Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Which species to go with. Ever since my buddy picked up one of those savana tegus at a reptile expo in the city i ve wanted one of my own. So ive been looking at the larger models and have narrowed it down to two different types. What i really want is one that will grow into a dog tame dragon/best friend. I just bought a 60 gal tank(i scored cause it even came with a big hot rock! But i gotta make a top for it) for whichever one i finally choose. I found a place on the web that has young ones(2&1/2-3') of both types that the guy assured were all CB/CH/CB, feeding well, and parasite free. He told me either type will be a little skittish at first but tame down in a matter of weeks with multiple handling sessions a day. So which makes the coolest pet once they get big? The blue tailed or the tri-colored? The dude at the store said the tri colored is a bit more assertive and 40 bucks more(are they really so rare?)but they are awesome looking lizards..the blue tailed kinda looks like those mangrove monitors but a bit fancier with the blue tail. If i got both would they breed? Would i need a bigger tank or will the 60 gal work for both if they're still small like that? I read here that catfood isnt good for them, but what if i give them like Iam's or science diet? Wouldnt that be ok? I want to go look at them but the only address they have is the email address so i just have to take their word for it, but they seem trustworthy in their emails... I heard that the best way to tame them if they're still not tame within a week or so(i tamed both my blue tongue skinks in six days!)is to turn of the lights off for a couple days because they feel more secure in the cool darkness, and are then easier to hold. Is that true? I really want to get it tame as soon as possible then get into captive breeding since these are CB/CH/CB already. Any helpful hints for an eager beginner? Thanks!

Sorry .....sorry.....really really sorry..but its been such a dreadfully dull night........i know its wrong to post such sorry attempts at varanid humor but as monitor keepers its our responsibility to raise the bar in the realm of lizard comedy. Lizard humor is the highest form of intellect...well...nearly..sorta..maybe....y'know what i mean.......?
Sorry....he he he
Guy

I have not kept a monitor since the late 1970's and I have no intention of keeping one again, even though I find them to be fascinating reptiles. (For what it is worth, it was an exanthematicus from a dealer in African herps. It lasted about 4 months with my substandard husbandry.) Still, I read this forum because I have learned a lot from it,some of which is applicable to the herp species I do now successfully keep and breed.

That being said, I ask you this question. What was your purpose in writing this obviously sarcastic diatribe? To me, it came off as condescending. You must be a pretty smart Guy.

Hi, if you read the OP`s first reply you`ll see he clearly stated he was joking (flippant)), NOT condescending or sarcastic.
In fact what he said was pretty much what actually happens in the overwhelming majority of cases. (I`m being serious, VERY serious)...

Yeah, I get all that; OP was trying to be funny. I realize there are a lot of idiots who want to keep savannas, niles, etc. because they get large, are inexpensive and the few that actually survive a year can be impressive. Same type of idiots who keep burms in 20 gallon tanks with rocks holding down the lids. Just do not see where making fun of these folks accomplishes anything. I realize you guys deal with these fools all the time.

Here is a thought to consider. What percentage of savanna monitors sold in this country do you think actually survive one year?

Yes.... its true i was merely joking about some, with no intention of poking fun at savanah owners. They are no less a monitor than any other varanus species to be sure. Ok..it was a bit of a jab at those who come to the forum with little grasp as to the nature of the answers they seek and yet already have constructed themselves in line of their own desires. Certainly, we all succumb to this,to varying degrees, myself included. Who woundn't want a six foot tame yuwouni? But, as the second of my posts stated, it was simply an attempt at bringing some levity to an otherwise properly maintained forum. That said, anyone know any good monitor jokes? I'm trying to work up new material for my upcoming national tour of reptile shops...
As for me being smart....well...i've fooled some into thinking so, proved it to others, and driven the thought from the minds of others still...intelligence lays in how much more new stuff you can learn rather than how seriously you take what you think you already know.....i think.....
Guy
one more thing......
Hognose snakes?! Really? Hognose snakes?

