Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Final word on vests -

Jeff:
Hope all is well.

The Texas Parks and Wildlife Code statute is very clear. The requirement is 144 square inches of reflective material on the front and 144 square inches of reflective material on the back. The total front and back would be 288 square inches. Not sure where 144 total or 301 inches is coming from.

Sec. 62.0031. HUNTING FROM PUBLIC ROAD OR RIGHT-OF-WAY PROHIBITED.

(a) Except as provided by Subsections (b) and (c), a person may not hunt a wild animal or bird when the person is on a public road or right-of-way.

(b) This section does not apply to the trapping of a raptor for educational or sporting purposes as provided by Chapter 49.

(c) A person may capture by nonlethal means reptiles and amphibians on the shoulder of a road, as defined by Section 541.302, Transportation Code, or the unpaved area of a public right-of-way if the person:

(1) possesses a reptile and amphibian stamp issued to the person by the department and does not use a trap; or

(2) is described by Section 43.905.

(d) A person must wear reflective clothing when engaging in the capture by nonlethal means of a reptile or amphibian under a stamp issued by the department. The clothing must have at least 144 square inches of reflective material on both the front and back of the clothing.

(e) A person may not use an artificial light from a motor vehicle in locating, capturing, or attempting to capture a reptile or amphibian under Subsection (c).

Added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1159, Sec. 44, eff. June 15, 2007.Amended by: Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 1351, Sec. 2, eff. September 1, 2011.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PW/htm/PW.62.htm#62.0031

L. David Sinclair
Colonel - Interim Division Director

Do they make a vest that list that it has 144 square inches of reflective material on the front and another 144 square inches on the back?

Do they make these in a child's size? Or will our kids be putting on something that fits like tent coming down to the knees?

The link below is a typical vest on Amazon, not expensive, not fancy, looks like it has about as much reflective material as anything else you will find. But I have no idea how many square inches it has to offer, and that would vary with the size of the vest. Instead there is a standard listed as "ANSI" / "ISEA" and Class-2 for this vest. Would a vest on this accepted standards be OK?

I really have no idea on this detail short of taking a measurement on the vest after getting one in hand to see if it stacks up to that requirement.

Will they in the execution of stop take out a ruler and measure our vest for us and issue a citation if we are a little short?

I wonder how this is easier to see than the 600 - 1200 lumens of LED light the typical hunter is just blooming with???

I do wonder if an off the shelf vest exist that meets that standard. Sometimes, I think we are set up to fail here.

ANSI/ISEA Standards

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

This is the whole point of all of this nonsense Lance. They are wanting us to fail.

144 square inches is just a square foot. Doesn't seem like that is too much reflective material to put on a vest. I'm sure that any commercial vest will have this much on it on both front and back as well

Lance,

ANSI Class 3 vests exceed the 144 sq in requirement, so that is the most expedient way to "buy yourself into compliance." The smallest size I found was an adult Medium, so yes, my kid will look like she's wearing a robe.

She'll probably be LESS safe, what with the restricted freedom of movement, but I don't think anyone's ever accused legislators of considering unintended consequences.

Regarding the email from Major Sinclair to Jeff Barringer: Sinclair may THINK it's very clear, but it's not, because whoever came up with the wording doesn't understand the importance of grammar, particularly the judicious use of a comma. I think one could easily argue in a court of law (for those with sufficient free time) that the wording could be construed as meaning "144 inches, [with that total comprised of material] on both the front and back."

However, if the guidance given to LE is to check for a full square foot on the front AND a full square foot on the back, do I want to spend time quibbling on the ROW when I could be herping? And does being a smart aleck with them make them want to send me on my merry herping way, or make them want to search my vehicle or look for other things to "nail me" for?

I bought the Class 3 vests.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Don't get me wrong, my first effort is to be left alone. Failing that my backup plan is to be on my way again as quick as I can without complications.

The problem I have is that the vest I see are not listed and sold with any indication of the surface area of reflective material. The regulations if well thought out on the vest would issue a known standard for the vest that can you can figure out looking at a tag or stamp on the vest. Class-2 Class-3 or whatever.

