up in fires. Or Natures cruel and inefficient plan for servival with nest predation and males that fight to the death. GOOD NIGHT EVERYONE its just not fun here anymore. Vic Morgan pic This one was in the 4.5 ton shipment, reproducing and loving life in captivity.

what do you feed yours?

I believe they Agrob in Europe.

I'm afraid your in the wrong part of the world when it comes to this Tortoise eating Grubs in Europe.

Your HOMEWORK this evening is to figure out where this primitive Manouria emys phayrei tortoise comes from. Happy Googleing!--Richard
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Indian star tortoises have been known to die from bladder stones, not grow well on captive diet and they quickly died... AGAIN, they perk up after eating Mazuri and Agrob. That's just been my experienced talking to different people who own more of these sensitive species.

You should read this this post in the link. I've disagree with this guy before due to my inexperience and I think I was suffering from bipolar, but I do agree with him now. His experience makes sense.
http://www.turtletimes.com/forums/topic/57273-manufactured-diets/

I dont think Ive ever seen an asian mountain tortoise with pyramiding there bud.. maybe they are immune?

I have two red foots , they love cat and dog food . I have been giving them the cat and dog food once a week . They eat very little of anything else the rest of the week . They eat very little romaine , banana ; won't eat apples , oranges , pears , cantilop . They wait for the cat food ; they almost run to get it . I've only had them since Feb. 2012. 39% protein , too much !! I put them in water every day , they drink a lot.

Do you keep your redfoots outdoors? If not when weather is 55 or higher I wouold suggest you do. You might consider giving them collard greens, turnip greens, sweet potatoes cantelope in addition to that cat food.

Personally I use the Mazuri like you do the catfood. I have known redfoot breeders that swear by the catfood but for me I'll opt to use the lower protein amt's that mazuri feed provides. You say you have been keeping yours since Feb, 2012 so you can't really have a good handle on what yesrs of feeding them your way will do. Based on the diet you said you were giving them they will have health problems. I have a large collection and been feeding my oldest pair for over 15 years. Before Mazuri was available I included X-breeder mice in their diet. I think if I were you I would definately consider a more well deversified diet for your redfoots. You will in the end have much healthier redfoots.

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

TKS., I'll have to change their diet. I live in the Toronto , Ontario , Canada area , I don't put them outside unless it's 75.
I thought they can't digest food under 70 ?? I've had them outside four days already.

I live in Jacksonville, Fl. I only shut them up in their heated (thermostatically controlled Infrared bulb with aux. ceramic heater bulb) hut if it falls below 55-60 here. When cold fronts are predicted your absolutely correct you would not want to Gut Load them UNLESS you had plans to lock them up in an outddor enclosure hut like the one in the picture. Of course if you fed them and it was 60 degrees outside and predicted to go lower you would no doubt make plans to contain them indoors or in the heated hut anyway. Good luck and let us know if they start chowing down on the Turnip and collard greens. By the way the Romaine I rarely use just not as good calcium and Phosphorous ratio and definately not a good solid tissue building choice as the other two greens.....

PS: To help convert them over from just eating and wanting the catfood. Soak some catfood for a day or so in water and dip the collard greens in the catfood laced fluid. They will get the scent and gobble the greens down I bet---worth a try! later Richard

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Great pic......TKS., I'll try your advice.

I was feeding them senior cat foot and some puppy chow I had. I have them in 3" of water when I prepare it. They know and are in a hurry to get at it. Yesterday and today I soaked mixed greens in the dog chow . They came over and were looking all over for the kibble ; finally ate a small amount of the greens. It's a contrary world , what we like is usually not healthy.

Again.. the point of this post was to discuss pyramiding and the tortoise species that are prone to it, such as sulcatas, red foots, and leopard tortoises. This information, I feel, does not apply to asian mountain tortoises, box turtles, yellow foots, or other known omnivore species with little to no reports of pyramiding.

Note this is just a post. I have no intention of substantiating the information or publishing it. Thats for the vets and zoologists and such..

Please, I ask everyone, just put a water bowl with fresh water in your tortoises enclosure and if you have one of the three known pyramiding prone species (sulcatas, red foots, leopards) you should avoid excessive proteins (especially cat food!) and sugars.

sorry if I ruined the "fun"

I don't think your post ruined any fun. The individual who suggested we are not capable of providing for our tortoises nutritional & other needs claiming they would be better off in the wild showed a lack of understanding. His comments not relative to the pyramid issue kinda ruined the fun in my opinion.....

