Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just bought a savie about two weeks ago. When I got him he was quite skinny but I didn't make a big deal of it. I figured that I could just feed him a bit to fatten him up. I've been feeding him crickets which he eats with no problem but when I tried to give him meal worms he wouldn't touch them. I recently tried to give him some wax worms to help fatten him up but he won't touch those either, any suggestions?

wrong worms.

Good old fashion Night Crawlers...

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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I know the worms need to be kept refrigerated, does it matter if they're served cold? Or do they need to at least be room temp before he'll eat them?

your monitor will do far better with mice. pinkies to start if a neonate, then work up. Nothing wrong with worms, you would just need to feed lots and lots and lots to allow decent growth. Best wishes

Night crawlers are very good for them, along with the mice of course.

The moisture content, Calcium/Phosphorus ratio is good, and Boscs "love" (for lack of better wording) slamming them.

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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

Hows it going?

THeres nothing against worms of any kind, its all about simple application. In practice, varanids "do" better when rodents are the base of the diet. Remember, I never ever said, to only feed rodents.

I have without question tested RODENTS ONLY on several species and recieved superior results. But that is not what I recomend. Other prey items are fun to add to the diet every now and again.

I also have never gone by the nutritional make up of a prey item. I have always gone by HOW that prey item preformed in practice. As that is the most accurate means of judging a food item. In other words, judging food items by makeup is academic when compared to judging based on application.

I do not understand the concept of A or Z, that is, all this or all that. THat is not in my makeup. I couldn't do that if I tried. So I say, a BASE, which means, mostly or a higher percentage of. Or maybe the part of the diet that is reliable. Cheers

simplified.....

Night Crawlers make excellent "treats" when building trust, or other forms of "rewards" rather than stuffing your animal full of mice over and over.

A couple of mice / chicks or other large items are great when FEEDING.

But when you want to entice them up out of the burrows, dangle a worm in front of them, works wonders.

Not sure why you would ignore nutritional analysis, because too many people out there feed CRAP to their monitors. (Cat food, dog food, "monitor bites" Etc...)

Bottom line, worms are good food. and at the risk of redundancy, Boscs have a taste for them that's undeniable.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

I think you missed the point.

About nutritional makeup. That could be important IF we knew the actual NUTRITIONAL needs of a monitor, and in context to performance needs.

The point here is, there is no data that tell us what these animals REQUIRE. Again in context, successful animals, that is growing and reproducing. So to say, a worm has this or that, is relatively meaningless, no worms OR mice are not donuts. They are both whole prey items and that is GOOD.

I stated, I have tested many food items through many many generations of many species. Therefore, I do not need to read something to understand what works at a high level.

For an example, after you raised up your Savs to old age, then did it again, only will a mouse diet and they grew better, faster, and out produced the savs raised on worms, You would have to make a comparison. To be accurate, its not about the value of the prey item, there is no much more to it. Like the mass of the prey item and the volume consumed. At some point, will you feed off pound of worms a day, EVERYDAY?

Then I ask, how many folks out there have access to pounds of worms, compared to pounds of rodents. With rodents, you can start with mice, move up to rats then to rabbits is necessary. All commerically available.

About others feeding crap to their monitors, that is out of context to OUR conversation. I am talking about successfully testes food items.

ABout worms, never said anything was wrong with them did I, so what are you going on about? About stuffing mice, that statement, is silly, prejudiced and out of line with this conversation. That sounded like some made up daydream in your head, or more accurately, something to sway others thoughts thru over dramatization.

Lastly about Savs liking worms, a healthy Sav likes all manner of prey items. So that could be said about any number of differ prey items. When healthy, they like to eat. They like to eat and eat a lot.

Best wishes

Derp....

I'm not the one writing full page posts for really no reason.

Have you nothing better to do with your time?

For you it's always about breeding performance this, breeding performance that.

Did the O.P. ever indicate a desire to breed?

You need to get it in your head that 99% of the people who buy a monitor (especially the inexpensive imports) ONLY wish to keep their new pet well fed, well kept and have it live a little longer than a year or two.

When people ask breeding questions, I step aside and read.

But damn it, when someone asks about worms, I will answer the same every time.

Night Crawlers are better and bigger than minuscule insect larvae that are labeled as "worms"

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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

As a biological unit, the minimum requirement is the physical ability to reproduce. Period.

In the case of monitors, anything less then the normal ability to reproduce, cannot be considered healthy. Period, If you kept your dog in conditions that would be LESS then the physical ability to reproduce, or your cat, or horse, you would be arrested for negleck.

