Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's been several years since I've kept any reptiles (read: I've been out of the hobby), but I've been won back over today. I collected these in Penn Valley, Northern CA (near Grass Valley) and decided they would make for a fun project.
I can say with relative certainty that the large one is a female. As most people with experience handling reptiles know, when they defecate on you after catching one, and it's a male, the genitalia will pop right out. The juvenile male proved that point quite well, but the larger one "popped out" with nothing (looked female). I see some potential in the colors for a rewarding breeding project as well.

I'm hoping that someone more experienced here can give me an exact ID on the species so I can make sure I'm doing proper research.

Here's the supposed female:

Here's the young male. Probably from last year's brood? I love the red on this one.

Female:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8759959905/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8759966363/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8761098024/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8761111318/

The juvenile male:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8759993743/

Nice alligator lizards... They look like the California alligator lizard (Elgaria multicarinata muticarinata) to me. Definitely in the multicarinata complex, could be an integrade with the Orgegon alligator lizard (Elgaria multicarinata scincicauda). Definitely not Elgaria multicarinata webbii, the San Diego alligator lizard and only other Elgaria muticarinata subspecies native to CA. Since you collected them yourself from the same location they would make a great locality pure breeding project even if they are integrades. You’d be fine just calling them ‘Penn Valley California alligator lizards’. Not sure how to distinguish multicarinata and scincicauda, they are very similar so it would be difficult to prove an integrade. Good luck with them, very underrated pet lizard.

Thanks for a well-thought response! I would agree that they seem to be E. m. multicarinata. I wouldn't be surprised if other subspecies overlapped in distribution with them here though. There seems to be a lot of variability in appearance between individuals.
Due to my current circumstances I have to keep them in cardboard boxes outside (sounds crude at face value, but I assure you is actually quite ideal). One of the caveats of this method though is that if one gets out then you're probably never going to see it again. I probably underestimated the ability of the young male to jump and climb. I lost him pretty quickly, and it was a huge bummer because he had some promising red striping.

With that out of the way though, I've got another one here. It's clearly a female, and from the way her lower belly sags and plumps out, seems to be gravid. She's got a very slender build and mostly olive tones. Check out the differences in the belly scale color between the two females. One female has brightly colored belly scales with bursts of yellow, while this new female has a mostly cool-gray belly.
Female #1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8805835983/
Female #2
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8805825473/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8805994333/
More photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8815705254/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8805136135/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8800274331/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/avpmantis/8800279939/

I really should have taken belly photos to begin with. Going by this, it looks like my new female is a Southern...and the other is probably a Northern!

http://www.californiaherps.com/lizards/images/elgariabellyscalescomparison.jpg

Any second opinions after comparing the belly shots I posted?

...and I wish we had an edit button. I'm a little baffled now as to which subspecies I've got. The new female seems to be a different subspecies than #1, which has the belly scales of a northern? Waiting to see if live babies or eggs show up will be helpful indicators...

The pictures aren't bad, these guys can be difficult to photograph. Sorry to hear you lost one... I can tell you that they are all Southerns or integrades. Definitely multicarinata and not northern alligator lizards. They simply represent a sample of the extremely variable Elgaria muticarinata complex with one tending more toward the northern cousin the Oregon alligator lizard (Elgaria multicarinata scincicauda) and the other looking more like the southern subspecies the San Diego Alligator lizard (Elgaria multicarinata webbii). The gene flow seems to be such that they are darker the further south you go in Cali and lighter the further north up into Oregon. I'd still have to say they are all straight southerns (Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata), they're just that variable. If they represent an integrade population it would be southern (Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata) X Oregon (Elgaria multicarinata scincicauda). Good luck on the eggs if you get some!