Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Don't expect your "Designer Blue, Red, Albino and whatever the next flavor of the day is", to have a normal life expectancy in captivity.

Interesting? Are there morphed cyclura or is this in the wrong section?

We like green ones too. I would just like to hear some more more information, I know they are obviously inbred but lots of lizards are.KB

I've read that they were inbreeding the angel fish so much that a lot of them developed defected gills and quickly die. Even fish suffer from too much inbreeding.

lol, your post reads like a threat.
I know its not, elaborate please, most in captivity dont have a normal life span regardless of color.

jf

Now I won't have to dump mine off in the Everglades to get rid of it when I get sick of it! Or at the local rescue or zoo for that matter! LOL

I hate when people throw something like that out and don't explain themselves. Who is this person?

I can say they have no sense of humor. See my post below.

Tom Greb

And I got an offlist message from someone regarding this thread saying I'm uptight. What the heck was up with that? I'm not sure what the heck I said that makes me sound uptight. All I did was ask who the person was who posted the original message. Sheesh.

once again. The following is a mail I recieved from this person and my response. Hope I didn't offend anyone else. I was just making light of the economics of the green iguana and the introduction of non-native species causing havoc on the everglades. I did not take aim at the post as this person very well could be correct. I wish he would maybe introduce himself on the forum so maybe we may learn who this expert might be. I deleted e-mail addresses as I do not think it is my place to post the other persons address.

Tom Greb

Hi to whomever you may be. My name is Tom Greb and I am not comparing resumes I was just making light of the typical pet owner that buys these things on a whim and want rid of them because they do not think or do not care what size these things can attain and there very specific needs. Also making light of the trouble with the introduced species in the everglades. You need to lighten up a little. You may be correct on the so called designer igs as I keep no Iguana iguana.

I Know Manny and have had conversations with him he is a great guy and very knowledgeable. He also has a sense of humor. Are you not of the USA because your English is very poor. You may want to try to explain your statements a little better because as one other user pointed out you seem to be very argumentative in your post. Maybe it is just you do not understand the English language very well.

Thank you for your message . I did not mean to offend you I was just making light of the economics of the green iguana. I usually do not answer e-mails that are not signed by the person that sent them but since you seem to think you are some sort of expert I thought I would. I will repost this on the forum also as to explain my comments.

Thank you for your time sir/miss/mrs, dr.????

Tom Greb

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 6:52 PM
To:
Subject: Whew! That\\\'s good to know........

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This message was sent through the Contact Form at our Forums. This person will not know your email address until you reply to them.
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This is why I do not understand why Manny Hernandez wastes his vast knowledge and time on this forum as I. You need to reread that post so that you can comprehend what I was trying to say. And quit being so immature. I bet your resume can't compete with mine. Bye the way, how old are you anyway?

This message was sent to you by the user: lujuana from Kingsnake.com - Herpforum at http://forums.kingsnake.com Submitted from ip: 68.26.190.187

I don't fully understand the original question posted by Steve(lujuana)but if people start getting rid of their albino, blue, red iguanas etc. I'll be right there to catch them. lol
Since my name was thrown out there:
Steve, I'm sure Tom wasn't trying to be disrespectful. Tom is a great, knowledgeable guy full of jokes.
Tom, meet Steve, who is a longtime friend of mine and has kept Ctenosaura for a long time.
It’s hard to read tone in email and posts and thank God we have some help these days like (LOL, LMAO, ROFLMAO, etc.) We are on this forum because we love iguanas. Let’s please get along and call it a truce if one needs to be called so we can talk lizards in a happy place.)

Manny

seems like things are working out. been talking a bit with Steve and it was as you say a sort of misunderstanding. I really did not mean any malice toward Steve or his post, as far as I know he could be 100% correct. Hope all is well with you.

Tom

Well I'm laughing all the way to the bank with Green Iguana morphs...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
239-645-9661
tomcrutchfield1@aol.com
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
Why do you believe a color morph will not lead a "normal" life? Do you have a personal dislike of morphs?
By the way the reds are a naturally occurring geographic color variety not a morph.
Rob

BTW it cracks me up when someone has to tout there resume online to people they don't know.

