Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Which is the best monitor species to pick for conservation purposes right now if I was going to start breeding them?

yes im listening. it appears niles are not going extinct in florida anytime soon.

What do you mean, conserved?

Hi Izi, your about to be bombed with, captivity has nothing to do with conservation of wild monitors. Which can be debated until the end of the world. So do go there.

Just what does that mean to you. What is important to you? Not to all the armchair conservationist.

If I were going to take this route, I would say, some species that's in the country and is NOT LEGALLY IMPORTED. Which means most of the Australian stuff or philipine stuff. Even Asian stuff too.

I think what others will tell you is, captive breeding does nothing for conservation. Which is right, and wrong. So far, NOTHING is done that is actually conservation. People take, make more babies, then take up more land. The land is habitat. In the whole world, only china is practicing conservation. And only by limiting population growth, More importantly, its growth is educated. Which may or may not mean a darn thing.

Maybe Australia, and only because the people that live there, tend to leave as soon as they can. hahahahahahahaha, I love the country. I guess its normal, Whatever people have, they want something else, but then I wander.

So yea, whats important to you?

ill just tell them i was sent here by the lizard gods

Buy CBB anything.

How does keeping an endangered or threatened species indigenous to Africa, Asia, or Australia in United States beneficial to wild populations, or contribute to its conservation?

1. Cultivating animals of which there is a demand for and shortage of in the marketplace reduces the strain on the wc population.

2. cb animals teaches about the wild animals, even in failures. if a good record is maintained it can help future efforts by anyone

3. even if the species goes extinct in the wild, if you have a cb specimen, it can be used to repopulate. (genetic bottlenecks will be overcome by technological advancements in genetic engineering)

4. if strict rigors are applied to husbandry techniques, even if these technological advancements don't happen (unlikely)you'll still have a live animal to extract enough genomes from it for a clone. also, reintroduction from traditional cb has been successful in the past. not highly successful, but it is possible.

JME, your answer seems to indicate you think that all monitors are in danger of extinction, or that you are in the camp where you don't believe CB is going to help conservation in any way. (I do not agree) I don't know which, because I don't know how bad it is for monitors everywhere. I would not have thought the savannah monitor was in danger of going extinct in the wild in africa, because they have so many cb here now. Someone on another forum was telling me v. beccari were being taken from the wild at a higher rate than the ecosystem could maintain so maybe that is the answer I am looking for.

what do you think?

I am in the other camp, monitors all over the world have shown the ability to live with man. Man likes to increase the population of rats and mice, and monitors are happy to take advantage of that.(and support insects too)

I wondered if small monitors would also take advantage, and they also did. Much like both spinytail and green iguanas do in the Americas. They are far far more common around people, even in big cities, then in undisturbed habitat.

This is true of Savs as well. They are being collected from farmlands.

Also, Savs are NOT captive bred, they take eggs from wild caught females. And the blacktree thing is pure speculation.

Whats interesting to me is, Blacktrees have been collected and exported for over 30 years. They keep exporting similar numbers and they come from one island. So it does seem sustainable. That was the concern, one island.

Monitors of all kinds take advantage of being a generalist with a huge range of prey.

Also, of the appendix 1 species, only the Komodo has a small population. All the others have huge ranges and are common thru out their range. While I love varanids, there are so many other species that are not as versatile as monitors, that are actually in need of help. Cheers

Thanks FR.

That is interesting. there is some concern about the skin trade, right? I mean that is why I can't acquire a v.griseus cb easily. which surprised me because I had never assumed monitors were threatened before I started looking at them.

Izi

First, let me preface my response by saying I find your sudden plans to keep and breed a species for "conservation" purposes amusing, especially considering your recent plans to circumvent international (CITES) and national (Lacey Act) trade restrictions to acquire a critically endangered, CITES 1 species such as Varanus griseus...

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=2010098,2010098

But on to your comments:

1. Cultivating animals of which there is a demand for and shortage of in the marketplace reduces the strain on the wc population.

It does seem like a simple fix- breed more in captivity, fewer will be exported, right? Unfortunately, things are not that simple, and you are assuming that reptile keepers (and humans) will always do the right and ethical thing...