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

I think the original poster was correct with hydration being key to preventing pyramiding however I personaly do not believe diet has anything to do with it other than a tort receiving water through it.(soaked mazuri) Also I am not buying the fact that torts have waterproof skin, in years to come I think it will come to lite that they absorb moisture from the substrate and condensation on their shell.(babies)

Mike adequate hydration is a given, it must be provided. Here is an example,a real life one that sheds some doubt on your statement that diet other then providing hydration has nothing to do with it. Four years ago I gave a secretary at work a baby redfoot I produced. I provided her a comprehensive caresheet with a deverse diet. She opted for convenience to feed it nothing but mazuri soaked 3 X a week. I got the tortoise back when it was three years old and it had a good bit of squarred off excessive pyramidding. She said the novelty of taking care of the tortoise was over and it was more of a chore for her. By the way the tortoise was kept inddoors and she said it had an ultraviolet flourescent on 12 hours a day. Since getting the tortoise back it has been set up with my other outdoor tortoises and fed a dverse diet of approx. 80% greens 15% fruits and soaked mazuri a couple of times a week. The squarred off appearing pyramidding has slowly been correcting itself over the last 12 months. Now it has a more rounded appearance. My personal feeling is a combination of factors keep our captive tortoise's healthy with carapace health improving along with the tortoises overall vigor and health. I'm suggesting that the outdoor environment is just as important as any other factor. I think it only through years of looking at individual tortoises and how their kept that we as hobbyiest and breeders can make good choices in our husbandry techniques.....I encourange more discussions on everyone's observations on this issue....Richard

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Hello, good point, the only problem with it I have is we still dont know if that tort was properly hydrated. The tort could be dehydrating daily in an indoor very dry enviroment, or under a very hot basking lite or not active enough to seek out hydration due to a poor enviroment. There are way too many variables that could lead to a poor enviroment leading to lethargy that leads to dehydration that could lead to pyramiding. Only a guess but I like where this is going. Mike

Diet has everything to do with it because we are talking about a "shell growth problum" Most of the tortoises that have this shell pyeramiding like Leopords and Sulcata come from ares that dont offer much water for long periods of time. Some living inactive and not eating or drinking for 4-6 months or longer at a time. No vote here to on waterproof skin. It has been known for decades tortoises absorb water from the anel vent (skin).Richard Fife has done a compairative analysis study of this subject and published it. Even though I dont see how the humidity factor has a connection I believe it due to his dilagent study. Empirical evidence and compairative analysis is real proof. I have phyical evidence in a case with two Black Mt.Tortoises siblings. I raised one and someone else raised another 18 years later it get a sibling back from the same clutch and mine (looks like a wild phayrei) is perfect and the other has a very notable different shapped shell. Diet and environment. Vic M

Hey Vic, I would be interested in reading that study. Know how or where I can find it along with any other interesting stuff like it? Thanks

Mike, I was hoping Fife would chime in but you can Google him. His work is well known and long term. He is no BS'er so I hope you get in touch. Your questions are good and you deserve a good answer. Vic

There is no evidence to support the claim of cloacal drinking in tortoises. There is no evidence that tortoises absorbe moisture through the skin.

Richard Fifes study was concerned with environmental conditions which most likely comes down to the simple fact of the growth margins where the scutes meet.

I think diet has little to do with the shape of the tortoise. I've got tortoises raised on the very same diet. Some are pyramided some are not. The only variance is the environmental conditions.

In Richards case... I believe the only thing he changed was the environment. He's been feeding the same diet for as long as I can remember.

>>Diet has everything to do with it because we are talking about a "shell growth problum" Most of the tortoises that have this shell pyeramiding like Leopords and Sulcata come from ares that dont offer much water for long periods of time. Some living inactive and not eating or drinking for 4-6 months or longer at a time. No vote here to on waterproof skin. It has been known for decades tortoises absorb water from the anel vent (skin).Richard Fife has done a compairative analysis study of this subject and published it. Even though I dont see how the humidity factor has a connection I believe it due to his dilagent study. Empirical evidence and compairative analysis is real proof. I have phyical evidence in a case with two Black Mt.Tortoises siblings. I raised one and someone else raised another 18 years later it get a sibling back from the same clutch and mine (looks like a wild phayrei) is perfect and the other has a very notable different shapped shell. Diet and environment. Vic M
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hey Ed, I'm looking for some new reading material, doesnt have to be pyramiding related(prefer not). know of where to find some? thanks

http://www.amazon.com/Tortoises-Complete-Herp-Care-Pirog/dp/0793828635

>>Hey Ed, I'm looking for some new reading material, doesnt have to be pyramiding related(prefer not). know of where to find some? thanks
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hay Mr.Ed. Dont leave us hanging! What were the two environments. Try reading the entire post next time down to the last two words! You ever seen a tortoises dryed up dehydrated eyes "plump up" when you soak or spray water on them.( same at other end) What do you think is happenning there, if not absorbing water?! VM

Never have seen a tortoise plump up is moved to a humid environment or sprayed. The only time I notice a tortoise rehydrated is through drinking.