But because reptiles can EXSIST below that level, YOU or many others think its right. Sir, I challange you to prove that keeping any animal below its physical ability to reproduce is RIGHT.

You and others argue that because you LACK the ability to support the health necessary to reproduce. To reproduce is normal to the animals, to not reproduce is NOT NORMAL.

In biology, supporting conditions are judged by the level of recruitment. Healthy individuals or populations are judged by LEVEL of recruitment. That is FACT.

Reptile pet keepers, may indeed judge healthy by the animal having a heartbeat. But that is wrong. Those are the folks that need some education. Period.

Whether you choose to hatch eggs or not is up to the keeper, but to support keeping animals BELOW the ability to naturally and normally reproduce is WRONG.

And what I write here and particularly how much or how often is very silly of you, as your posts are right by mine, so indeed I could ask you the same questions. Best wishes

Of husbandry issue. Sure, FR goes on and on but usually simply because he's seeing someone expressing( whether they know it or not...) a need for more effective infomation and perhaps a bigger perspective in regards to keeping these lizards in captivity. These aren't bearded dragons or corn snakes, and while varanid husbandry certainly contains applicable elements suitible for those animals as well, it tends to be more involved than most other forms of reptile keeping due to the nature of these beasties. So, good on ya, there Frank! Keep on sloggin through the mire! For the sake of the scaly children in need!
Guy

"And what I write here and particularly how much or how often is very silly of you, as your posts are right by mine, so indeed I could ask you the same questions. Best wishes"

That's easy sir, You can't even agree about the worms without making something of it.

You said it in your posts, that worms are whole prey...

so what is the point in droning on past that? unless your own insecurities mandate that you have the last word??

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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

So you want to make it about me and you, thats a common approach due to lack of interest or knowledge on the subject, the subject is monitors.

I said, earthworms are Ok, they are just not practical as the monitor grows, they are like you eating five peanuts. Not many folks will feed enough to actually help(nutritionally)

Then we dicussed degrees of health with monitors, like if its a good thing, to keep them so UNHEALTHY that they cannot phyicially reproduce. Sir you completely avoided all discussion about that subject, why?.

You do understand, this forum is about monitors, and there can be lots of conversation on whether or not its right to keep monitors physically incapable of a full life. Why do you avoid that?

Where you and others go all goofy is, you think its an arguement that can be won BETWEEN YOU AND I. That is naive. Its about you and I bringing up valid points in discussion. These points, are read by others and hopefully find something of use. That use is to help with the captive care of their animals.

Right or wrong, will be reflected with the result of what we apply to our captive monitors. At this point, you are very handicapped. You are doing a great job with a couple of Savs. I have raised generation upon generation of many many species, from the smallest to the very large. So that gives me an very real advantage, but you sir, COULD have valid concerns. Those points or concerns are of value to this forum, if you carry on a real discussion. So please, do that.

The truth is, these forums are for us to have meaningful conversations about the captive care of monitors. I am suppose to question something, then you are suppose to support your opinion/view etc. Or visa versa. We then bring up supporting EXPERIENCE, written material, heresay, or rumor. Of course, actual experience trumps the rest. Its not about whos right, or wrong, its about what we bring to the discussion.

You sir, by making it about me, or the last word, makes it about YOU. Your making it personal. I made it about monitors. Every question I asked, was about monitors. Monitors are the subject of this forum. And yes, keeping and breeding and observing them both in nature and captivity, gives me a whole bag of last words. So don't expect otherwise.

You say, your interested in helping STOP the slaugther(husbandry related deaths) of thousands of Savs through poor captive care. Yet, you do not address the points I made about THE CARE OF MONITORS. More importantly, what should be considered normal.

Something so basic as what is a healthy monitor. Don't you think if people understand that if animals cannot physically reach levels of health to allow reproduction, is because of poor care, If they understood that, they may indeed do something about it. Most think keeping them poorly(under active) is normal. You do understand, thats what killed your other Sav. right?

On the otherhand, if people think its ok to keep a animal in(low metabolic rates) suspended activity its whole life and have to face all the problems of obesity and liver disease and such, they may attempt to learn what normal care is. Our conversations can bring up these points.

You treat these forums as a place to fight, when in fact, they are indeed a place to carry on discussions and help improve care. You seem to want or need to be RIGHT, when in fact, what we are discussing is applied material, so what we apply to our captives, may RESULT IN RIGHT. You and others get mad at ME, because you think I need to be right, when in fact I have been LUCKY enough to recieve a whole lot of right with my animals. That sir, is what your arguing against.