Breeding monitor lizards commercially, with the exception of the subgenus Odatria, is simply cost-prohibitive. I think any private keeper/breeder will have a difficult time offsetting the demand for wild-caught animals when WC animals are sold incredibly cheap. If this was not the case, then why don't we see commercial breeding projects for heavily-exploited species like V. exanthematicus, V. niloticus, V. salvator, or V. indicus? You mentioned V. niloticus as a possible candidate- how would you ever offset the demand for this species when imported animals are sold for $5?

Also, while it is a sad realization, the truth is that the majority of reptile keepers (and your prospective customers) don't give a damn about conservation. The hobby as a whole is one big free for all, take, take, take, for the cheapest price available. Again, most people don't care, and if given the choice between WC and CB, 99% would select the cheaper WC animal.

If you want to reduce the number exploited, export quotas need to be stricter. Fewer specimens collected would lead to higher WC prices (in the hundreds of dollars), which breeders would maybe have a better chance of competing against.

In this we agree, there should a very tight limit on imports(not a ban) which would force them to be bred in captivity. As it is, the governments evolved, are playing politics over conservation.

In otherwords, its an important part of the exporting countries economy. So they do NOT want that limited.

What escapes the conversation is, its been sustainable. So whats the problem??????

We are a bit romantic because its about varanids, if it was about say, Deer in our country, would we feel the same? They are shot by the zillions, and they are free ranging. But we have no problems with that. Cheers

In this we agree, there should a very tight limit on imports...

In otherwords, its an important part of the exporting countries economy. So they do NOT want that limited.

I agree, but the problem is that it is not the importing countries that set trade quotas- it is the exporting countries. I think the export quotas are what need to be changed (barring corruption, etc.). Local collectors could maintain their livelihoods and still make money (perhaps even more?) by collecting fewer animals but charging more for them. To me, this is a win-win situation, and a step in the right direction. But at the moment, as I've said- it's just one big free for all.

What escapes the conversation is, its been sustainable. So whats the problem??????

I don't think there's enough data to support such an assumption that the collection of animals for the WC trade is sustainable. I would argue to the contrary on this in most cases- from African species such as V. exanthematicus (Daniel Bennett has written on the unsustainibility of 'ranching' practices within its range) to insular Indonesian populations like V. macraei (this species has nearly been extirpated from a small offshore island by collection for the pet trade).

Just because these animals continue to show up in the pet trade does not mean that their populations are stable or that their collection is sustainable- all it means is that collectors are finding ways of coming up with new animals. In most cases, this could simply mean moving on to the next locality once an area is depleted or its collecting efficiency decreases.

That's a funny response and one I have heard so many times, you know, there is not enough data. That comment goes both ways. There is no data stating this collecting is harming or threatening this species either.

The FACT, that they still exported/imported in numbers, indicates there IS DATA. If they were hard to find, became rare, then WHERE are they coming from, after all, they are indeed coming from somewhere.

You should know and understand, its not collecting that is the problem with natural habitats. ITs total destruction based on the needs to support the growing human population. So its politics and religion that support the expanding human population. Is that the problem?

As I mentioned, varanids are reptilian rats and prosper in disturbed habitats.

Also, you underestimate the intelligence of locals who collect these animals. They do not dwell on rare or pretty or any of that. They locate and utilize conditions that support numbers of animals. If an animal is rare, its a waste of time. You see, the actual exporters pay by the head, not by rare. They do not run around wasting time looking for something rare, that behavior belongs to people with LOTS OF TIME on their hands.

Lastly, have you or any one of your fellow conservationist took the time to monitor heavily collected populations of any species??????? muchless the species in question? and that is the point. You assume and do not know. Again, I have.

Many of you do exactly what your complaining about here, you run off and "look at" the rare hard to find species, instead of doing the WORK NEEDED. How come there is no data. what are conservationist doing anyway????

So I have to question your stance, you say, no data, then I say, why not??????????????? Again, this has been going on for over 3 decades and there is still no data, hmmmmmmmmmmm sounds like silly talk to me.

first off, I think you're an ass to accuse me of trying to break the law.

Because that is not what I wrote, and if you are going to accuse someone of that you should read more carefully.

I can get a permit because I will have graduated by the time I will put my plan into motion to acquire CB animals. Right now I am not sure what I am going to be doing but it's well within the means of biologists to get permits for reasons the FWS defines themselves.

lastly, ignoring the rest of what you wrote

It seems there isn't much more I can add to this thread as you apparently know all there is to know about CITES and how its trade restrictions work, conservation biology, and the commercial trade in monitor lizards.