Hognose snakes are cool, but I have not even seen one for 10 years. Not sure where his comment came from. I work with black-headed pythons and eastern indigos. Usually, I learn from your posts and several others on this forum. It is all good. I have applied many "monitor ideas" to my herps. Heavy feeding, temperature choices, access to high temps. My snakes reach adult size much more quickly. Maybe someday I will even pick up a pair of ackies.

Blackheaded pythons, hmmmmmmmm did you know that the method of temp choices and allowing the animals to make their own choices, was used on Blackheaded pythons FIRST, well I actually developed it with other SNAKES well before BHP's. But It did support the worlds third, maybe second captive breeding. And many many many more highly successful reproductive events.

It was a great story, started with compromise snakes and turned them into giant egg laying machines. Cheers

Did not know that. I did see that Dave and Tracy Barker cited your early bhp clutches in Pythons of the World. I have a gravid female bhp this morning who is basking at > 95 degrees. Lying on her back! I picked my idea for her nest box from the Monitor Forum. Stuff from different forums is applicable to many different species. The more I learn, the less I realize I know.

Thats funny, as nesting with monitors came from nesting Blackheadeds and Womas.

I luckily figured out that Blackheadeds held their eggs until the eggs died, unless they had suitable nesting. Which led to hatching methods.

At the time folks thought their eggs were hard to hatch. So they attempted all manner of incubation methods. And of course I said, they are easy to hatch.

When nesting was applied to monitors, it was far more critical then with snakes. Afterall, most snake cages are little more then a burrow the snake gets trapped in.

Anyway, nesting was something I developed with colubrids. With colubrids, good nesting, or real nesting, was not madatory, but without question improved the success and lives of the animals.

Anyway, please allow aspididites to close the door, that is, plug up all lite. They want to nest in darkness. I could always tell when they laid, as they would plug the hole to the nesting area with sphagnum moss. Any hole, crack or crevice that lite could come in was plugged. Best wishes

There you go again bragging/makin stuff up to shield your own personal insecurities....next thing you'll be saying you had seven specie multi-genera colubrid hybrids back in what? Lets say the seventies...... you know who really had the first bhp breeding? I ll tell y'all...either god or steve irwin
ROFLMAO
Just f*%&?:*ng witcha there Frank! Yer awesome! Arrogant? Heck no! Most folks just dont get HOW modest you really are!
Yer pal, guy

I for one would love to hear any information you are willing to share about early breeding of bhp's. I know you were one of the first to breed them in US.

He's the one to talk to, be certan.

I think Dallas had the first true captive breeding. There was one in Oz. but from the information provided, it seemed like a wild caught gravid female. ALso, it was more like me finding a gophersnake in my yard and putting it in one of my outdoor enclosures and saying that is captive breeding. So I do question that. It was done outdoors with recently captured adults in any case.

Never the less, I had recieved three blackheaded pythons that were in captivity and they had not fed once, in a year and a half. So that fella gave them to a friend of mine that worked for me. We had an apartment in phoenix. They sat there for months doing nothing, so I asked if I could try.

They said yes, and off to the races I went. I did my old, let the animals choose. I kept them in six food long cages(all were about 4 feet long) and made my trash pile on one end, Retes boards and black plastic piled up and covered.

Once I noticed black heads sticking out, I would place a rat by the hole, and all fed like demons. The first female laid at about 6 feet, and all hatched, but quickly grew to over ten and laid huge clutches of over twenty eggs.

I ended up raising up three females to over 10 feet. Theres a pic in a early RM issue with a bunch of herpers and holding one female, it was the size of a burm. And some hatchlings. The herpers were here for a IHS meeting. That was the last time I let herpers visit, as someone stole some eggs during that visit.

