Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've had a 5' Andean for a few weeks now, and it has been very difficult to get him to keep mice down. I've tried different mice sizes and quantities (he won't eat the rats I bought for him), different temperatures, handling vs not, different times of day, different amounts of time between feedings, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I tend to either find the mouse regurged in whole or in part within a day or two of feeding, and it's really starting to get me worried. He started out thin and I want to get him up to a healthy size, but I can't even get started on that.

I need ideas. Do I need to take him to the vet to check for internal parasites (very costly and frankly, the last option)? Is there another health issue I should be looking for (nothing else in the books even comes close)? Is he in brumation and shouldn't be feeding at all (the temperature hasn't gotten below 70, much less 50-60)? Does he need vitamins?

He's got a big tank, two hides, a UTH and now a lamp as well during the night (keeping him in the 75-80 range should help him digest, right?), a big water dish, branches, aspen bedding, etc. My Kings and Corn have never regurged anything, so I don't know what I can possibly be doing wrong.

You MUST take care of what is actually causing the snake to regurgitate FIRST!!......you are in essence poisoning the snake to death by continually offering it food thinking this is helping. It is the exact opposite in all reality until the problem itself is addressed.

First,….DO NOT attempt to feed it more meals until it has been looked at by a competent vet and treated, I strongly suspect it has some very nasty intestinal bacteria going on from the putrid previous meals it could never digest because of your temperature being too cool, and/or the meals too large to be digested within those given temps. This can also happen from the water being fouled as well.

Yes, Andean's prefer slightly cooler temps than some others, but they still do best if allowed to thermoregulate with about a quarter to a third of their cage bottom surface to be in the mid 80's where it's belly actually makes contact so it can properly digest, then the rest of the enclosures ambient tems are good in the mid 70's. Do not guess at these temps either, as they should be closely monitored with an accurate thermometer or temp probe. The warm side directly at the enclosure floor SURFACE, and the opposite end towards the bottom ambient air temp. I would bet a two-dose regimen of Flagyl(metronidazole) could EASILY be all that is needed here. This will kill any bad protozoa and many bacterial pathogens, as WELL as the GOOD bacteria that is needed for proper digestion, so STOP offering it any food until the snake has been looked at and treated. Feeding at this point will only lead to more regurges and a DEFINITE downward spiral that will end up killing it for sure!. Offering food at this point is the very WORST thing you could do right now until you tackle the intestinal problem going on ASAP!.

Hopefully the vet will know the proper course of action, but MANY vets don't know diddly squat about reptile medicine whatsoever. The snake should get a dose of of Flagyl at the rate of 50 mg./per kg. of body weight given orally, and another follow-up dose 10 to 14 days later. NO FOOD should be offered until at LEAST a good week or so AFTER the last dose so the snake can replenish it's vital acids, electrolytes, enzymes and gut flora before being fed again. And when it IS fed again, they should be very small meals for a while to make certain they stay down and are digested properly, you cannot afford for this to happen any more whatsoever.

After several VERY small meals, you could GRADUALLY increase the size back to normal, just make sure you don't offer large meals initially that will only makes it tough on the snake's system. Again, the snake CANNOT afford any more regurgitations!

Sometimes snakes start this from fouled water too, or even in conjunction with temps that are too cool to properly digest. I would bet a dollar to a donut some Flagyl at the proper dosing will take care of this. Flagyl is very reptile friendly too, and I have administered this a few times over the years with phenomenal success. Others that have also followed this advice to the letter have later told me this literally saved the lives of their snakes too that were right on deaths doorstep because of this very same thing.

After this happening over and over again, your snake is on it's last leg, so it living or dying is all up to you with paying close attention to every single one of these details I mentioned.

Right now, I would get a setup ready that has a far warm end floor temp of about 84 so it's natural metabolism can be raised a bit more to help fight the bacteria while you make an appointment to get treated at the vet.

I would also print this out to show the vet what to do in case he/she seems inexperienced with this. Many will act like they know about reptiles, but go into the back room and look at a book for advice on a certain problem.