For the record, I did not say that you were planning on breaking any laws- I was pointing out that you seem to think that the laws and international trade restrictions put in place to protect these animals from commercial exploitation do not apply to you (i.e., selling them to pet shops/private keepers who want them to set up in an 'in store display'), and that you are going to get these animals anyways in spite of these restrictions- all in the name of "conservation" no less!. As others have pointed out to you already, you are in for a rude awakening.

It's nice to see that you are very enthusiastic about monitor lizards. I hope that this newfound interest will encourage you to read and learn more about their husbandry, biology, and conservation, or even get you to travel to observe and study them in the wild. I would heed the sound advice now given to you by several people in this thread (experienced individuals that might know a thing or two that you do not) and forgo your plans to attempt acquire threatened/endangered species under the guise that it will be for "conservation" purposes.

If anyone is interested in reading more into the exploitation and conservation status of monitor lizards, I highly recommend the following two articles:

www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/Thoc/CanHumansShareSpaceshipEarth.pdf

www.herpconbio.org/Volume_8/monographs/Koch_etal_2013.pdf

2. cb animals teaches about the wild animals, even in failures. if a good record is maintained it can help future efforts by anyone

You are correct in that much has been learned about the biology of reptiles from observations of captives. I am a huge advocate of this through my own published articles and the research journal that we produce (varanidae.org/biawak). I find myself constantly encouraging people to give back and share their experiences.

However, I would not consider this as justification alone to keep and attempt to breed a threatened or endangered species. Most reptile keepers know very little about the natural history of the animals they keep, nor do they care. How many private reptile keepers actually contribute back to the biology of the animals they keep? How many people actually choose to share their observations and experiences with others? Of these, how many do more than share their ramblings on random internet message boards? Of these, how many publish their experiences and data in media that will actually aid in the conservation of the species?

I hope that you are successful in your pursuits and that you choose to publish your observations and experiences so that they can be used to advance understanding of varanid lizard biology. The hobby needs more people of this mentality and approach.

Why is it that all of these types of new keepers want everyone else to be into "conserving" a species by buying captive bred stock but they are not at all concerned with buying wild caught themselves. "Conservation" must be what you expect others to do not you eh Izi? Why not start with captive bred yourself (as John suggested).
It is irresponsible for anyone inexperienced with monitors to buy and support the wild caught trade.
This is an attitude we see over and over again, I'd bet between Bob, John, Frank and myself we've seen this exact same argument 100 times in the last 15 years, neophyte keepers think they'll save the species, without any experience by supporting the wild caught trade, because they will be different man, cause they're really into it.
Buy a captive bred species, hell argus and flavies would seem to fit your interest and learn how to keep them, raise them, breed them, THEN you'll have a chance of actually being helpful to the animals. Trust me, you'll have an entirely different approach once you gain some basic experience, until you do, if you buy wild caught, you are just part of the problem.
Ben Aller

Well I can't say I can argue with the "buy only captive bred argument" but I can't learn from it either. All of my animals were CB except for my first monitor, it was given to me when I was 15. I never considered getting a WC specimen, and I shan't.

But I might be able to help you with a suggestion. Go get a third grade education and maybe you'll have the reading comprehension to understand what it is you are responding to.

I get it, critical thinking is not your thing, no problem. I'll try and fit in some 3rd grade learnin' between owning and running my AZA exhibit designing and fabricating business and continuing my 20 year run of keeping/breeding monitors. Good luck with your habi-trail idea, I did that 5 or 6 years ago with my olivaceous, I learned a lot and came up with some interesting solutions to the problems that inevitably arise, but your so smart you obviously don't need any help from an idiot like me.
B

so what happened to those greys monitors?

Pics taken today,15-20 minuets ago.

3. even if the species goes extinct in the wild, if you have a cb specimen, it can be used to repopulate. (genetic bottlenecks will be overcome by technological advancements in genetic engineering)

Can you name a single case where a government or conservation agency has sought out private reptile keeper for repopulating a dwindling or extinct population with specimens under their care? There is a reason for this.

Geographic Origins.