I've dealt with hundreds of dehydrated tortoises.

This topic has been hashed and rehashed to the point there is no need to read every word once I get the gist of a persons opinion.

I throw this out time and again... show me some evidence that there is cloacal drinking in tortoises. It doesn't even have to be scientific evidence... any evidence will do.

As I mentioned... a moist environment does seem to benefit shell development but it has nothing with absorbing moisture. It has to do with preventing or reducing the loss of moisture.

>>Hay Mr.Ed. Dont leave us hanging! What were the two environments. Try reading the entire post next time down to the last two words! You ever seen a tortoises dryed up dehydrated eyes "plump up" when you soak or spray water on them.( same at other end) What do you think is happenning there, if not absorbing water?! VM
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I thank you both for the reading info. Ordered yours today Ed and will researh Mr. Fifes asap. Thank you both. Maybe we can start a post on good reading material for torts whether it being published or not. I will go through my favorites tonite and get it started when get chance.

I believe Richard gave that presentation in Viena but it didbn't make the proceedings.

The first time I talked to Richard about the topic was at a meeting of the Northern California Herp Society where he was hawking these beautifully shaped white leopards. We came to the same conclusion from different directions as I'm sure other keepers did.

This is Richards site... http://ivorytortoise.com/

>>I thank you both for the reading info. Ordered yours today Ed and will researh Mr. Fifes asap. Thank you both. Maybe we can start a post on good reading material for torts whether it being published or not. I will go through my favorites tonite and get it started when get chance.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Email me directly for copies of the two papers directly related to this discussion.

epirog@comcast.net

>>I thank you both for the reading info. Ordered yours today Ed and will researh Mr. Fifes asap. Thank you both. Maybe we can start a post on good reading material for torts whether it being published or not. I will go through my favorites tonite and get it started when get chance.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

HUNDREDS! Rescues? Confascated illegal shippments? Just over the long run back when all we had were imports? You ever use Lactated Ringer's or the old Arthur Jones Gator Aid 50-50 H2O. You can bring them back from death's door with this stuff. Dead tortoise walk'in! Tell the folks about it man, thats a lot of torts.how'ed you do it. VM. pic 2001 TSA 4.5 ton confascation serviver. Dead tortoise walk'in and reproducing, Defying Destiny

...and you know the fluid was taken in via the skin or cloaca... I don't think so. To bad there doesn't seem to be any documented evidence either scientific or anecdotal to support this claim. There is documented evidence to dispute it... one of which... ironically... you cited as evidence against the myth of cloacal drinking in this same discussion years ago.

As far as the number of tortoises I've encountered... Working in a reptile specialty shop then reptile wholesaler from 78 to 81 then maintaining large collections from 81 to present... in the process working with occasional importing, rehoming and confescations.

I have use ringers solution(injected) and gator aid(soaked in or tubed when they didn't drink on their own) or all reptiles when needed.

It's kinda easy to maintain Asian tortoises in a climate similar to where they originated.

>>HUNDREDS! Rescues? Confascated illegal shippments? Just over the long run back when all we had were imports? You ever use Lactated Ringer's or the old Arthur Jones Gator Aid 50-50 H2O. You can bring them back from death's door with this stuff. Dead tortoise walk'in! Tell the folks about it man, thats a lot of torts.how'ed you do it. VM. pic 2001 TSA 4.5 ton confascation serviver. Dead tortoise walk'in and reproducing, Defying Destiny
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hay I'm over it! I didnt believe it for years but many Vets and other keepers think there is some good it. But I'm over it! Let it go, you the man. I got it made in the shade,it so easy here anyone could do it. Lets see I can count the people that breed them here in Fl. for 20+ years in a row on...ah...one finger. I'm just lucky OF COURSE,but OF COURSE your the famous Mr.ED. Vic Morgan from easy street USA. Good night everyone! you

Maybe nobody wants to breed them.

I'm glad you realize your good fortune... Not many are that humble.

I also appreciate you know your place in the pecking order among the experienced tortoise keepers.

>>Hay I'm over it! I didnt believe it for years but many Vets and other keepers think there is some good it. But I'm over it! Let it go, you the man. I got it made in the shade,it so easy here anyone could do it. Lets see I can count the people that breed them here in Fl. for 20 years in a row on...ah...one finger. I'm just lucky OF COURSE,but OF COURSE your the famous Mr.ED. Vic Morgan from easy street USA. Good night everyone! you
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care