Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I haven't been in the for over 14 years give or take. I've been look over "current care sheets" what year did having a monitor lizard living in an enclosure with a two foot deep soil substrate become the best thing??

I can remember back in the day it was aspen or cypress bedding or even news paper was reccomended.

Its just interesting to see this change so much from so of the web posts I've read Its amazing to see the changes of husbandry and the ideology of hobbyists today.

It started in 1991, we I started with varanids. With Ackies, then when used on other species, it worked so well it was rediculus. Within five years, we produced 18 species in one year, all using deep substrate and high heat options. And feeding whole foods.

I could explain exactly how it occurred with ackies. Whats funny is no one asks. Cheers

What 18 species did you produce that year?

I too am interested in knowing what 18 species that were produced.

Cheers,
Chad

I sorry bob, why don't you list them.
You already know that I would not lift a pencil for you. And its that way because of you. Cheers

Now that you have read that, you are always confrontational with me or with what I say. You do not come to help or clarify, or add to. You only come to be "you"(confrontational)

If you wanted to question my reply to the post, you could question whether the change in husbandry was attributed to me. That change in husbandry is the context of the thread.

Such things as deep substrate, High temps and a wide temp range(150F to 70F)(includes cool)(retes stacks, etc) Whole food items, Lites 24/7.

Those and a few more were combined by me to recieve the results I mentioned. Some were new, others a "add" in combination.

The elimination of hibernation, photoperiod and rain cycle could also be attributed to me.

Of course there was that old "heatum and feedum" THat Scott Salsted(vision cages) and I came up with at the bar in Orlando. THat saying is so very important with varanids.

As once they have the metabolism to feed and utilize food on a daily basis, they without question grow like weeds and reproduce like pez despensers. Of course, thats a somewhat backwards statement like me leading with the number of species. As it takes a bit more then heat, but that heat is the key and once they feed on a daily basis, your in the area of their normal active metabolism. Which allows and supports success.

Of course I am not an academic word person, so i do not take such things literally or as a rule, They surely have no need to feed everyday 365 days a year year after year, as there are times its not necessary, but the key is, the times "it is" necessary.

Whether I produced 16 or 21 species is not a concern, in fact, by current standards it may be more then I mentioned. At the time, there was no bushi and Whites monitors are now different then ackies, black tristis vs. Freckled, etc etc.

Again that is not the point of the thread, the point(context) of the thread is the change in husbandry and where it came from.

This is also a reason I do not care for you, you do not follow the context, but love to switch it to something to benefit your questionable agenda.

You also fail to address my agenda, which is now, and has always been about the monitors. Which is pretty much why we do not get along. YOu seem to be into monitors for social standing and position. I on the otherhand only work with them for the love of animals(not just monitors) and avoid the social aspect which includes publishing.

Yes, I am a bit backward and ackward with words, but then, that very well may be what allowed me to have the success I have had. I am so very happy with what was achieved here at goanna ranch with the support of my family and friends. I will take it anyday over what you have done. But then, I am odd that way.

So what can you add to the context of this thread.(the changing of husbandry protocal) Or can you only distract or confront. How about adding to. In my opinion, to add is valuable, to subtract from is worthless. Which is why I am not a fan of yours at this time.

There is a wonderful conversation to be had here, if only you were not so confrontational. If you would only use that mass on your shoulders and talk about the husbandry at the time, instead of ego positioning. Have a great day

How did it occur with Ackies then?
Was it accidental or..?

Actually is was a very funny story.

I had recently obtained some ackies from a Texas dealer/breeder who obtained them from europe. This was when they first started coming in.

I had them in the open cages with about two inches of substrate in a back room. The cages were like outdoor cages with heat lamps, but indoors. The ackies grew quickly and started laying eggs. They laid them under a board and they looked fertile but quickly died.

So I moved a pair into another room that was for pythons and set up a regular cage. In this room I could watch them. The first room only had a outdoor entrance. So I did not see them much.