Assurance populations maintained in zoos for the purpose of potential reintroduction typically include specimens with known collection localities. This helps ensure that appropriate population genetics are maintained upon reintroduction. Zoo populations of threatened and endangered species are very closely managed in terms of their genetics, and propose 'optimal pairings' for maintaining appropriate genetic diversity.

Animals in private keepers' collections originating from the pet trade typically do not have accurate or precise locality data. The difference between Togo, Benin, or Ghana, can mean significant differences in population genetics, and introduction of animals from the wrong population can potentially have devastating effects on a population.

Again, can you name a single example where animals in a private keeper's collection were used in population reintroductions? Claiming that private keepers will contribute to reintroductions is a silly justification for keeping threatened or endangered. species in captivity.

4. if strict rigors are applied to husbandry techniques, even if these technological advancements don't happen (unlikely)you'll still have a live animal to extract enough genomes from it for a clone. also, reintroduction from traditional cb has been successful in the past. not highly successful, but it is possible.

I'm sorry, but this is even more ridiculous a justification than the "possibility" of reintroducing captive animals from private keepers' collections.

Again, governmental agencies and conservation groups will never utilize animals from the private keeper sector because of the ambiguity of their origins, among other risks that could prove devastating to a population (i.e., diseases they may be harboring, etc.).

I would just like to add the original poster has no concept of what it takes to clone something nor the applications with which that technology is currently used.

The manner in which the poster suggested is science fiction. There is not any cloning of entire genomes into new organisms of that species from regular DNA samples. Plus the effort and money needed to pursue such an endeavor if it were possible is well beyond anything that will be funded for lizards or reptiles unless we find out monitor saliva cures cancer. Even then it would be very difficult.
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"We are challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations" George W.

Edit, I just wanted to clarify we are discussing eukaryotic genomes here. Lots of E. coli and other bacteria are easily cloned from DNA samples. Once there is a nucleus and the genomes are massive, recombination of chromosomes and all that, it is much, much more complicated.
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"We are challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations" George W.

Hows it going, been to the dens this year? Anyway, the OP was just trying to rationalize the "possible" reasons for keeping Appendix 1 monitors. But we are long past that.

The actual concept of conservation is just about as far off as cloning, hahahahahahahaha.

Everybody talks the talk, but no one walks the walk. Anyway, again, past that.

Anyway, tomorrow is always tomorrow, we have no idea what it will bring. Hopefully something changes and such things as conservation of HABITAT, occur.

Hows the cougs going to do this year?

Hey Frank,

Going good here, I was super busy in the spring. I went to Sao Paulo for two weeks and then was home four days an then to Amsterdam for another week......it was crazy. But I did get out and see my snakes a few times.

I have been spending a LOT of time playing with that LC and exploring. I really love that machine. I have primary parenting duties now because my travel is done and my wife is now traveling a lot with here work. So I grab my two year old daughter and we explore the hills! I have been finding killer mushroom hunting spots. I am about to have a lot more time, so I will definitely be taking it down to your hills to play.

In addition to all that I have been hatching lots of ackies. I have eggs cooking now and had so many babies I had to start selling them!

Cougs are big question mark in my mind. Bone is in the hot seat this year, he needs to win games. The recruiting class coming in is highly regarded, but you know how that can go. Brock graduating leaves big shoes to fill. Right now I am pretty desperate to see our FB team turn it around. Hopefully Leach can repeat the magic success he had down at ttech.

I am in agreement with you on environment and preserving habitat types. Here in the PNW they are starting to focus more in that domain from what I can tell. I had some guys working for the state approach me for rattlesnake habitat and key areas needed for their survival, and it looks like there is some interest in protecting these type areas. They are looking at the whole Columbia Plateau Ecoregion and published a big thing on it. To my surprise they are making the local brand rattlesnakes a priority. I think there is hope, what is really sad is as far behind as we are, for the most part, we are still light years ahead of the rest of the planet.
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"We are challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations" George W.

Izi,

I think you misunderstood what I'm trying to say. The best way you can support conservation efforts is to buy animals that are CBB.

I totally agree with that.

Hi Izi, I think your missing the point. And most people do miss the point. Very very few people actually breed monitors, and by breeding monitors, I mean the ability to take them generations. The reality is, most cannot successful produce any babies.