It's my understanding that the albinos and blues are naturally occurring as well -- we just don't see them in the wild because they get eaten quickly as babies since they can't camouflage. That's why we won't see a snow in the wild -- the iggies that would throw a snow never grow up to mate. Isn't that correct?

Yes blues and albinos do occur naturally but the reds are not genetic morphs they are local specific color variety's. If you breed a genetic blue or an albino to a normal you get normal hets for the color. If you breed a red or other local color variety it just washes out the red. There is alot of color variation in iguana iguana throughout the range, some are green some are almost black some are almost yellow even green with bright orange faces. most reptiles with large ranges have alot of color variability.
just look at bearded dragons or rosy boas but theses are not genetic color morphs.
Rob

If the idea is that inbreeding is the problem I don't really see that as a likely problem unless the original morph had a major genetic problem. If the original animal was a male it could be bred to 10 different females a year for several years just to get enough to start a commercial operation and that would have a lot of genetic diversity.
I don't really believe that at least iguanids suffer from inbreeding like other animals do. Most cyclura and island living ctenosaura and iguanas were started with very few founding animals (as little as 1 gravid female)and after hundreds and thousands of years inbreeding they doing fine and evolving into new species, sub species, or color varieties depending on how long they have been isolated.
This is really a very long conversation in person but this is a basic summery.
Rob

It's weird that a lot of reptiles breeders seem to prefer inbreeding to get the colors and shape of the animals. It's an irony that people who breed tarantulas for a living seem to be against inbreeding their tarantulas. [shrug]

Interestingly, in the wild, tarantulas have a certain protection against inbreeding. The males of a particular clutch mature and disperse at least a year before their sisters have matured enough to mate.

I'm not saying I wouldn't buy the animals from breeders, I would buy purebred dog. I love Rottweilers.

Since I'm the ONLY one here who would actually know this info you're DEAD WRONG....Morphs are EXACTLY THE SAME AS NORMALS IN ALL ASPECTS...This is the 6th year of the project..You simply don't know and are giving your opinion but it's not based on experience or knowledge...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
239-645-9661
tomcrutchfield1@aol.com
www.tomcrutchfield.com

How long is the average lifespan of these guys?

I agree with Tom, there should be no difference in the longevity of a morphed iguana, especially in captivity unless a trait has been passed that critically flaws the survival of the animal. In opposition to the original post, a morphed iguana may even be genetically stronger than a regular animal since in theory, the animal could have enhanced genetic structure that may be missing in its common form. As far as inbreeding is concerned, animals especially reptiles, specifically iguanas, inbreed naturally in the wild. You can see it on the island of Puerto Rico with the Cuban iguanas, in small colonies of feral common and ctenosaura iguanas throughout including Florida. You don’t see those populations contracting. The reason for lack of “morphed” iguanas in the wild is not due to longevity as a direct cause, it is because of indirect circumstances such as loss of eye sight in some albino iguanas, White, yellow, Blue are colors you can’t hide in the wild and may actually attract predation, etc.. With all this said, yes you will eventually run into problems when inbreeding and that is when you will need to introduce new blood to get rid of the unwanted traits while maintain or acquiring desired traits.

I don't expect them to have a normal life expectancy....I expect them to live longer in captivity!

They get a lot bigger in the wild, though. Why is that?

where is the fact that they get larger in the wild?

On www.anapsid.org In the wild a lot of them can reach up to 7 feet in length. In captivity they only max out at 6...

Maybe they exercise more in the wild.

I have never seen or heard of one that reach 7 foot in captivity... Have you? They max out at 6 foot in captivity at most.

This is because of sub-species, genetics, or geographical location. Back in the 80s I caught a 7 foot 2" male green iguana with about what could have been 6" missing from the end of the tail. There were other iguanas on that canal bank there were larger. I also worked for a reptile importer; Pet Farm where we received a shipment of 7 foot common iguanas from Nicaragua. In another particular location, I remember setting my eyes on an adult male "Blue" green iguana that had to be close to 6 ft in length. Most if not all of these iguanas were Iguana, iguana, rhinolopha from Honduras and Nicaragua which grow bigger than the ones being imported today from Peru and Columbia. We had not experienced a deep freeze winter for over 20 years prior to the one that wiped all those animals out. We still have some of the remnant rinolopha iguanas here but some of the original bloodlines have been diluted due to cross breeding of newly introduced iguanas form other locations. I still come across 6-1/2 ft iguanas here in Florida from time to time. I have never caught or seen another one as massive as the 7'-2" I caught in the 80s and this may be because of the cold snaps that have been happening every 10 to 15 years that kills off most of the older populace and does not allow them to grow to their maximum capacity.

