Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know the background on the scaleless glades? Are these true or are they crossed with the Texas rat? I am considering one.
thanks
Allen

They're supposed to be true. They are said to have originated in the sugarcane fields south of Lake Okeechobee.
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www.brooksi.com

"They're supposed to be true. They are said to have originated in the sugarcane fields south of Lake Okeechobee"

Yeah, but not surprisingly, anything fetching many hundreds of dollars is generally "said" to be true and genuinely authentic..

I have no idea if they are or are not personally, but I find it extremely odd that there is now also scaless Yellow rats as well as Everglades. I do know the very first scaleless so-called "cornsnake" is actually a 100% KNOWN emoryi x guttatus cross that originated in France in 2002 by Stephane Rosselle of "Reptilis".

I don't see it being very difficult or time consuming to produce an Everglades out of a Yellow Rat, or vice-versa and make it pretty convincing looking either, especially since none of the scaleless snakes in the hobby have much in the way of real detailed meristic features to begin with that you can really put your finger on.

Furthermore, some of the scaleless "Everglades" I have seen listed in the past look completely bogus to me. This one for example that was sold last year......The color looks way off, the saddle blotches are huge (as in many Texas Rats), and I don't see anything that even resembles orange or orange/red irises whatsoever either. Matter of fact, the irises look extremely pale and I have seen many authentic Texas Rats with that iris coloration, as well as darker gray. Maybe it was a F-1 from the first cross breeding attempt, and still took more after the Texas Rat's characteristics, who knows..LOL!

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270463

I also have to wonder why more of these origins and actual names of these people that are coming up with these things aren't known by someone that IS well-known. The things just pop up out of the clear blue one day and become available without anyone hearing about who had the first ones or knowing where they really came from. Seems to me this info would be more widely and proudly bragged about with this crazy stuff. It's generally with stuff people want to shuffle in as real that it is kept more quiet about, but there are certainly many exceptions to this.

Anyway, I'd like to ask him some time about the precise origin of this animal myself. At the very least, this one looks 10 times more convincing to me than some do. The Scaleless Yellow Rat I saw looked to be pretty convincing too, but I just don't know what to think about any of them as far as 100% authenticity goes, with the exception of many of the Texas Rats. They are pretty simple to identify, not to mention it would be the other types that would be passed-off as real, since they were the original scaleless and have been around longer so the price would be less than other "new" species/ssp.

Nick, do you happen to know if the scaleless Everglades itself was supposed to have originated from south of the lake?, or the normal parents that produced it originated from there?

In any case, the scaleless corns definitely ain't corns, some would be from the original emoryi x corn from France, and some would likely be Texas rat x corns, then back-bred some to be more convincing as corns. I have the translated article from the original breeder, so there isn't any question about those.

In France, the guy has all sorts of morphs now, including scaleless blood diffused), amel, anery, reverse Okeetee, hypo lavender, and green snow.

By the same token though, I have seen some of these Everglades that do look very convincing to me as possibly being authentic scaleless Everglades like this one Don Hamper had on his table at Tinley Park just a while back. Photo not taken by me. A friend on another forum did.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The fact that there are both scaleless Everglades and yellows does not strike me as odd. It's probably a case of "one man's Everglades is another man's yellow." The identities of rat snakes from that region is subjective. I saw the same thing with whitesided Everglades/yellow rats.

I didn't get any more details than I already posted, and my information was at least second-hand. I've seen doubt cast on the authenticity of the trait. From the snakes adopting the typical Texas rat defensive posture to the adult hets being blotchy.

The popularity of creamsicle has probably lead to a lot of corn snakes in the hobby being somewhat impure. I've known several guys that would cross their creamsicles into other stuff and sell the offspring off as corn snakes without mention of their emoryi background.
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www.brooksi.com

Well, yes, there's no doubt at all that one person's Yellow Rat is certainly another's Everglades Rat. We both know that has always been the case with normals, and they are very likely nothing more than noteable color variants of the same thing anyway. What I wonder more about is if both the Yellow and the Everglades didn't actually originate from the Texas rat.
This will always be like the old "Tootsie-Pop" TV commercial of the 1970's.........

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I noticed Ben Siegel has some in the classifieds right now, so I assume you're talking about his? I got a female scaleless yellow from him recently and a male possible het. I was told the male was a TX x yellow cross and it looks the part, but concerning the scaleless they said "to the best of my knowledge these are pure everglades." I personally wouldn't put much stock in the idea of scaleless glades just popping up out of the blue unrelated to the scaleless TX rats, but it is possible, no matter how unlikely. All of the others I've seen look more orange and typical of what we in the hobby call glades rats. I thought this girl was interesting since she looks more like a typical yellow...if a typical yellow didn't have scales.

Give her some time. She looks like a typical juvenile Everglades rat snake to me, minus the scales.
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www.brooksi.com

Thanks for the post Kevin. No, I wasn't referring to Ben's in particular, just wonder about the origins of some of the different types in general. I know the original scaleless Texas were indeed Texas rats, and that the scaleless "corns" are emoryi x corn originating from France in 2002 (Stephane Rosselli). Just wonder who the first Yellow, and/or Everglades actually traces back to, and how they actually became. Someone somewhere knows this,....the question is who?. We know they don't just crawl into a labeled deli cup, they have to be put there by someone. And somewhere they were placed in one for the very first time. The real question is by who?..

I will try to find out more about them in a couple more weeks and see what I can come up with.

BTW,..cool looking animal Kevin!

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I just assumed they were the result of crosses to scaleless Texas rats until I started hearing otherwise. If a new line had been discovered, you'd think there would be much more emphasis on marketing them as separate though. It seems very suspicious to me and I'd still put my money on them being TX crosses based on the limited info so far. If it helps, I know the Siegels are getting theirs from Gourmet Rodent.

Exacty Kevin!....That is how I see it too. I would also think there would be MUCH more emphasis on the originator of these (as well as others acquiring them as breeder stock) to very LOUDLY emphasize that they are not in any way composites of a Texas crossing if this was the case.

I am going to look into some of this and see if the people's stories just lead around in a big obscure circle, or if it eventually leads to an actual source!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

They may have originated at Gourmet Rodent, which produces snakes for pet stores more so than serious hobbyists. They also had Mosaic FL kings before anyone else, and that was another case where people had to dig to get the origin.
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www.brooksi.com

Yeah, any number of scenarios are all possible.. *shrug*

Going to Daytona?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Not quite sure yet. I'm about due to leave this state for a while.
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www.brooksi.com