I could see that the female wanted to dig, so I kept piling up dirt, I build a false wall in the front as the cage was front opening(snake cage) and built up the dirt as much as I can.

I was hoping i could use this cage as a nesting cage then take the females back into the other room.

Well she laid her eggs and I fed her a couple of times , then took her back to the other room. She stopped feeding, so I moved her back into the nesting cage. She then cycled again and laid a second clutch, I did put a male in with her.

I have a really long time friend thats a vet in europe and I called him and questioned him about her multiclutching. As Bernie Idenmuller had just published that if they lay more then two clutches they will die.

I repeated the move to the other room and she quit feeding again, so I moved her back, Then she cycled and laid again. I again called my Vet friend, and he said, OH oH with an accent, she is going to die. So again after feeding her I moved her back. Yes she stopped feeding again, so in to the nesting cage she went. Well she laid another and another and stopped at six clutches.

Then my vet friend came to Tucson and I showed him the female, He took one look at her and said, shes in great condition. And that was that.

So I applied that principle of a nesting cage to each of the four females I had and all responded the same way.

Then I did the unthinkable, I traded a adult female boelens python that I had raised up to that texas dealer for a group of V.tristis. That female boelens was then sold to Paul Miles and she produced eggs and hatchlings(she bred here before I shipped her off)(big mistake by me)

The Tristis responded the same way, so I applied it to Storrs, then gillens, then kimberlys, pils, etc etc etc as well to larger monitors, starting with argus, then the whole gouldi group, lacies, crocs, etc etc mertens, etc etc albigs and more.

And it worked.

Not to whine, but pretty much thats why folks like Bob there are not happy. That lucky guess and me listening to the animals instead of other varanid keepers, changed the landscape for varanids.

ALso unlike most of them folks, I not only obtained the animals and read the literature, some very good friends sent me everything they could, one was Dennis KIng(he visited here too)

I went to europe and the zoos and private breeders and spend lots and lots of time in the field looking at monitors and attempting to find key data, like temps and soils and depth etc.

I thought in my peabrain thats how it should be done. Unfortunately my work did not compliment those varanphiles of the time. I instead used the animals actual results and the animals I observed in the field to guide me. That made them mad.

The sad part was, some of those folks were very nice people, but I had to stay away from them as to not influence what I was doing. They had very strong beliefs that were not successful or of limited success, so I could not allow them to influence me with information that was not proven or poorly proven. And they felt they had to influence me. Hence the rift.

I already understood the responsibilities of doing something different and being successful. Its contrary to making friends.

So the wars began. To bad as only the animals suffer. I did not know the "Bobs" when I started as I was and still am a, snake guy.

I also was and still am a field herper first and formost, which again alienates me from that group. I believe animals in the field first, and people, including myself, way down the list. Maybe fiftith or something. have a great day

Thanks for the reply, sounded like the female left you in no doubt what she wanted. A snake cage helping varanids, who new!
I've only been in this hobby 2 years, so wasn't around in the dark ages of keeping and I am aware of the use of shallow substrates today. I guess no amount of time will totally rid this practice as long as pet shops and the internet are around.

I post a simple question just mentioning how deep subtrates are recommended now.

I did not ask why, I get the concept.

Just when as I have been out of the hobby for over a decade.

And my simple question turns into an excuse to hijack my thread so they can try to satisfy some warped grudge they may hold....

Thanks...

P.s. thanks for answering the question FR.

Agreed. Frank has helped me a lot over the years with mostly colubrids and I appreciate the help he's offered with great success. I don't know Frank personally but he's always willing to help people with their animals if they seriously care about the animals well being. His questioning of people commenting is more so to get people to use their own brain and realize their problem I think. Anyway, He's helped me numerous times and I thank him for that.

Thanks, and your right, I do try and allow people to think, afterall, each of us has to apply husbandry and that takes thinking, as none of our situations are the same.

To understand why your doing something is so very important, it makes the what your applying so much easier. Thanks again