I was lucky enough to find a woma nest in nature. It was in W.A. there were sheds and hatched eggs in front of hole that went under some granite boulders. It was very similar to the area I watch here, so I had strong idea how reptiles used it. Best of luck with that female, I would love to see pics. Thanks

Humor may bestow upon us! For what started as the whimsy of a bored guy into lizards and the outrage of another of said nature grew forth into a greater understanding for not only the two initially engaged but others drawn to the issues at hand by its very essence. Whereupon the thread took life of its own and ventured to wholly unexpected places where the participants gained ever more broadening awareness and appreciation of each others experience and, yes, might i even say, very existence! This is what forums are about! Positive exchange of ideas, approaches, techniques,successes, and yes, failures as well, but most of all, what we as individuals have learned from all of those that we might share with others here thus bettering the existence of those we hold captive. So yer all welcome for the lame joke! And to you snake lovers, get a room and keep on topic, this is the monitor forum not some "gosh arent those funny looking aussie gopher snakes with the black head scales swell" forum. He he he he.....
Guy

Frank,(andi really hate to state what i m about to say..) but from what i ve gleaned from the sage we call the web(pay no attention to the T4 behind the curtain) the approach all the real bhp breeders(you know they've come up with a hypo bhp! Go figure! Like, so 90's...gag me with a furmont!) Employ is very slow growth for aspidites breeding stock. Is there anything to this? Are bhp'sthe one snake that does go it slow in nature so you find all sorts of mid sized juvies all over the bilabong or is it just a clever ploy to keep the F2 customers from attaining a faster generational turnover thereby keeping the price up for another couple years? I've noticed a similar approach with some.of the locality specific red tailed boas, i mean monitors(Varanus constrictor constrictor) as well. Wazzup wik all this? It's just all so confusing....i mean, sure, i m turning 50 this year..maybe my mind can no longer keep pace with all this innovation..slow growth fast growth slow then fastthen slow for a bit then kinda fast for 47 days then..its all too much!
Guy.....i think....

Ouch ouch ouch ouch ouchie ouch ouch
but then we all just glorified cage cleaners with our bucket o'chicken for lunch
(Thats an inside joke, rather than some racist slam on chicken eating mangrove keepers.....or anyone wanting that tree monitor named after Irwin's wife..)

Yes, that is what these forums are about. You can take what you need (knowledge unavailable anywhere else) and leave the rest behind (jealousies, egos and all that stuff). Simple truths that I have come to accept. Dispelling myths. Myth - power-feeding is bad for snakes. Truth - given the opportunity to secure heat, it is virtually impossible to feed too much to a growing snake.
I know nothing about bhp growth, other than my 2.2. I fed them heavily as juveniles and they were all around 5 ft. after less than one year. Fun to feed them DOR rat snakes. They go bananas. They are cool. They are fun. They exhibit behavior.

I used 100 to 110F basking for these fellas. I also provided deep substrate right under the basking lite. They often laid upside down IN THE SUBSTRATE.

Now heres something funny, I had many many BHPs and they were not fond of snakes, hahahahahahahahahaha got me. At first I attempted to get hatchlings to eat gophersnakes(use to be lots and lots here)(drought changed that) Ratsnakes, yes we have them, and no, they aren't going to be fed to BHPs hahahahahahahahaha

The dang things just ate rats, good thing too.

Would love to see pics of yours upside down, miss that. Best wishes

I ll never forget the minor coronary i had the first time i saw my female upsidedown! Freaked me the f&$@ out.... of my pair from d. Price the male.was about 3' and the female about 4' when i got em. Within 2 years the female was just over ten and the male around 8&1/2' They and my womas had insane feeding drives. The first time the male bhp tried to eat my thumb was both surprising and all in all pretty dang funny. Just outra the blue...no prior rodent handling on my part....just"Monkey, i'z gonna eats you now, so hold still...." needless to say, i got away....but it was touch and go for a minute or two as he was already 3&1/2' feet of pure serpentine power.... i did read somewhere the real trick with those guys is crayfish..and cornrats of course, in fish tanks with newspaper and a shoebox with a hole cut on the side, screen top, hot rock and a 25 watt uv bulb in a reflector on top. ...i just cant keep up with all this innovation...maybe i ll just switch over to Heterodon......
Guy

you know the dang answer, you saw it here, dang boy!

ok ok, I will babble on. We here, without question found BHP's to be amoung the fastest growing snakes. We had no problem having wonderful successful large fertile clutches in under 18 months. Same for Womas.