So again I ask, keep it about animals and if you do have something important to say, it really could be the last word. My bet is, all of us need to learn a whole lot more before there are last words. So in the meantime, how about words about monitors. Best wishes to you and your animals

I would say that under current guidelines for care, that with the metabolism bump relative to basking temp, if rodents aren't the staple item Savannah's would remain too lean to reproduce. Increased metabolism comes w a corresponding increase in activity and the calories just aren't there for insectivore alone. It's possible but not as feasible. My Savannah's feed on more than 6 whole food sources and another 6 treated raw prepared foods. Variety is a great stimulant.

There's another heat related topic that I've wanted to bring up relating to a possible explanation for the necessity of a 140 basking site. But the theory supports slight lower basking temp around 130 for Savannahs. Try to get to that later. Didn't want to bring it up in this thread since its already been beaten to death.

Matt Schubarth

Hi Matt, thanks for the response.

And please add to this and more. hahahahahahaha

The thing about temps is, they do not have to use them.

I do not think basking lite temps relate to natural sunlite temps. A little, just not exactly.

Its common for hot spots in nature to be up to 135F or so, in all areas where monitors live and here for that matter.

The difference is amount of area heated, in nature the sun heats huge areas therefore there is more usable heat.

With a litebulb or two, its only a small area, therefore the usable temps are restricted. So I think to make litebulb heat usable, it must be a little hotter.

What I did was try to equal results, not temps. I have lots of outdoor cages and observed how monitors worked in those conditions, then increased temps indoors until the results were equal. So thats where 150F basking spot came from. It was not meant to relate to outdoor real temps, only the results were.

I hope you understand, its a odd concept. The key is, the animals do not have to use it, just like in nature, they use what they want when they want.

Also its not species specific, they all use a range and the exact temps are based on need.

Most monitors worked fine with good basking spots of 130F, I do feel that 135F is far and away the best one temp. But commonly see monitors pick higher.

Lastly, its also based on mass, smaller mass individuals, can use hotter temps, larger animals lower. Its all about the ability to cool down. Cheers

Back in my Tucson days where some guy took me outside with a thermo-gun, whereupon we noticed some smallish local lizard basking on a large boulder..its was of average warm little lizard speed and acuteness(ie keeping a sharp eye on the monkeys, with one foot on the gas....) After doing the old point and shoot with the T-gun, I was rather astounded to discover the little fella(the lizard that is...)was basking on a spot where the base temp was 186 degrees F!! And in full sun to boot! The lizard was just hanging and jiggin from the monkeys getting too close in attempts to dispell their obvious disbelief!! After that day i bumped the basking temps on my rough necks upto 170F (from 130-140F)There was a considerable shift in their activity levels,ultimately leading to their rather regular production of eggs. Of course they had a large cage with a considerable thermocline(down to about 70F or so)but they used the high temp site multiple times daily with no visible adverse effects.
Guy

After all the previous ballyhoo i kinda expected at least someone would mention them.....oh.,.right!
He he he..
Guy

This is the truth, if there was crayfish in the freezer, it would not and I repeat not be going to be fed to the monitor. If you know what I am saying.

You would think by looks alone that humans would perfer mice over crayfish, but thats another story. Ok somebody stop me now.

With the right sauce most anything can be pallettable.... maybe a nice mousie ettuffee(sp?) Rat tar tar? My personal favorite, pinkie pudding! Then there's always fuzzie frittatas....but i tend to avoid fried foods for the most part, but then again, who can resist a good old fashioned cornrat when yer at the fair? Not me! Thats for sure! Though corndads might well be pretty dang tasty too! Heck! Feed 'em both! Why not?
Guy

Corndads, Oh my god, you could be famous, that sounds awsome. Crawdad tails on a stick, dipped in corn batter, oh my god.

It snowed like crazy yesterday. dang

Well...i think cornrats would be a better sell in that you can eat the stick(deep-fried rat tail, and all) but you have a point...corndads would be pretty dang tasty to be sure. If only i wasnt such a lazy bastard. Anyone who wants to use the idea, just kick me down 10% and we'll call it good.
I heard that the big storm had reached yer part of the world...how deep was it? Did the saguaro get a new white hat for the day? Hope the critters were tucked away in their warm indoor beds...just what ya need, lacicles! Now there's good sounding treat resplendent with summer refreshment!
Guy