And this is just one item of concern I have from a whole list of things in this new law. I am glad we can be back out again and there is a way to herp in TX now. But my optimism will only go as far as to call this a first draft, there is still a long way to go to make it sensible and right.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I don't for a second believe anyone is going to get in trouble because they don't have enough square inches of reflective tape. I'm not sure most the LE would even know the number required or how to calculate it.

There is always the option of a do-it-yourself vest. Just buy a lighweight vest and a roll of reflective tape. You could then customize your own jacket.

The law doesn't say the reflective tape has to be in any particular pattern. So you could get creative with your customization. I wonder how many square inches of reflective tape it would take to spell out, "HEY LE, BITE MY" and then have an arrow pointing down?

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I may have to make my own vest after all, one that makes a personal statement.. intead of this mail order thing I have...
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Lots of good points, you are right about the wording. I have spent days researching this stuff and have learned more about ANSI , mutco, and OSHA standards than I really needed to know.
I have always read it as 144 as it reads not 288, that is David reading words into the bill that do not exist. I can further substantiate this, law enforcement, crossing guard, highway workers, texdot, usdot and others only require a class 2 vest not a class 3. What jury would see that you out snake hunting off the roadway would need more than someone working in the roadway. Assuming you want to fight it!!!!

I do see this is bad legislation, this has given tp&w many angles to fine you that weren't there before. Prior to this law passing you could be out there and if the tree feel but no one saw it fall did it really fall so to speak. Now regardless whether or not your seen hunting you can be stopped and ticketed for:

1) no stamp
2) stamp not signed
3) no vest
4) vest not right size
5) using your headlights
6) or driving down the road with any reptile products and falil to provide a stamp is guilty as worded. ( I allways have a hook that has never touched a snake, I use it for arrow head hunting)

There is allot of problems with this bill these are only a few, it seems pretty easy to comply but as many of you have seen over the last 20 years it is just more micro managing and a personal agenda for something that was not broke. Time will only tell we're it goes.

Most of you know by my post over the last ten years I only take pics so this stuff doesn't pertain to me and a few others on here, however my beef is its another erosion of rights. I don't want to loose any more freedoms whether I choose to use them or not. I want to protect my freedoms no matter how small they are and this is only a small erosion of them that has occurred in recent years.

I look forward to seeing u all there in sanderson and these can be topics of discussion Friday eve.

I find it hard to believe that you could be stopped and ticketed for all the things you have referenced if you're not actively engaged in hunting.

Also, I'd like to point out that in the referenced code it doesn't reference anything about 'classes' of vests that are required. Further, it doesn't even say you need to have a vest - just reflective 'clothing.' Therefore you don't have to worry about layers, you could simply buy the reflective tape and affix it to a t-shirt. I think people are focusing on the vest just because it is what it commonly seen on highway workers.

I don't agree about the 144 inches being the total. As read in the code there are 144 inches required on the front and the back. The operative word in the code is 'both.' If the word is left out then 144 would be the total, but with 'both' there it necessitates 144 on each side.

1. Keep a very clean interior of your car. Store un-needed mess in the trunk. Why? it just looks better.
2. Stop giving so many specifics if your pulled over. Just answer casually like you would to a neighbor. "What are you doing?".. "Observing West Texas at Night". "Looking for anything in particular?" "no".
3. Be courteous and hand over any requested documentation without a fight. Arguments will always be lost on the side of the road. And you will be the loser. They have the badge, you do not. So don't forget it.
4. Keep a video cam with you to record stops at all times. They have them on so you might as well have one on too.
5. Don't go out West with a "confrontational attitude". People normally get what they ask for. Want confrontation, you will most likely get it. Go out and enjoy the beautiful scenery and have fun. Every hobby has rules. Our rules are not the best we could hope for but if we abide by them then maybe we can get some more options to open up for us.

Good Luck!

StevenX

Thank you very all well taken, i think that is a great start. We may expand a few more at a later date but good job all in all.

