Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I posted this picture on a different forum because I was concerned that my corn might be a bit big for his age (he was hatched May/June of 2011, and it currently 37in and around 280g). The general consensus from those kind folks is that he is big, but not overweight and I should reduce feeding.

However, one person pointed out that he might naturally be a bit heavy bodied because they thought he might have some Great Plains Rat Snake in his lineage, based on my weight concern and his pattern.

So I present to this pool of experts the same question and ask, does he look like a regular Carolina wild type of corn, or could he have some Emoryi in him?

I made this post on the other forum too just in case.....

I don't see anything that would lead me to suspect any emoryi influence in that animal whatsoever, and I don't think it is overweight either. I think it is simply a big Carolina (very possibly Okeetee origin) that can naturally have a genetic predispostion for being quite large corns. As a matter of fact, The very largest corns pushing upwards of 6 feet are typically Okeetee type corns from that general S. Carolina area. I have seen some monsters in the past that were all Okeetees.

I'd like for someone to point out to me these alleged "emoryi" features they are seeing...

Very nice corn BTW!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thank you for the compliments. I also made this post in the rat snake forum.

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Funny you should mention that he looks like an Okeetee. He was sold to me as one (and I trusted the seller). The people on the other website told me he was not an Okeetee because he lacked the thick black borders that are typical of one (as seen for example in the photos from Ians Vivarium).

I thought it would be hard for him to be fat given how young he is. My will concur, I've simply been saying he's going to be a big snake. I would be happy either way, giant Okeetee or regular Carolina, or whatever. I think he's awesome.

Sure thing man. It sure is a nice looking corn. Seems I always make a post on the opposite forum..LOL!

I'll post it here again so others here can see it as well.

Yeah, the people on the other forum don't know what they are talking about. Not all so-called Okeetees necessarily have extremely thick black borders anyway, especially the locality specimens. It just so happens that many do and of course because many years ago captive-breeders like Kathy Love, Lee Abbott, and Jeff Cochran selectively-bred for those characteristic because it is a very eye pleasing phenotype. Also, the term "Okeetee" can be very misleading and mean VERY different things to different people in the hobby.

See, starting back several decades ago, the term "Okeetee" was applied to cornsnakes that are richly colored with orange and deep red blotch saddles because the 50,000 acre Okeetee Gun Club estate in Jasper, South Carolina tended to have some very vivid and colorful corns that could be found there. This is the phenotype that has been bred for now for many years, and Lee Abbott really keyed in on the thick black borders in his projects and now the look is basically a houshold name. They don't necessarily have to be locality-specific to be called Okeetees, but to distinguish between the two, I like to call the non-locale types "Okeetee phase" corns with an emphasis on "phase" at the end.

True "Okeetee" corns are corns that that have traceable lineage actually ORIGINATING from the Okeetee Gun Club property, not just line-bred for the similar look. Not all locality-specific Okeetee corns will look like Lee Abbott's or Kathy Love's Okeetee's either, but some certainly do. The problem is most people in the hobby call almost any "classic" corn that is richly colored with vivid orange and deep red with thick black saddle borders an Okeetee, and they certainly are, just not necessarily locality-specific Okeetee stock is all. The important thing to keep in mind is are they actual locality Okeetees, or simply Okeetee "phase" animals?. They can have VERY similar looks, but one means a specific locale, and the other one means a certain "look" that the area was renowned for having.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if yours did originate from that locale, or at least parental stock that did.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah. I'm familair with hunt club vs phase options.

They original owner had to have some idea it was an Okeetee because as a baby he looked nothing like he does now.

If it helps, the snake was purchased from Pangea Pets in Gainesville, FL. The manager of the store seems to know his stuff very well and is connected to a variety of breeders in the area. I might even be able to get the name of the exact breeders from him. I'd be happy to know if my lil guy can be traced back to THE hunt club. It would make him more authentic instead of a knock off pseudo-Okeetee
We love him the same either way.

So as it turns out the snake was from a local breeder here in Gainesville. I don't have a name. The person I bought it from was Ben Cole, and Ben told me it was an Abbott's. He said I could also get it registered, but after looking at the website, it seems like a waste of $5.

I went to Lee abbott's webpage, and there wasn't much info there. anybody got anything more about his line?

Cool that he could verify that for you!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>I made this post on the other forum too just in case.....
>>
>> I don't see anything that would lead me to suspect any emoryi influence in that animal whatsoever, and I don't think it is overweight either. I think it is simply a big Carolina (very possibly Okeetee origin) that can naturally have a genetic predispostion for being quite large corns. As a matter of fact, The very largest corns pushing upwards of 6 feet are typically Okeetee type corns from that general S. Carolina area. I have seen some monsters in the past that were all Okeetees.
>>
>>I'd like for someone to point out to me these alleged "emoryi" features they are seeing...
>>
>>Very nice corn BTW!
>>
>>
>>~Doug
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'm with you Doug....snake has a nice girth for length, not over weight and definitely no emoryi influence that I see.
an emoryi and a corn

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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
Draybars Snakes

The corn picture I posted is of an Okeetee...yes there is a certain look associated with okeetees, like big dark bands but not all have them. That boy pictured was produced by pairing a South Mountain okeetee with a Love line okeetee...and in my humble opinion is one NICE specimen..lol
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
Draybars Snakes

Yep, I totally agree Jimmy. Both pics you posted are great representations of each type.......

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com