A fecal floatation and Flagyl (Metronidazole) treatment, or maybe even a Panacur trewatment depending on what is found will likely save your snakes life if you take action pronto! I have seen this medication work like magic in the past with on-going
regurgitations.

best of luck, I hope the snake pulls through.

cheers, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"it could never digest because of your temperature being too cool, and/or the meals too large to be digested within those given temps. This can also happen from the water being fouled as well."

I only give them purified water, this guy has never regurged or defecated in it and his water bowl is brand new, so that part should be fine.

Ambient temperature is 80-85 during the day, 70-75 at night. When it gets down in the 70's I've been giving him a light to make up for it (he doesn't spend any time over the UTH, and I had the same thought as you: that might make him too cool for digestion). This is also why I've gone all the way down to Hopper mice, and they've been thrown up just the same.

He spends all of his time in the cool side hide, and I just went and bought a temp. probe at PetSmart (his stick on temp. thing is on the glass obviously): right now it's 81 in there. He's not getting the light tonight.

Nonetheless I've made a vet appointment for tomorrow, and will bring your medication recommendation with me. If the Dr. says anything else, I'll wait on treatment until I've run it by you.

Okay, your end doesn't seem so bad, but the fact that you've only had it for such a short time and it has been regurgitating since acqwuisition tells me it has a problem that came with it from the previous owner. The vet should do a standard mouth/throat swab, and a fecal exam. Then diagnose from what the findings are. Flagyl (Metronidazole) is for amoeba and many different intestinal bacteria, and Panacur (Fenbendazole) is for parasitic worms. This can be given at the same time too if needed. I would actually do both anyway regardless not knowing anything about the animals past. It really needs to have those two things done at the vets for sure. A fecal exam, and throat swab.

Flagyl: 50mg/kg body weight orally, repeat in 10-14 days

Panacur: 100 mg/kg body weight, repeat in 10-14 days

Keep in mind though, no food until at least 10 or more days AFTER the last treatment. Unless the snake is nothing but skin and bones, this is not a problem whatsoever with going without food for this short length of time, especially since food will kill it that much quicker anyway.

Purified or drinking water is fine, but definitely avoid distilled water at all costs. This will kill snakes.

best of luck, and keep us posted on how the snake does.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

seems like you're right on the money as usual, doug.

I do have a question about the distilled water killing snakes though. Obviously i've never given it to any of mine or i'd have a dead snake, but what about distilled kills them? (maybe negatively impacts thier sodium and/or potassium levels???) Have you seen this happen?

I ask because it's a bit of a rumor that distilled water is bad for people to drink, however i've drank nothing but distilled water for a few years and I'm fine. It's big in the fitness/bodybuilding community because we try to watch the sodium intake. I'm able to get proper electrolytes from other sources though and a snake really can't.

Aaron, you are bringing back memories!!! Lol. I used to drink tons of it during the last three and a half days prior to a show when all sodium was cut. However, I am a little "off" so not sure about the negative impact. .

Joe

Snakes shouldn't be given distilled water since the decreased pH of the water will result in minerals being removed from the animal's bones to achieve a physiological buffering.

Humans constantly are drinking and eating and supplying minerals to their system, although they'd be better off with spring water or even purified non chlorinated tap water.

Yes, that is pretty much the deal there. Humans can consume all sorts of other things to make up for what distilled water doesn't contain. Distilled water is basically water with nothing else in it at all, and is pure H2O. That means that there are ZERO essential dissolved salts and minerals. This is a type of water that a wild animal would never be exposed to. All water found in nature has some salt and minerals dissolved in it, and this is very important for something called osmotic regulation. Suffice it to say that this term means how water passes into and out of cells and is regulated, in part, by the dissolved solids in the water. Water routinely passes in and out of cells, which is how the body regulates almost all bodily functions. So, dissolved minerals and salts are very important for normal physiological functions. Distilled water, with no dissolved salts and minerals, cannot support those normal bodily functions. As the other poster replied to Joe, prolonged consumption by a herp will make these cruciual minerals to be drawn out of the bones of the animal for the tissue cells to utilize. I recall reading somewhere that the cells can actually swell to the point of rupturing with amphibians because the minerals regulate the absorbtion, and without them the cells will simply continue absorbing without this very necessary regulation.