Those of you that know me well know ill argue with a fence post for 4-6 hours just because i can, i can tell you i will be like a flipping mime at this event just to ensure there is nothing going wrong.

No your right it could be on a hat pants anything like that so no it doesnt say vest, the vest was a word thrown out there way back by legislatures. Most people figured it was easier to comply by just carring a vest with them rather than trying to stick tape every. The class of vest isnt listed that is what makes it confusing because most vest if you are going to go that direction isnt sold by square inches it goes by class, along the way a few folks within TP&W and other places said class 2 verbally, i believe this was derived because thats what the standards are through osha, mutco, usdot and texdot are. So simple minded as we all are we figure well hell we must be being held to the same standard. NOT!!!!! So there is the skiny, lots of misleading info including to and from myself we all know the word ASUME right.

Now to the other, if you think you cant or wont be ticketed under what i listed you may be out of touch with things that have happened in the last 20 years or so in texas, there is a pending case of a kid ridding in a car (not out hunting but ridding) that was ticketed for the wrong vest. So it can and does happen, sure he will win but his parents have to pony up the money to hire an attorney, do you know how many out of towners get ticketed but decide its cheaper to pay it than fight it???????????? its been a few

Now to the other, if you think you cant or wont be ticketed under what i listed you may be out of touch with things that have happened in the last 20 years or so in texas

I think getting cited for missing/incorrect reflective material would be something that would only happen once a herper has done something else questionable; in other words, you are spotted allegedly violating some random provision of the code and then LE can start "piling on" to ensure something sticks...but that's just my opinion.

there is a pending case of a kid ridding in a car (not out hunting but ridding) that was ticketed for the wrong vest.

Is there a source to get particulars on this case and other similar ones? It's almost as if violations are going to go UP, despite overall number of herpers likely less than before the ban in the first place. Very clever on TPWD's part.

do you know how many out of towners get ticketed but decide its cheaper to pay it than fight it???????????? its been a few

And that's bad for everyone, because it sets a precedent.

I think it's important, as others have already said, to be courteous and non-confrontational. LE folks are people too, for the most part just trying to do their jobs.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I know who ended up with it, and he got it sitting in the back of the car when BP pulled them over. BP was being shadowed by TP&W LE at the time and walked up to take part in that stop.

I will not start dropping names on the internet though as that is jut not good form, but this did happen. I met the guy for the first time this year as he was riding down with long time herping friend we all know here.

So in short, this did happen, and it goes to show how the game will be played by at least some members of LE. Which leads to the following advice:

1 - mind your P's and Q's out there, give no reason to be pulled over, but you will be pulled over anyway at some point.

2 - cooperate, but record any LE encounter if you can, I have not seen many cell phones that do not have a video feature, even if it is too dark to see you can still hear.

3 - if you get a citation, for anything at all, fight it. As a whole we do not want a record of any violations out there.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

According to ANSI the type 2 vest does not meet the requirement of 288 square inches it has a total of 201 square inches.
The type 3 vest does meet the requirement of 288 square it has a total of 310 square inches.
I can see where LE interpretation is going to cause some issues with this. Personally i will buy the type 3 vest so there will be no doubt on the issue.

Clark

I happened across this company - http://www.safetysupplyinc.com/ and since I live in their hometown I drove to their storefront and bought a vest. Unfortunately the one I bought isn't on their website for some reason, but it was product number 473039.

The mesh vest made by Lakeland, is ANSI 3 compliant and has more than enough reflective material. When I measured it, I figured out it has 144 inches front and back on the body of the vest and the sleeves have an additional 44 square inches front and back. Therefore, I can cut the sleeves off and be compliant and comfortable.

It is unbelievably bright ORANGE!!! with yellow green reflective tape. The only person who wouldn't see me shouldn't be driving.

It has zipper closure, not velcro and the best part was the price - $12.88!

Downside, the tape is a bit heavy as it is plastic covered, and there is only one pocket.

But I'll be styling out there on the catwalk....I mean roadcut.

If you are headed to snakedays and don't have anything yet, the place is just off I-35 on the north side of San Antonio.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas