Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Your missing the point about diet. The approach of a varied diet is addressed in two basic ways.Hmmm at least two basic ways.

One is the insecurity of the keeper, like you mentioned. You do not understand what a good diet is, so you try everything. While you rationalize it well, your so off base. There is always the question of theory vs. repeated results. In this case, there IS repeated reliable results.

My recomendations are based of extensive experience, That is what is KNOWN AND PROVEN, rodents(mice) are PROVEN to be a superior diet. That is, generations upon generations of many many species of monitors. My own personal experience, not what I read or heard from some other yahooo.

To pacify some others, surperior means, amoungst the best dietary item. We can debate which is "the" best, at another time, if at all.

But that does not mean, thats all you should feed, its odd to me that folks tend to think in that old sorry, A or Z, that is, one way of the other. Rodents as superior as a BASE of any diet and even as a stand alone. All that means is, you can rely on it. Thats a freedom that should be understood and utilized. Of course, you can do things the hard way if you like. Or any other way.

The next area, that stimulaiton you mention, is a bit odd. If you kept monitors, any and all prey items stimilate them. WHats stimulating to them is a full stomach. kinda like my dog! What actually stimlates them is capturing and KILLING live prey items. And thats the truth!!!!!!!

The problem is, when dealing with a newbie, your making something simple, DIFFICULT. If I were a newbie, I would want to know what is PROVEN to work, so I could concentrate on what is actually questionable. Like conditions and substrate and dehydration, nesting and such, you know REAL problems. Just the subject of substrate or deep substrate needs lots of attention.

In this case, Diet items is NOT the problem, caging and conditions, normally are the problem. Newbies need to work on what the ACTUAL problem is, not what blows your shorts up. You say you think this and that about diet, great, your thinking which is what I do like to see in a keeper. But in this case, you do not have to think. Not about base diet. Of course, once your captive is thriving, you can play to your hearts content. Or think(theorize) until your ears turn blue.

Newbies really need to address the damage other keepers or importers have levied on their monitor. Its rare to recieve a non compromised individual monitor. In otherwords, most individuals you recieve are screwed up in some way. That needs your attention. Your full attention

About mertens, I have spent time watching them in nature. Crayfish, I am not sure they occur there, prawns is what they call them, yabbies, mudbugs, etc are local common names. But mostly crabs and fish, are taken. (personal observations)

They will take frogs by the millions. In the dry season, the above and in particular frogs congregate in ponds(billibongs, sp) and are harvested in mass.

Also, if a bird falls near or in the water, its taken, and if a kangaroo is hit on the road, they will consume it too. Again, monitors do not turn up their nose to a decent meal. It seems to me, what they do is, seek a steady reliable source of food and utilize it. COMPLETELY

Rubbish piles, chicken ranches, behind restarants, hotels, all attract monitors. Even fast food places. Of course the old picinic table monitors(Park monitors) are common in Australia. They consume garbage and do well. Its conditions that determine their overall health, dietary items, not so much.

They all seem to florish fine, if not better then their natural brothers. ITs not about the type, more about how much and how often. They then stay with that prey item until its gone. ITs what they do. Its why they stay at rubbish tips and picinic tables. A reliable food source.

But sadly, that is not the problem with captives. The problem is caging and misguided ideas about what a varanid is. They are a ectotherm raccoon.

Again, for newbies, it SHOULD be handy to know what WORKS, so you can work on what really needs work. Cheers

p.s. those neonates are products of a mouse diet. Also they all hatched on the same day, in the same egg box. hahahahahahaha just cute thats all.

HI FR,
I appreciate the patient explanation you provided. I am trying to learn all I can before jumping in, and I am not sure which point you think I missed... But it's mostly new to me and I am open to new ideas. I don't even know what I don't know at this point.

Here is what I have learned: Habitat is where it's at, and certain characteristics of the vivarium are essential, i.e. the deep substrate, shelters and variable temp basking areas with pretty high temps available over a fairly broad surface, and the Retes stack is one simple way to provide that. Multiple shelters allowing retreat for congeners is important, nesting sites, basking etc. When the time comes and I have it all set, I will seek out a group of hatchlings and introduce them, watching carefully for pairing and tolerance behavior, recognizing some may be rejected, and not work out. I will seek out the best and healthiest captive bred/hatched stock available to me, I know it is better and usually cheaper in the long run. I understand that many keepers fail to provide suitable habitat, and the monitors often decline or fail to reach their potential, since they are struggling to survive...and have less energy for feeding, breeding,and just being healthy and intelligent monitors.

Not sure what impression I gave you regarding stimulation of monitors/captives. What I had in mind is offering some variety, such as an occassional unusual ie. crayfish, or scarce food item, or making it a challenge to catch the prey, or providing new and curious items to inspect, just a few and simple things to add something to the daily existence within the territory. I even do it with my Indigos, making them go into pipes or outside and the like to find the prey, and sometimes offering something unusual in captivity. I understand monitors are pretty oportunistic predators, and like tortoises and ourselves, will consume things with gusto that may not necessarily be in their best interest long term. I understand that whole bodied prey, especally rodents are hard to beat, monitors of many species will thrive on them as evidenced by your success breeding and establishing them. I can not argue with success, and I have no doubt there is validity and credibility in what you say. It is my M.O. to seek out the best and most skilled folks in almost anything I take an interest in, as they have a lot to offer and can save me from so many mistakes with a word of guidance. I am open to it. I also know that one must winnow the chaff from the grain, and free advice has varying value at times, I assure you I do not believe all I hear and read. I also know that sometimes there are multiple ways to achieve an end. When the time comes, depending on the species I choose, I will definatley seek out your opinion and that of the breeder who produced them, and I will do as you advise, perhaps fine tuning it over time to provide for the individual quirks of a particular specimen and my situation. I try hard to provide ongoing support to anyone who wants it when they buy an animal from me, and I expect the same, it is part of the reason I am willing to pay for the best, not always the cheapest.

Like your self and our down under friends, I plan to journey to Australia, stay quite a few months (it won't be cheap) and see monitors in the wild. I will do this before I acquire them as I know it is hard to find anyone who would care for them adequately long term. I will state I did not intend to mislead or persuade anyone on what is best for monitor care, I lack experience, but I have plenty with crayfish trappin'! I am grateful to you and many other skilled keepers on the various forums from whom I have learned a lot. I will be hanging out with ya'll. BTW, I liked your analogy to a raccoon, and I will keep that loosely in mind when designing and fabricating and watching behavior. Clearly monitors are not your average lizard...they are quite demanding...and they do really well, usually best, on a rodent based diet!

Gratefully,Vic

Hello. The problem is and again, CONTEXT. most if not all of these diet arguements here on KS, are not about me or The crayfish guy or Crocdoc. They are started by a newbie. That is the context. A person new to the hobby.

Our hobby has very very few actual successful keepers and is filled with failing husbandry. Yet all talk like experts. Yes, they are experts, just not successful husbandry experts. Again context.

So the recomendation of mice or rodents, is intended for the newbie. Not other so called experts( I say so called, because the way they argue, I have to question the depth of their knowledge, they appear very insecure)

For a newbie with a larger species, rodents are KNOWN and proven and easily available. They have proven superior in all aspects, such as supporting growth, reproduction, color, and longevity. I think I would be STUPID to not recomend that.

Back to context, what others do is want to offer a newbie, a multiple choice answer, when the newbie has not learned how the MAKE THAT CHOICE YET!

As I mentioned, other food items are OK, which means they work ok. But rodents are proven, which should give the newbie a solid base to work FROM.

As you mentioned, its caging that supports the success of varanids. That is WHAT NEEDS attention. The crayfish boys are a bit odd about that, they only talk about crayfish and one species of monitor. I cannot figure that out, so they can explain it if they so desire.

You mentioned food items and color. Which has some valid points. If you have to add a certain type of prey item to recieve normal colors, then the original prey base is LACKING. That is true with many reptiles and also true to a point with varanids. Unhealthy varanids are drab. Healthy varanids are vibrant.

To that point, I will post pictures of varanids that were raised without UV bulbs and on mice that are more colorful, and vibrant then you can imagine. I will go toe to toe with anyone. I pray there are some out there with equally colorful and vibrant monitors. I sure hope there is. If there is, I would not be the loser, It would be a win win win win type of thing.

What I am saying here is your theory about varied diet is logical, but has been proven obsolete. A varied diet is of benefit only if the all the items are lacking and other items must overcome that lack.

Now for the lesson. My vet taught me some valueable lessons. He told me that many food items subtract from the value and others add. Like certain items cause vitamin loss.

As an example, a really good friend has a child that was born with some problems. As she grew older, they wanted to vary her diet to include items other then mothers milk. The doc explained, that mothers milk was the best and anything else is LESS THEN, not more then. This concept is important. When varying a diet, you have to make sure your not offering LESS then. And if you do, at least you should be AWARE of what your doing.

As you theorized that a varied diet is MORE THEN, you were wrong with it comes to rodents and larger varanid species. In this case, so far, rodents or mice, are the mothers milk. And like mothers milk, its usable fat content that is the key. Both are RICH foods.

And like all rich foods, the individual consuming that must have a method to burn or use that rich diet. If not, that yes, mice and their high fat content will become deleterious. ITs then you can switch to a low fat diet, low energy diet for non progressive individuals. Old males and non breeding old females. Or individuals kept very poorly.(undermetabolized= only using the lower levels of their metabolism)

So yes, its all about context, that thread and most if not all of the threads where I recomend mice/rodents, amoungst other whole prey items, is based on a newbie asking what to feed, NOT Ben or crocdoc or other successful folks.

As you may have read, if those guys want to debate which prey item that WORKS, is better or works better, I will indeed play that game, but sadly, they run off and are for some reason afraid to compare successful results to other successful results. To clarify my feelings, when comparing different levels of SUCCESS, there are NO LOSERS. There are only winners. Yet those folks seem to be very insecure about how other people view them and are so very afraid to compare their wonderful successful results.

YOu see, real learning comes from comparing many levels of success. Sorry for the rant. I hope this rant enlightens you.

In short, if your new, its valuable to know some base parts of husbandry that are solid. That way, you can work on what is NOT SOLID.

After a newbie has a handle of varanid husbandry, then its fun to play and test and expand and enligthen and stimulate, etc

There is a time for all of that, after you have the basics down.

I apologise if I offended anyone, but this debate is so so silly and out of context to those people that get offended. ITs about newbies and solid information. Cheers

Actually, a baby less than 6 months old can't digest anything very well other than mothers milk or formula... They need to drink at least 8 ounces many times a day, I forgot how many times exactly. you can start introducing solids after they are 6 months of age, but they still need to drink formula certain amount, but you can cut back. AFter one year, they can pretty much get protein from eggs and meat I believe, and other nutrients from other food, but can now drink cow's milk, which is lower in nutrients, but they still drink milk certain amount each day.

But if it was whole rodent, I wouldn't worried about variety. Whole vertebrate preys are nutritionally balanced and complete.... No need to add anything else.

Hi Paradon, that`s a useful bit of information on babies and milk, wouldn`t it be better to put it in the "Homo sapiens" forum, rather than the Varanid? (Just asking, no offense)...

You're probably right.

AGain context, first it was an example, maybe a poor one, but one none the less.

Also, the beautiful little girl was older then six months. As mentioned, that little girl had problems, but is so much better now. She spent much of you early life in intensive care.

The point was made, rodents seem to be like "mothers milk" and like mothers milk, there are other items that work. The question was, do they work better? or not as good? That is the question.

The question is have is, as long as we are on the mothers milk analogy. Mothers often choose to not use mothers milk based on convience or comfort, is that whats happening here????

Melissa Kaplan and Michale Balsi said the thing about feeding rodents to medium and large Varanids. They are much better; they're complete, balanced and more nutritious.

One small point. Those two authors did write, but I am not sure how much personal experience they had.

In most cases, items like this are analized and not tested in the field(cages)

What I bring to the table is that testing. I am not going by theory or the nutrional make up of a mouse or rodent. I am going by generations upon generations, species after species, of actual use.

I am not a A or Z person, I do not know What the actual "Best" food item is, nor do I care. What I care about is actual results, and that I have.

What is odd is this precieved prey set of natural monitors. Of course they have that, but that is not important to captivity, unless that prey is ALL they ate and refused to consume available food items we have at hand. That is not the case. Varanids, consume a huge range of food types, as mentioned.

What is odd is, the most handy of captive food items, rodents, works well. I say superior, and I have the right to say that, as I will indeed weight any other diet that produced the equal results we have seen as we have seen with rodents.

As mentioned by others and I, its not entirely the prey item that produces superior results, in fact, if given mice and kept in poor conditions, the monitors will still fail. Its cage conditions that express the Value of a diet or food item.

Others do not want to talk about that. It seems they are food items promoters, hahahahahahahaha.

Again, My standard statement is, WHOLE FOOD ITEMS" work best. Amougst those whole food items, rodents or mice, work extremely well.

Lastly, we are working with INDIVIDUAL animals, and that is more important then SPECIES. Some have individual preferences. An example is my work with Croc monitors. My first group, were totally afraid of BIRDS. Got me. THe female I have now, loves birds. My Lacies would leap thru the air in an attempt to catch birds as they flew by. This female croc monitor does the same, She will jump around like a pogo stick to get at birds.

Yet, her base diet is rodents. Yet if a bird hits the window or is fresh dead on the road, she gets it. And yea, she eats rodents, just not her favorite.

The real point is, rodents are something a newbie can rely on and base the rest of their husbandry on.

The common misunderstanding here is, tricking monitors to feed. Thats an old fashion snake trick. Monitors are not picky, a normal monitor under middle of the road conditions, eats the food item, the tongs holding the food item, your fingers(got scares) the hand the fingers are connected to, up to the elbow, before it decides you are not food. Thats normal.