I highly recommend the book "Iguanas for Dummies", though. It has a lot of scientific facts. Stephen L. Barten, DVM, noted reptile veterinarian, also recommend this book. I love reading it at night!

Ty, it is a WELL KNOWN fact that captives always exceed average sizes and some get larger than wild ones just like Cyclura, Crocs, Pythons, Rattlesnakes, Cobras, etc...ALL herps get larger & faster....
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Tom Crutchfield
239-645-9661
tomcrutchfield1@aol.com
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Actually, while morphs are born in the wild, I don't think they grow up at all in the wild because they can't camouflage themselves and are quickly eaten.

If you mean regular green iguanas, why do you think they get bigger in the wild? I haven't seen that to be the case with any well cared for green

And, yes...I mean regular green iguanas.

Then why do you think they get bigger in the wild? I haven't had that be the case with any properly cared for iguana in captivity. I think that often people offer poor husbandry and try to keep the animals in too small of an environment and get tired of preparing a proper iguana salad everyday. But every iguana that I know of who has been kept in a proper environment, with proper UV and a good diet has grown as large, if not larger, than any wild iguana.

This is according to Melissa Kaplan and I believe her. She's really smart and a very good writer and have worked with many wild animals in the past. I don't think anyone knows for sure why. Maybe they get more exercise in the wild. Or it could just be that some animals don't do well in captivity no matter what.

Iguanas for Dummies written by Melissa Kaplan is, in my opinion, one of the best publications written on the captive care of green iguanas. However, to say that wild green iguanas gets "a lot" larger than captive raised one based on her statement (without any science behind that statement) is presumptuous and false in my opinion. In my personal experience, with proper care, I believe that most captive raised iguanas (on average) grows faster and larger than ones found in the wild. I wonder how many 7 foot iguanas are out there in the wild.

I don't know but that's what she said...that they grow larger in the wild. but have you ever seen and heard of a 7 foot lizard in captivity?

I mean even with proper care have you ever heard of one reaching 7 foot in captivity.

That's why I add alfalfa to the salad...and feed them other nutritious veggies like parsnips, green beans and winter squash.

My Mayan would have been well over six feet if he hadn't lost a foot of tail as a baby. Also, I almost adopted a male about a year ago who was over six feet and had also had a tail injury.

I would say the biggest reason we don't usually see iggies that long in captivity is that so many lose a good bit of their tails when they are young and these never grow back completely.

This is why all lizard stats should be on SVL and with total length a secondary notation.

That makes sense...

I agree with you completely. We should be talking about SVLs and weight, not overall length.

I think the problem is that proper iguana care in captivity has only been until very recent. Yes the diet has been for a while, yet proper UV lighting has not been around all to long considering. One thing for sure though, wild greens develop much taller spikes than any captive animal. Even large adult's that are captured end up with spikes that lay over. Regardless of how hard we try, being in the wild is the best care and typically produces the most stunning animals.

I think you're right. i think some animals just do better in the wild...unless you have facilities like the zoos do. I don't think any cage is ever big enough in captivity.