So when you say conservation, and your description below, it means the ability to maintain them for long periods of time, generations.

The problem is not knowledge, as the picture I posted of the three medium sized to large species. A Sand monitor, a White throat, and a lace monitor, all hatched in the same egg box at the same time. hahahahahha that's the neat part. All three were offspring of parents, I hatched and I hatched their parents too.

What I am getting at is, the knowledge to conserve these animals is there. Its just not done.

The reason is simple. ITs work and takes space. If you think about it, your own idea of a 12 foot cage. Say that works for a pair. The problem is, a pair is not a program. ITs a pair. You need large groups and many many cages to be meaningful.

As a zoo builder, I would hear them say this and that about conservation and endangered species. Then I would say, if you want me to believe in your conservation, then come back to me when the AZA devotes an entire zoo to an endangered species. They don't and won't do that. The reason is simple, zoos are for entertainment. I know, I helped design them and built them.

Lets see, the base design is people flow. which is how do you get people moving to retail centers. Hit them as the enter the zoo, then move them from exhibit to retail centers, then again as they leave. Zoos want people in the zoo, then out as quickly as possible. No bottlenecks etc. But I rant. And I can rant a whole lot more. continued

The point is, which species. Any species you choose will have both a positive(if your good) and a negative effect.

About conservation, some will argue, and some means, theres always somebody. Awareness is the key, the more humans that are aware of a species, the more support can be gained when actually needed.

As an example, if bearded dragons were in trouble in nature, people from nearly every country would be there to offer support. Yet if a netted dragon was in trouble. The comment would be, NETTED DRAGON???? what the heck is that. They occur side by side in nature, but most people of the world do not know what a netted dragon is. Which do you think people will support, the known species, or some other species.

Back to the actual problem, you as an individual, cannot keep hundreds or produce hundreds for others to keep. So awareness will be a minimum.

You could with a smaller species where SPACE is not such a huge requirement.

So I say, ARGUS montiors, a bucket of fun, they are one of the few TEACHING monitors. That is, They will survive your mistakes. And they will do those Crazy ideas you come up with, you know, tubes between cages. Best of luck

I am interested in the possibility of integrating the public better with conservation efforts, enough to make a major impact. Not sure what hasn't been done yet but I'm sure it will come as an idea in time.

I remember talking to you here years ago although I don't remember about what. I am pretty sure it was about zoo design, I was [bleep]ing about the ATL zoo's rainbow boa setup. and well, you have a very distinctive writing style which is a bit hard to forget, i'll tell you that.

So all this time I have been reading, and I'm supposed to be developing a five and ten year plan for after I graduate. Monitors are a very big deal to me, although I like all herpetology. I don't exactly know what I'm doing but I have an unfortunate amount of experience breeding things, because of my family, who has been into just about everything. (except herps)

You can imagine i've been reading a lot of stuff about Monitor lizards, everything online I could find, trying to catch up and there is this guy named Frank Retes who has done a lot of stuff for the CB state of monitors today, and everyone was talking him up like he was the monitor god. Well I'm not dumb so I put together 2 and 2 and figured out FR must be the same guy I was just talking to on kingsnake. It's very nice talking to you and I have learned a lot which I'm grateful for, thank you.

I would like to try the "hamster cage" idea. I love the idea of the Argus monitor,. I don't know why but I thought they might be difficult. Anyways I'll see what I can come up with as far as cage designs and repost them here or maybe on your forums.

Izi

Hi Izi, I am Frank Retes, and I am no god, of any sort. But I have worked with varanids.

So great, Argus monitors. They are wonderful and will teach you lots and lots.

So when are we going to talk about the understanding of varanids??? I am ready, hmmmmmmm my neck is sore from working on cages. hahahahahahahahaha

I told you the conservation thing would get messy. And there is good reason, there is no real conservation efforts, other then KD's. Best wishes

I am very excited, they are cool monitors. they love to tripod, don't they? lots of pics of them like that. its hilarious. And they have that beautiful black streak on their eye and leopard like spots on their neck. They're very attractive monitors.

I have way too many choices for housing I think. First of all, it seems the cage with 3 opaque walls is desireable. Is that so? I am assuming this is so the animals feel more secure.

How much digging space do they need? I see people using feed troughs and building around it. How big of a pool do they use?