Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Egg Bound Case, Experienced Opinions

I've had egg bound snakes in the past but this particular case is unique (to me).

I have a Snow ( 50% Het Hypo 25% Triple ) female that I attempted to breed last year for the first time.

She ovulated; I paired her up with a proven male, and prepared to have eggs laid (as usual) after the pre-lay shed.

However, no eggs were ever laid. She would not eat and over a period of time went thru another shed cycle… again, still with no eggs. (I kept an egg box prepared the entire time to ensure a proper nesting site was available if needed.)

I could still feel the eggs inside her, approximately 6, they seemed hard and some are irregular in shape.
But after the second shed, I offered her food and she ate! (a huge relief)

She continues to feed very aggressively, one of my best eaters.

Now the questions:
Do I try and breed her again this year in hopes that she passes the slugs?

Should I wait and just see if she passes them without being introduced to a male?
What other thoughts or experiences that you’ve had (both successes and failures)?

I don't want to visit a vet, because of my negative past experiences (those visits always turn out with a dead snake and a large vet bill). I would rather sell the snake as a great pet than to risk its life.
(It would be different if I had a local vet that was a herp specialist but I don't have that option.)

The reason I don’t want to explore the non-experienced vet option is…I had something similar happen a couple years ago. I was not aware of existing slugs (they were small) in another female I acquired. I bred her and she laid some good looking eggs and all of the old slugs:

Old slugs:

I ended up getting only one fertile egg out of the above.

This female had one large "new" slug stuck at her vent and long story short...she was killed by a local vet after a second round of anesthesia and she never recovered.

If you have any experience with this egg bound situation, I’d like to hear your experience.

Thanks,
Rusty

eggs stuck AT vent can be pushed out....
the one time I could NOT get it out...I went to a vet to have it cut out...he got it out and was quite happy with himself...I told him why I didn't want to rip it out, why she was now in shock and why she would die in a night....I was correct, he was a douchebag college educated moron....she was dead...

....so....breed it...if you sell her for a "pet" the other guy will breed her and lie anyways.....so you might as well make it educational for yourself anyways.,..learning is good....and you know her....

.....gross duds man.....never had them kind....
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........JY

Thanks for sharing your experience, finding a good reptile vet is a challenge.

In the short term, I think the big thing is that the female is eating again. To me that indicates that basic health is good. I somewhat agree on the vet issue but only in the case where you can't find a good one.

In the long term you have the question of whether the snake should be bred or not. I don't think this is easy to answer for two reasons. One, snakes don't need to be bred to ovulate and two in my experience fertilized eggs cause way fewer problems than slugs.

If the snake never ovulates again, it will probably be fine. If however its condition results in ovulation the old slugs could be passed with the new eggs or the new eggs could also impact causing further complications. I've seen and heard of both. Chances are best with fertilized eggs but even so further reproductive activity is most likely to compound the existing problem. Keep in mind that I've not seen this enough to draw solid conclusions. Given such a small sample set, one or two different outcomes could completely change the picture.

If you value the animal it would be best to find a vet with whom you can experience a better outcome or be prepared to put it down if further complications arise. I know a lot of people don't like to hear that but if you don't have access to a good vet or can't afford one, if it comes to it, the animal shouldn't be allowed to suffer.

As far as selling off the animal as a "pet" I wouldn't do so without full disclosure.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Thanks for your view points, I agree that fertile eggs have a much better chance of not causing issues.

I was actually looking for more examples of your specific experiences, I'm looking for details.

This happened back in 2001..had a snake with eggs stuck in her, bred it, it was fine...etc.

I was hoping with more data points, of other folks successes and failures, that I could quantify/estimate the risk of breeding.

Lastly, I'm not sure why you would mention anything about "full disclosure" regarding selling the snake as a pet...I just disclosed that very fact on a public forum...why would I try to keep that hidden???? (that's a rhetorical question)

Rusty, I think Tony's response pretty well covers it. The best summary is there's no predicting and I've always been struck by how many different problems and outcomes there are when dealing with eggbinding.

The eggs from a breeding this season could be in the same side as the duds, or the other side; if the same side, would they expel the duds ahead of them? And if the other side, could the good eggs still hang up where the body's perhaps constricted adjacent to the old eggs? I'm afraid there's no good bet on this one. If you had access to the vet I used when I had my collection, 5-10 years ago, I'd tell you to take her in and have him remove the old eggs. I'd say that because he removed a whole clutch from a big tricolor hondo and she laid successfully the next year. Bukt I understand it's hard to find a truly proficient reptile vet.

I'm sorry I don't have any meaningful data to share with you, to help you make your decision.

Good luck! Let's get together later this month for another road hunt, see if we can top last year's results.

Yeah there are so many variables that its hard to make general predictions beyond:

Long term situation not the best.

Follow on with infertile eggs likely bad

Follow on with fertile eggs slightly better.

I've had one snake expel eggs retained over a year. The rest required interventions. If my recollections are correct, that was only about two other animals. I am generally able to get the eggs passed as soon as I realize there is a problem. Waiting is not a good idea. Just my two cents but any snake that doesn't pass its whole clutch in 24 hours is having a problem, after 48 its serious and much past 72 your options start to disappear.

As an aside, my comment about full disclosure was just that, a comment. It was not intended to be am accusation.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yep, all good points...especially about the windows of time to intervene after egg laying.

Thanks again for your comments, I was hoping to see more feedback but I will take whatever I can get!

Oh, by the way, make sure you make a full disclosure of all your sources of income on your 2012 tax return! HA!

-Rusty

Thanks Terry, I understand what you're saying...I was just trying to learn from others that may have been down this road before.

The female eats like a pig and she's still growing...she's gota be over 850 grams...I'm going to do some research on a reptile vet maybe in Orlando.

I'm up for another road adventure for sure...I seriously doubt we could ever replicate our evening before, but I'm willing to try!

Let's shoot for sometime in April.

-Rusty

Hey Rusty,....is the vet the one we talked about a good while back? If so, good for you (AND the snake)..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Good to know you have a vet you can count on...that might be worth the drive if things don't work out.

I'll get that Vet information from you.

Thanks!