Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all. It's been a while. My hatching season has just started and what is coming out is confusing me more. First some history.

Six years ago I bred a Ghost male to my Stillwater Hypo female. The result of that breeding was a pot load of normal apparently triple het offspring. I sold all but kept two pairs. Last year I bred only one pair as I've been trying to cut back on how much I'm breeding. (Want to enjoy it instead of it being so much work). Anyway, the resulting clutch from this first pair blew me away. Out of 16 eggs, 3 of them were whiteside, 5 of them were normal appearing possible hets, and EIGHT of them were albino! What the??????????? Where is the albino coming from and in such numbers? Why didn't I get a single hypo? I kept 1.2 albinos back.

So, skip to this year. I didn't breed the first pair, instead electing to breed the second "virgin" pair. The eggs have just begun to hatch and the first three out are pictured below (there is another het out but it isn't in the pic). So far there is what appears to be a stillwater-type hypo, two possible hets, and a SNOW! What the??????? There is another hypoish head sticking out of an egg. Most of the rest are pipped, but heads aren't out yet.

Anyone want to venture a guess as to what is going on genetically with these two pairs? IF both of the grandparents were het for albino, wouldn't the F1 offspring have had some albinos? Let's say that I somehow had the crappiest odds ever and all of the F1 offspring were possible het albino. What are the odds that I SOMEHOW held back 2.2 het albinos out of a clutch of all possible hets? What are the odds of that? I'd say nearly impossible.

The only thing that I can think of is that the combination of the two hypos produces an albino looking animal, however in Mendelian terms, the numbers still don't add up. If that's the case, the snow that just hatched would have to be triple homozygous. Anyone confused yet? Me too.

another pic

Jeremy,

THANK GOD you are back! I have missed you my friend!!

Now, let me be the first to say this one piece of important info:

I have no idea what is going on..haha!!

Now..let me ask? Is that the snow you are talking about? I may be wrong, as I am not in any way any genetic expert, but my first thought is that right there is a ghost/really faded ghost, not a snow? Snows also have red eyes, right? That seems to have dark eyes.

POST as many pics as you can of everything! Your bulls reign supreme!!
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Genesis 1:1

Ha! It's good to hear from you too, Billy.

The pic does make it out to be a bit darker, but rest assured he does have red eyes. I'll post a pic here in a bit.

Though he is not a ghost, even if he was, that doesn't explain all of the other straight up albino offspring that were produced last year from the other pair.

Give me a few and I'll try to get an eye shot of this one.

Here's the best I could do with my phone. They are most certainly red, but the more I look at them, they do look a bit different. There seems to be a darker ring around the iris. I don't know what to think for sure.

I just spent the last five minutes doing nothing but look at this ones eyes. The center is a glowing ruby red and the surrounding area is a purple/lavender color. It is GORGEOUS.

Been forever since I have seen snow bull babies, so yea, my guess is very much on limited info...haha!!! I just thought that your bull there had more pattern than other snows I have seen, and looked similar to ghost babies I have seen.

That is a trip about those eyes!!!

Even though this is confusion, this is just very cool!!!

PM sent.
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Genesis 1:1

Very cool is right.

I won't argue that it looks a little different than a typical snow, but it definitely has the red eyes. I can't rule out that it's something different...remember, there's two hypo genes in play. Maybe this is a double hypo white side?

OK so you have the stillwater hypo in play, what line was the ghost from.

The ghost grandfather was a generic. As Jason pointed out, it is entirely possible that he was het for albino and I just hit some crazy cracked out odds for a couple of clutches. I just peaked in on this clutch and there are a couple more hypo heads sticking out now so the ratios are making much more sense with this clutch than last year's.

Gotta love this time of the year!

I went back to my records and it was a Bell line.

I have never heard of Bell line hypo. I have heard of Bell line whiteside though.

That is not a snow. It is probably a ghost (WS hypo). Snows have all red eyes, no lavender at all. Ghost have blueish/lavender eyes.

