Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been looking around a lot lately and doing research on annectens, I've got a pair of applegates and I have a klumpers hypo and het hypo on the way but I was just wondering how many different strains of albino are there? what are the differences? and which ones are compatible?

RE: albinos this is a contentious issue for me and i prefer to keep my thoughts on that to myself for the moment, but heres what I have.

ALBINO
HiRed , Muted ,Extreme Red ,Yellow ,Applegate, Double albino ,Patternless, Michels T plus, New U.K. T plus

HYPO
Klumpers ,U.K Super Hypo , Striped

Snow applegate pheno, U.K apline Snow pheno

Patternless

Plus several normal het phenos.

I was hoping you'd respond Al, Thanks for your response. I didn't realize there were so many strains of albino within annectens. Which are compatible if you don't mind me asking?

Top notch animals Al. That snow is super nice.

Jason

I give my info and my opinions, later today when I have more time on this subject.

Thanks jason

I'm looking forward to it.

Ok these are my opinions, so I hope not to offend or discredit anyone

This is my list of Albino strains
Applegates
Bechtel
Dyer
Klumpers
McGurty

Limburg and Purple blothced, I think are Bechtels (not 100% sure).

I know there are combos that make snow and double albinos several others albino combos that make different color variances.

I call Klumpers, Dyers and McGurty forms of Albino based on colors.

Dyers and Klumpers are combatable. Dyers and Bechtels are combatable. I hear the Applegates and McGurtys are too.

Hope this conversation carry's on to more topic or help answer some questions.

Jason

pic of Dyergate

There are also Bruce Atherton strain albinos that are yorba linda locality.
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Pituophis c. annectans
Senticolis t. intermedia
Pantherophis bairdi
Lampropeltis m. thayeri
Lichanura t. trivirgata
Pseudopus apodus

I've never heard of these ones, When did he find the original snake?

Hi Ryan

Cool I didn't know of that one.

Jason

"Dyers and Klumpers are combatable. Dyers and Bechtels are combatable"

So if Dyers and klumpers are compatable, and Dyers and Bechtels are compatable, are Bechtels and dlumpers compatable? Have you ever done a breeding to see if McGurty and Applegates are compatable? What strains have you personally bred to test compatibility and what were the results?

I have bred Klumpers to Dyer and got all Albinos. Dyer line breed for reduced pattern. Micheal Klumper produced he out of hets originally, which he got from Loyd Lemmke. Lemmke and Dyer knew each other. Its hard for to believe they are different bloodline, because 2 different striped T Albino being produce in 90s. Really come on! Thats my opinion and I could be wrong. I bought Dyers remain breeder stock over 10 years ago. Gregg Feaster and I had imported 5 pairs of Klumpers and hets about 9 years ago, directly form Micheal.

I have produce Bechtel albinos from Dyer to Dyer breeding before. Green Dyers are basically double Albino(Dyer and Bechtel).

Never done done Applegate X McGurty.

I have done Dyer X McGurty and got all normals

Interesting. So if you've gotten Bechtels from Dyer x Dyer, what about Dyers from Bechtel x Bechtel? Where did you hear that McGurty and Applegate are compatible? Visually they don't look like they would be compatible at all.

To me, it sounds like people just line bred different albinism strains and called it their own? it almost seems like people just wanted credit for a morph without actually discovering a morph instead just line breeding it. Personally, if they are compatible to the point that I can produce all homozygote animals from the breeding then they would be the same gene except for in some rare instances such as taffino ball pythons and whatnot or as Kevin McCurley calls it "Acts Like Super" I'd like to do more work to see what genes originated where and which genes are completely different. Has anyone tried to do this with them? because Al has a huge list of strains but it seems like he included line bred traits as well as double homozygote snakes as a different strain which doesn't make sense to me but maybe that's just me? I can understand why there is so much debate about this.

Well I think Al is listing morphs rather then strains. A simple mistake I am sure.

Yeah I think people have mixed all these albinos together so who knows what is what, and I am accused of doing it myself. But I try to keep track of lineages and not misrepresent animals. I and several other people have breed Applegates to Applegates and had a couple normals pop out. Thats because Applegate where het for Bechtels or vice versa.

I never had produce a Dyer from Bechtel X Bechtel breeding.

I will have to email you about the Applegate X McGurty thing.

Jason

I sent you a message about some other stuff. Do you know if any outcrossing has been done with wild stock? I'd like to try and get Pure lines so that I know what I have because having so many variable as to what animal is carrying what is very confusing.

I have done a bunch of outcrossing in the past. This year I'm doing McGurty X WC.

Jason

I really need to get my hands on some good WC stock. May have to plan a trip next year.
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Do or Do not, There is not try

I have a question.
I have a "super hypo" from Al Stotton coming from this Klumpers line.
You call them albino and not hypo.
I thought albino's always have red eyes, Klumpers don't have red eyes.
Tell me if I'm wrong.

Hi John

In my opinion I think Klumpers are a form of albino. I respect yours and others opinions on this subject. I'm not saying I right and your wrong. Its just my opinion. A typical albinos have red eyes. I have hatched Klumpers with reds eyes before.

This pic below is a form of Snow San Diego (Anery and Klumper/albino) in my opinion. Or a form of Ghost if you think its a Hypo (Anery and Klumper/hypo).

Jason

"In my opinion I think Klumpers are a form of albino. I respect yours and others opinions on this subject. I'm not saying I right and your wrong. Its just my opinion. A typical albinos have red eyes. I have hatched Klumpers with reds eyes before"

Simple question for you Jason and its not meant with any malice....

...do albinos have black tongues?

The problem I have with your 're-classification' of what Michel himself created and dubbed hypo as now being albino over 12 years on , is quite simple.........how can an albino have normal coloured eyes and a black tongue?

Michel himself used albino genectics to create the hypo so this is possibly why you are seeing albino types hatch out imo.
This is also maybe why the Klumpers are compatable with certain albinos.
Please remember I was working alongside Michel and breeding the snakes from him for a good few years BEFORE any hatchlings even made it to the U.S!!!

The FACT remains that I have that F1 from Michel that produces these snakes with the non albino traits (tongue ,eyes) and totally unlike any of the ones I've ever seen posted anywhere else.
This snake was a one of a kind female that Michel gifted to me and told me face to face it was up to me to prove out genetic, which of course I have.
The ones I'm seeing in the U.S are clearly not the same thing, for me if they have red tongues and /or red eyes they are not the same phenotype.

This pic clearly shows this snake has black on its neck,this is not an albino trait in my thinking.

I got this snake from Mike Saiz and he bought them from you Jason, Do you know what strain of Albino is in it? It's a hypo and I think it's an albino as well but I'm not sure. I'd love the input and sorry for the bad pic.

Just to correct myself, He didn't buy these snakes from you, he bought the parents from you.

Looks like the Dyer strain.

Jason

Do you think that it's a Dyer Klumper? or just Dyer?

Its hard to say. By looks Dyer. But in my opinion Dyer and Klumpers are the same thing. Although they look different (dark purple to light lavender), they are just line bred for different colors. Dyer was trying to breed the pattern out of them. Which mean less/lighter purple

Jason

I got a trio from Mike about 2 years ago, and he called them Klumpers (also Envy stock). They look prety consistent with the Klumpers on Jason's site. I din't know that Mike worked with Dyers. Why not just get a hold of Mike?