If you have to trick a monitor, then something is seriously wrong and that is what needs work. Cheers

I think Michael Balsai has kept and bred quite a few, including tegu, but Melissa Kaplan only kept a few when she did a reptile rescue out of her home. They both agree, though, that rodent base diet is best for medium and large monitors like you said. I was reading their work because I don't think too many breeders are willing to share information and keep all the success to themselves. Those two are the only reliable sources that are willing to share. [shrug]

Hoarding information is just as bad as neglecting your pet...

I think your wrong, its not about hording information. Its lack of information.

There are so very few that are actually successful with monitors. Cheers

Fish is good too, and also a "complete" meal, with less fat in many cases. Though I personally have always used a rodent based diet with the species I`ve kept and will continue to do so, along with some variety.

You underlined a snippet of text from an approximately 15 year old series of articles. Even though you clearly are attempting to discredit Frank by insinuating that he is providing contradictory information by recommending rodents now, when he seeminly advised against them in the past. However, even though you took that snippet totally out of context, we can still partially see the column of text to the right, in which Frank discusses that varanids need foods based on metabolic need and age. Such as the need for more calorically rich foods during growth and reproduction stages of life and restriction of calories to prevent obesity in old age. Clearly, based just on the text you weren't able to crop out, we can see that there is much more to Frank's response than you'd have us believe in your underlined sentence. I have all three parts of that Vivarium interview and the overwhelming majority of the information presented then, is still of great value today.

I wonder why someone would try to distract from an informative post regarding diet that could be very helpful to people? Hmmmm.

Will

Hi Will, That was a very unsual time. In fact, Phillipe wrote that articule not to promote me, but instead to promote the keeping of small reptiles. He was a fan of expressing more with smaller reptiles. And doing so with complex caging. Caging that was pleasing to both the keeper and the kept. Which made me a fan of his.

At that time I avoided talks or interviews, the reason was, I was at the bottom of a very steep learning curve. Each week that pasted, I doubled my understanding of varanids. The vast majority of my field work and captive success was still ahead of me.

I often confused the varanid keepers of the time and they did not like me for it. I conterdicted myself on a regular basis, and as you know, I still do. I have no problem deleting what I think and relearning it. I think education is suppose to cause that.

I did not have lots of great teachers when I was young, but I had a few. One taught me that knowledge is a river that constantly flows and changes. It grows and becomes something it was not. Its never the same, its always changing, its always on its way to be something else.

If you break down a river to its base, its H2O. But that can never ever explain or capture a river.

I do defend what I think, but if I see I need to adjust, I do so if the evidence dictates that. And it did on a constant basis. I hope it continues

The problem with these fellas is, they are afraid to be wrong. So they break it down to something they can understand and be RIGHT about. Even out of context sentences.

Unfortunately, its not about right or wrong. To bad, or these folks would be great people.

ITs about results, and in that, they and I are total failures. The hobby is no different today then it was then. The vast majority of captive monitors, DIE QUICKLY, without the benefit of recieving life events.

I hope I have helped, but all in all, a failure.

I believe the reason for such failure is, I was too successful. My success seperated me from them. To bad, that is not such a good thing.

I am different, I am not afraid to be wrong. When testing, your wrong most of the time. THese folks FEAR that. So they do not test. They simply go by whats accepted amoungst themselves. Which is fun and all, but I love results.

You see, the successful results of this testing, TAKES YOU OUT OF THE EQUASION. Or its suppose to. I guess They did not read that memo. So they make it about me.

I wish they would attack the monitors, in my care.

So all the while I am writing this, there is music in my head, ITs something like, "I think I love you, I think I love you". Will, they must love me. Why would they even bother or know what was written about me, 20 years ago. Two darn decades. Its me bum I tell you, its a nice bum! ITs old, but its CLEAN!(a hard days night, the lads from Liverpool)

One of the key to success is diet. I think Frank hit the nail's head on this one. Hippocrates said: "Let the food be the medicine and medicine be the food." If you eat a good balanced meal and you eat good food everyday, you'd feel better. You are what you eat. The same is true for animals. Literally everyday, the food that we eat builds are cells. If you eat good food, you will feel better.

You guys really are funny, I must be a religion to you.

Ever heard of context, we keep talking about it. That articule was based on what I did from 1991 to about 93, which was all ODATRIA. and that statement for me was true. And still is.

Also, I do confuse you because I change, hmmmmmmm thats called learning, you really should try it.

What we are talking about here is LARGER monitors. Or did you miss that?

I am really starting to see why it takes you guys decades to accomplish what others do in a year. You live in the past.

Get your nose out of the old mags and work.

Oh and that cage is a bit different NOW, thats what happens with time and learning. Cheers

Now i am gonna have to call back the stonemason/engraver and the tattoo guy... that really was just for just odatria?Now you
tell me....