These are snows: (https://www.google.com/search?q=snow bull snake&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=RlHnUY3_IJSC9gTOsYHoCw&biw=1366&bih=667&sei=SVHnUYJZi_L2BI-2gIAJ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=Qyeat4xUlIbAQM:;pzUMJt6_4weXqM;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweeneysserpents.com%2FDSC_0009.JPG;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sweeneysserpents.com%2Fsnakes4sale.htm;1504;1000)

Holy long link! Either way congrats on the good clutch! Always nice to get unexpected animals! I agree with what Jason said about the genetics.

http://www.sweeneysserpents.com/DSC_0009.JPG

I definitely agree with you. The snake I produced is not like that at all. Still, I can't recall ever producing or seeing a ghost with red eyes...iris or complete. I'd love to hear if anyone else has.

Hey Lucas, have you ever seen a ruby eyed lavender cal-king? That's what this ones eyes remind me of. Thanks for the input. It is appreciated.

yes I have. But don't know much other than the name of the morph. Is it permanent?

Yes, it stays with them throughout their life. Here's a head shot o an adult that I just found.

You mean the Blue Eyed Blonde Elfin forest lavendar/hypoish Cal kings from Vivid Reptiles.
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Genesis 1:1

I remember those, but not sure they're the same thing as what I've pictured above. I went to Vivid's website and it doesn't look like they're working with the ones you mentioned. (bummer!) I bought my first pair of ruby eyed lavender cal-kings in 1994 at one of the K.C.H.S. shows. That was a while ago. As with many other animals I've sold since then, I wish I still had them. Oh well.

I think I'm going to keep this one for sure and probably a couple of its siblings. So far this morning there's another normal and another hypo out of the egg. Gonna have to wait until I get home from work to find out what else is in there.

Something else I just thought about is that I've got a clutch due to hatch in the next week and a half to two weeks that should produce just a straight Bell line ghost. If I get one, I'll put the two of them side by side for a pic.

Have a good one, Billy!

I'd be just as stoked either way. Has anyone seen a ghost with a red iris?

I have heard of this in other species but not this one. It usually goes away if I remember right. It is sometimes the artifact of the camera flash in some cases.

Should've mentioned. No flash in any of these pics. I just got this smart phone a couple of days ago and haven't mastered it yet. I did increase the exposure though. Every time I've tried the flash with this phone it completely whites everything out to where you can't see a thing.

Thanks again for the input.

Hi Jeremy

Congrats on the Bulls, they are super nice.

Well I would say that your ghost was het for Albino. Making Ghost X Stillwater hypo offspring quad hets (Hypo, Stillwater Hypo, Whitesided and Albino. They would have been only 50% poss het for albino. But looks like they panned out to be 100% albino. As far as odd ratios, funny odds. Weird stuff happens man.

Jason

You are probably right. Man, I should've been buying lottery tickets those years huh! That's gotta be the explanation. I can't think of anything better.

It's just crazy to not get any hypos out of the first clutch and so many albinos. That was the main thing that threw me off.

Thanks for the input, Jason.

Hypothetically, what if these albino's are actually double hypo's? Wouldn't that explain a lot?

So has anyone ever produced double hypo's? Stillwater x Trumbower, or Stillwater x Bell?

I definately would like to see the results.
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

I've mentioned that here and agree with you. That is a very real possibility. I held back 1.2 of the albinos last year to do some test breeding. The number one test is going to be breeding one of these to a "standard" albino. If I get all albinos, the mystery is solved and I did hit some stupid odds.

Thanks for the input!

I was told that the Trumbower and Stillwater hypo lines were incompatible, and would not produce hypos? Now I'm confused...

That appears to be the consensus, but I'm not sure if this is based on actual crossbreeding results, or just something people assume. If not on the same locus, it would very well be possible to breed a Bull which is homozygous both for Trumbower and Stillwater. It would probably result in an unusually bright colored hypo, perhaps even very similar to an albino. But as long as nobody reports anything on this, who really knows?
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I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.