I'm sure it would take a bit of time, and more than a few drinks of Distilled water to start affecting the animals cells, but it would eventually have a very negative impact on herps body. I'bve heard of salamanders swelling up like ballons because of it too.

Distilled water being demineralized, contains more hydrogen and is considered an acid, with a pH of less than 7.0. Any time a human or animal consumes or, in the case of an amphibian, is soaked in distilled water, the body pulls minerals from teeth (if they have them) and bones to produce bicarbonate to neutralize the acid. This can prove very dangerous over time. Another problem with distilled water is that acidic liquids will result in the production of more free-radicals, which are molecules that can increase the risk for cancer. There are people who feel that distilled water is safe and healthful to drink, but the mainstream medical community discourages the consumption of distilled water. Likewise, providing pet herps with distilled water is not recommended. Because amphibians respire through their skin and also absorb water through the skin, distilled water can be particularly dangerous to them.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Good stuff Doug. Yeah, I rarely drank the stuff and only for three days prior to competing. I did not know this stuff about drinking it though and glad you guys posted the info. I have read about people using the water from dehumidifiers to water plants and the water kills them . Probably something similar happens.

Joe

Sure man, that's also very understandable why you and many others drink it just prior to competing too...

I don't claim to know all the details involved with this at all, just the very basics, but I will just keep using my normal city tap water that is left out a few days for the chlorine to fully dissipate..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You were totally correct: His fecal exam revealed a "high level of parasites," and he was given Metronidazole as you predicted (with another in 2 weeks).

Don't know what this will cost in the end, but so far it's below the financial doomsday I was picturing.

Oddly enough, because of that I'm not as mad as I thought I'd be over a company selling a sick snake at the Expo. Should I consider this a potential risk that I have to accept any time an animal is purchased?

I'm really glad to hear that you brought the snake in to be seen as soon as possible....good going man!

Yeah, it's not a huge expense as you said, and really straight-forward and simple. a good 10-14 days after the second treatment, you could offer a very small meal for a few feedings, then gradually up the size increments of the prey once you are certain the snake's gut is back to processing normally again.

Well, if a snake isn't outwardly looking very thin, it can be very difficult to tell anything is wrong internally by just looking at a snake at a show, but that is why knowing very trusted, dependable sources is so important in this hobby. If you go up to just anyone's table sight-unseen, and don't know they are a very trustworthy source, it can be more of a coin toss sometimes. For more experienced keepers, you can get a good feel by looking at the overall body tone of all the snakes a person have on the table. But the bottom line is there can always be some element of risk when you take on a new snake. Also, if you have any other reptiles, I would HIGHLY recommend that you quarantine the snake far away from the others for at least 2 months or so until you see absolutely ALL is well. I would also make a very close inspection for mites too by looking under the scale edges, around the clear ocular eye lens (brille), and under the throat scales for very tiny black dots (mites). This can overtake an entire collection in no time, not to mention be extremely harmful to the snake they are on.

anyway, that's awesome that your Andean got some swift treatment. Just keep to the steps to the letter, and things should get right on track in a while........

BTW, very glad I could help out!

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Glad to hear the news. I am sure it has been mentioned , but don't forget to completely clean the cage now and several times during treatment. Water bowls and cage hides, change bedding ect. ....... Hope the critter makes a full recovery, which it probably will. Good job Douglas.

Joe

Every once in a while I read a thread which offers really good husbandry advice. This is one of those times. Thank you, Doug Mong.

I'm sure your snake will get well soon.

If you purchase additional animals in the future, be sure to get them from a reputable source. This forum has lots of experienced hobbyists who can be trusted to supply you with not only healthy animals, but top of the line specimens.

listen to doug!

I too agree with Doug and have had great success with both of those meds myself. I just want to add that this could also be caused by an obstruction of some sort. Maybe ingested bedding oe something. Probably parasites or something but worth a check as well.

Joe