Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well I lost a neonate today, the first one in years. I don't recall loosing another to not being able to get it to feed since I adopted my no scent on lizard method. This one just resisted any attempt to get it to feed or to keep down anything but the very smallest of meals. In the end I tried tubing feeding it, (which I've thought of going to anyway) but to no avail. I think the repeated stress of minuscule forced feedings was just too much for such a small creature.

Its not like I'm going to loose sleep over it but this is the side of the hobby I dislike. You bring these animals into the world and you feel accountable for them. It doesn't matter that my six month survival rate puts mother nature's to shame. I still feel like I failed the animal even though I suspect there was something to it that made it unfit.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sorry to hear about you losing one Tony. We ALL know your pain. Maybe the little guy/girl had some internal problems or something. I have lost one before and never could explain why. I have had great success with tube feeding the last two years. Again, don't lose sleep over it, sucks, but is going to happen now and then.

Joe

Hey Tony

Sorry to hear about that. We all hate to lose neonates but like Joe said, it happens to all of us and especially when you are dealing with a ssp so fragile and stubborn as temporalis.

Funny you should mention the no scenting or no lizard parts method. I too have basically adopted that approach for my hatchlings - they just get tails until they will come around and eat pinks or pink heads...and most of them do come around eventually!

I did this because I had several situations where nates would only take lizard or snake parts once they started on them and would never cross over. That was a real pain!

Dave
DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes

Yeah, if they never know what a lizard smells like they don't imprint on it as a preferred food and become more robust rodent feeders as a result. At least that's the theory.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I kinda think they are hard wired to eat lizards anyway. Of course, giving them lizards probably just makes them want nothing but lizards. Who knows. If you can get them to eat pinks or tails, and not have to eat lizards, then I think that is by far the best way to go.

Joe

Joe I don't have the actual data to show it but the over riding impression is that since I stopped using lizards or lizard scent to start them they do MUCH better. The only actual metrics I can provide is that I can now easily raise a neonate to breeding size in just 18 months where it used to take at least 30.

Its going to be a bit hard saying goodbye to these next spring. Temps are been one of my oldest long-term project but I want to move onto something else to keep it fresh.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony
I still try anything and everything to get the babies to eat. I think that live newborn pinks have always been the best way to get them started. Since I don't raise mice anymore I am forced to use frozen. Only a small percentage will start on these easily. It's a matter of letting them get hungry but not loosing weight. Then I go to scented{skink is always the best} then on to either pinky pump ,which I have gotten pretty good at or I use a mixture of egg,baby beef food and a whey protein with no added sugars or flavor. If they get fat enough and still wont eat I hibernate them and usually they do well in the spring. I have used tails with mixed results. Sometimes no matter what you do they still die. A note with pinking pumping. You can kill them easily if you try to give them too much at one time. Better to do it more often.
I am raising a couple babies of easterns from my anerythristic island milk.They refused pinks for a couple months.I scented the pinks with a frozen piece of worm snake and they attacked it instantly.

Carl, having bred numerous LTT myself I know what you mean. They LOVE worm snakes. I actually used to catch gravid ringnecks and let them lay their eggs, which I would then hatch, and let the adults go. My dad's wife cannot stand snakes and has a billion ringnecks in their backyard. The baby ringnecks are eagerly attacked as well. Bottom line is LTT hatchlings love baby snakes.
I have found northeasten getula, LTT, and GB's to be the toughest so far. Of course, I have yet to deal with hatchling coastals!!!

Joe

Hi Joe
I think that the eastern milk babies are looking for baby garter snakes primarily or really any other baby snake. It's just that in most of the easterns range garter snakes are the most common snake. I remember reading a long time ago about ringnecks being potentially toxic to other snakes and have avoided them. I guess that has proved to be false. As far as temporalis, in all the times I've looked for snakes on the coastal plain I have seen one garter snake in N.J. and one in Worcester county. So the coastal milks have adapted to lizards which are common if the habitat is still supporting milks.I tried the scent of a baby racer this year and no milk would touch it. An interesting part of the picture is that there are no wormsnakes on the island for easterns to eat yet the babies took them right away.I am curious if baby easterns would go for a newborn vole.I know that a tough adult eastern that doesn't want mice will jump at mice with shrew scent. The problem is finding shrews.
I don't think that getting a baby temporalis that was started with scented pinks will be any less of a good feeder once they go for one with no scent. The problem with waiting too long is that they start to lose weight and when they do take food the digestive enzymes in their gut may be less able to digest a pink.

Carl, very interesting topic. I have actually caught some baby wild deer mice (babies that fell off of the mothers back when she ran) and baby LTT DID jump right on them. Guess it is just the scent of domestic mice that they don't like. The ringneck thing has always puzzled me becuase I have caught numerous LTT and eastern kings that have regurgitated ringnecks. Not sure why some folks dont' think they eat them. As stated, I used to use the babies to feed my hatching LTT. In southern MD I find tons of worm snakes in temporalis habitat. I have not found any temps there, however I know of quite a few found where I am looking. Still, I bet they prefer lizards as the ones in locations where worm snakes are not found do as well. I would bet they would take a tiny ground skink or five lined over about anything, but then again I would not know as the temps have eluded my for quite a while. LOL. When it comes to finding them, sir you are the man. I am now in KS, so I will only be able to continue my search on my visits to MD. If you are ever out this way give me a shout. Peace.

Joe

Couple of pics of sure thing hatchling food!!!

Joe

I recently learned that wormsnakes are full of parasites. So I have one that is frozen and use only a small piece of skin on the pinky. I have never used a ringneck for food and don't know if they contain parasites. Their food is primarily salamanders but salamanders probably have parasites. In the wild the snakes may handle the parasites better.Maybe someone who knows could talk about this.This feeding issue is a problem with all of the smaller milks as their babies need and want lizards or snakes.
I would love someday to look for reds in Kansas. They have to be easier to find than temporalis. There's no such thing as a rock to look under on the coastal plain and the coastal milk habitat gets smaller every year.

hahaha. I hear ya on the rock and temporalis issue!! I cannot wait until spring, as I hear KS is one of the best herping spots known. ( pm me if you come out this way ). As far as the parasites go, yeah I bet both are loaded with them. I only have used either frozen pieces from adults or captive hatched babies to get the stubborn ones feeding. Don't think feeding a parasite loaded adult would be good for a captive animal.

Joe

ON the subject of using snake scent. I haven't needed to do this with temps but I do with eastern kings. I routinely find road killed northern browns on our island. If they aren't to mangled I put them in the freezer and use ~ 1" sections for slow starting easterns. One or two meals of these seems to prime the pump and they take off on pretty much anything you wave in there face.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, are you talking about LTT or EK's? I have tried to hold out on eastern kings before and they almost died. I absolutely had to either scent or use frozen thawed snake to get them going. Talk about being hard wired for a certain prey as hatchlings!

Joe