At the time, my great friends and Python breeders, the Barkers, had other experiences. they saw problems with young females. Again, I did not. Same snake and at times it was the exact same snake. So, any halfwit(me) can tell you, its not the snake, its the conditions.

They offered smallesh neodeshea cages often with solid doors so the cage was effectively a hide box. and their room controlled the temps. I of course was a rouge, I offered temp ranges and larger cages, etc.

They fed on a schedule, I fed when the snakes were hungry(all the time)

Let me say, the Barkers, are extremely intelligent and so dang good at what they do. But they kept the animals in a way that suited their entire opperation, not what was best for the animal. And while they are extremely good at what they do, it was not about that, it was simple approach. Different approach, different results.

As with all these reptiles, you cannot heat a tiny cage to the point necessary to asimilate large amounts of food. In nature, they can and do get any heat they want and MORE.

As you know, I have seen BHP's in nature, from east to west and north to south and observed litterally hundreds of them. And they are not afraid of heat. Found one crossing the road mid-day, just up the road from Sandfire(western black&white) and it was 100F out. Got me! lots of other stories about them as well.

Back to captivity, a friend told me that some folks think you have to feed them FISH, oh my, or they have problems. First off, fish would be a rare prey item in Oz. as these things are not raparian, they are xeric. Which means they normally live away from water and in Oz, that does mean away.

Anyway, keeping them in conditions that will not allow their NORMAL choices of conditions, IS NOT ABOUT THE ANIMALS, ITS ABOUT THE KEEPER. Then trying to mitigate that with such things as fish is, well, very human, and not about the snakes in the least.

So as you would say, we as hairless apes, wait your not hairless and neither am I, should have the grey matter to allow us to change to fit the animal, instead of forcing an animal to fit to US, those hairless ones(not you or I) say, rats will cause them to have problems, well if you add heat, it makes them lay tons of eggs and if thats a problem, then I agree.

And yes, I often wonder if this shoe box, recipe mentality is not an effort to limit offspring. If its accidental, then the purpose is still served. Limited potential.

See what you made me do, I going herping sir, no wait, I going to the bar and watch that young lady kiss some wicked arse. Best wishes

I had the pleasure of visiting the Barkers facility back in the mid 90's, when I was working a project near New Braunfels (I think). That was when they had an incredibly diverse collection, including GTP's, jungle carpets, bloods, balls, retics, olive pythons, a beautiful female BHP, group of nice black milks, etc. etc., etc. Tracy showed me her animals and when we were finished I was truly dizzy. Sensory overload; my brain could not process all I saw. I remember that beautiful female bhp, very expensive, maybe 5-7K. Possibly the snake you are referring to.
Hope I am fortunate to get some hatchlings. Man plans, god laughs.
Did your hatchlings feed readily?

Yes, and on rodents, but not tiny meals. they seem to go for large meals. Had a few start on lizards, but most on rodents.

Again, I am a fan of choices, the hatchlings did well when then could get to a nice moist area and still be dry, of course, keep that 95F hot spot. If your female is upside down, you have fertile eggs coming. If you support nesting, the eggs are easy to hatch. If you force the female to hold eggs, it will be very problematic.

Actually, they will only wrap up, living eggs. If they leave fertile eggs out, its because the embryos died. Best wishes and all the luck in the world.

It is a lot of fun to watch her; it has been a blast whatever happens. She basks for a while, upside down, sideways, right side up, etc. Then she crawls into her nest and rolls around in the sphagnum. I believe she is tamping down an area to lay her eggs. Too bad snakes do not exhibit any intelligent behavior!! LOL. I temp gunned the hot spot and it was 104. Cool part of cage is 73.
What a fun animal to observe.

Hey Frank, do female bhps only bask upside down while gravid? As i found mine like that a few times yet she never laid any eggs nor expired from repo failure...i d hate to think i got eggs from yet another pair of herps only to have the eggs eaten or never found(or found too late....) i really hate that...

Guy

You would be better off with a hognosed snake. Best wishes