Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello folks...

I purchased a Bull Snake hatchling that is suppose to be het for Anery...but, in all my viewing of forums, breeder websites and such, I have not seen anyone posting pics or advertising Anerythristic Bull Snakes. Axanthic, yes, but not Anerythristic. Is Anery a genetic trait in Bull Snakes?
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan)P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus

Jonel Lopez has these.
www.spsnakes.com/snakes.htm

Also Jason Nelson I think.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thanks for the response Pyro.

I see that on Jonel Lopez website. I have also seen just today, where some people consider Anery and Axanthic one and the same...similarly to Albino and Amelaniistic being one and the same. I defintely need some clarity on this.
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus

Hi,the predominant ground color in bulls is yellow,so the correct term for a genetic mutation blocking the production of that pigment would be "axanthic".that being said,I have seen some examples from other people's breeding efforts,that would suggest that this genetic trait also works on the "red" pigment seen in some bulls,(Kingsville & "Crumbley" )however,I personally would still consider the correct term to be "axanthic".

Thank you RainShadow...

It's quite possible that those "examples from other people's breeding efforts" could very well be from breeders that are interchanging and/or confusing the Axanthic mutation for the Anerythristic mutation.
I recognize that they are 2 distinct genetic mutations....my question is do both actually exist in P.C.Sayi, or is Anerythristic being confused for Axanthic by some people, or vice versa?
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus

Both recognized forms of the mutation result in black & gray snakes regardless. I don't believe that there is a distinct,separate mutation that targets red pigment inhibition exclusively in bull snakes.

Thanks again for your response RainShadow.
Biology is what it is, and genetics are specific. Anerythristic is a lack of red and Axanthic is a lack of yellow. One cannot...or should I say "should not", knowingly, perpetrate Anery as Axanthic, or vice versa...although, undoubtedly some do it.
When you say both mutations produce black & gray animals...I can't see that ALWAYS being the case. I would think it would depend on the base or primary color of the line. If you took 2 deep red colored Kingsville bulls, both het for "true" Axanthicism, and produced offspring...being that yellow makes up just a small part of the phenotype of that animal, I can't see it being a completely washed black & gray. And vice versa for 2 Yellow Bulls het for Anerythrism. I am new to this genetic thing, so I am inquiring and asking more so than anything. Thanks for all input.
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus

i asked the same question in this forum exactly 4 months ago (Nov 4th)
"Axanthic vs. Anerythristic: revisited?"

so much of the pigment mutant naming seems to stem from best guesses, that there's no wonder that confusion abounds. the closest thing i've seen that might possibly be a true anerythristic or, dare i say, hypo-erythristic is jason nelson's yellow bulls.

but i think to answer your question (and mine), folks seem to be using axanthic and anerythristic interchangeably in bullsnakes.

matt

Just to start some more discussion. Here are a couple of quick shots of a miami county locale specific black and silver bull. What would call him LOL Another coloration that there is always some discussion on is T+ albino as versus extreme hypo.

Cherryville Farms

Yeah,I've had many discussions about that subject as well! (*lol*)Once something becomes entrenched in misconception,it can be quite difficult to ever get the majority of hobbyists to re-examine their beliefs. The term "hypo" becomes a catch-all,quick marketing term for a wide range of phenotypical deviations from "normal"...in regards to the axanthic vs. anerythristic contention,I would absolutely agree with the logic presented by Joey,but it may be that beneath the visual "layer" of surface "red" once the enzymes that are responsible for the underlying base color are blocked,the results are similar in outward appearance? Those "red" line axanthics may turn brownish,or darker grey as adults?(I don't know.)
-----
Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Thanks for all your input gentlemen!
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus

There are only axanthic bull snakes and combos of such, no anerythristic bulls.

Axanthic = lack of yellow
Anerythristic = lack of red
Amelanistic = lack of black
-----
Pituophis c. annectans
Senticolis t. intermedia
Pantherophis bairdi
Lampropeltis m. thayeri
Lichanura t. trivirgata
Pseudopus apodus

On what basis do you make that statement Ryan? How can you prove or verify that?
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus

Ask any real pituophis nut thats been reading up for at least the last decade.

Anery occurs in pacific gophers, san diego gophers, perhaps great basin gophers (skull valley).

Axanthic occurs in sonoran gophers & bull snakes
-----
Pituophis c. annectans
Senticolis t. intermedia
Pantherophis bairdi
Lampropeltis m. thayeri
Lichanura t. trivirgata
Pseudopus apodus

I hear u Ryan...but what do U have to say TO or ABOUT the many people who are marketing and selling "so-called" Anerythristic Bull Snakes?
-----
1.1 Trumbower Tricolor P.C.Sayi
0.1 Albino Tricolor P.C.Sayi
1.0 Normal (het.for Anery) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Whitesided (het.for Pat'less,poss.Axan) P.C.Sayi
0.1 Leucistic P.M.Mugitus