Bubba and Tom are probably the most correct on this thread.
First off few if any green igs ever get 7 feet. 6 feet is a monster.
Some locals may have a little longer tails so bubba is correct we should only use SVL.
In captivity there are only 10s of thousands and most not in ideal environments and most don't live full lives. in the wild there are 10s of millions and there are more opportunities to live full lives.
Some of the biggest Igs I have ever seen come from Puerto Rico Tom use to get in 6 footers back in the day. I think they get so big because of several factors, they are not native and have few predictors so many live long lives and they are also from many different populations so they may have hybrid vigor.
Another reason many igs might not get as big in the long run is because in the wild a large iguana would eat several lbs of leaves, flowers, fruits and what ever else they come across with lots of roughage all day every day and get a huge amount of vitamins and nutrition. Most people would not feed there iguanas that much food and have to clean the cage so we feed smaller amounts of higher calorie food and less often.
I think the idea that iguanas get bigger in the wild is a matter of perception there are 500 6 foot iguanas in captivity and few people see them and there are 500,000 6 foot iguanas in the wild and those are the ones people see on golf coarses and other gardens and resorts where people have added to there food choices.
Rob

How are these things compared to Cyclura? Cyclura tends to get bigger in captivity, don't they? Could it be because they eat a little of animal protein so are easier to feed in captivity? I notice that omnivores like the bearded dragons tends to be prolific in captivity. I think they are more generalized when it comes to eating what is available which makes them more adaptable lizards? [shrug]

Ty you are 100% correct....
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Tom Crutchfield
239-645-9661
tomcrutchfield1@aol.com
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't think that iguanas get "bigger" in the wild as opposed to captivity. But there is some truth to this comment/ question and it has to do with many things such as: Iguanas can eat all day in the wild, food diversity and nutrient quality, are exposed to high constant UVB, genetics(yes there are different subspecies of green iguanas although some may not be classified), in captivity; inadequate husbandry, and lack of all of the above mentioned.

Ty you are so correct and like me you'll do well....

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Tom Crutchfield
239-645-9661
tomcrutchfield1@aol.com
www.tomcrutchfield.com

In the 90's I raised a pair of albino Iguanas and one is still alive TODAY...I have 9 year old albino's now....The average life span of Green Iguanas in captivity is 10-12 years...Usually their kidneys die because captive ones dehydrate easily unless you really know what you're doing...HOW MANY MORPHS HAVE YOU KEPT & FOR HOW LONG...I'm wondering how you know this...Could you explain it to me how you became an expert yet a lizardless one...HAHAHAHA...My original hets are producing still at 16 years old...I think you're upset because you don't have any..I can sell you some if you need it...More are hatching today!!!!!LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
239-645-9661
tomcrutchfield1@aol.com
www.tomcrutchfield.com

OK...so just because you think she is really smart...and I believe you...are you going to follow her blindly and take whatever she writes and say as fact? Instead of asking me if I have seen 7 foot iguana in captivity (I have not), you should be asking her if she has any facts to back up her assertion. As far as I know, Tom has the most experience with morph iguanas (more than anyone combined...probably) but I would not follow everything he tells me without thinking about it....and he wouldn't want me to as he already have enough "fans." I rather my TRUE friends tell me the truth, even if they disagree....that is a true friend...not just telling me what I want to hear. We learn by reading and talking to people, but the real learning comes from experience and typically from mistakes as well. From my experience with keeping and breeding reptiles, I am going to say that, with proper care, they do better in captivity rather than in the wild. OK...I understand the part about they get more room in the wild but how much room do they really need???? In captivity, we take away many negative things that they encounter in the wild, such as predator (and stress from them), certain disease (I don't think they get vet care in the wild), seasonal food shortages, incremental weather...etc.

Morph iguanas will NEVER be wild animals as they will most likely never survive in the wild. Morph iguanas, such as albino iguanas, are truly "created" as pet...just like dogs and cats we keep as pets. Those people who think they are better than us because they think these animals are wild and should be kept wild need to get off their high horses and face the reality that we are doing them good by keeping the line alive.

Knowing Melissa Kaplan I dont think she would have just put the facts there without properly verifying it and siting the sources. She's one of those people. I think she use to check for insurance fraud for a living to see if anyone is lying, and keeping and helping animals on side and as a hobby. But I know what you mean about not following people blindly...believe me. That's why I like to knwo about the person's credentials before deciding if they are telling the truth or if they are correct when they write about something. This subjects really baffles me, though. And I know there is a chance she could be wrong by getting it from unreliable sources...but knowing her credentials that helps a bit.

I think enough has been said that people can reach their own conclusions.

I'm not saying that you are lying, but this subject just baffles me. There are lot of conflicting information.