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Hi, I was very intrigued to read your post below,("Confused" and the subsequent responses. (Wasn't really sure where I wanted to post these questions,as the threads began to take on their own identities to some degree ) my first question is in regards to the original parental genetics,you said originally you bred a "ghost" to your Stillwater hypo....was the "ghost" an axanthic hypo,or was this a hypo white-sided? (Just curious) also it seems you are working with the strain of "white-sided" that produces cleaner,stark white laterals,(I think this is generally considered to be the Trumbower strain?) are these two strains genetically compatible? Was your original ghost from this strain of white-sided? There are some very interesting characteristics about the "non Stillwater" hypos,and I've been trying to find out more about what we usually call "generic",and,"Trumbower" hypos...it is either an extremely variable mutation,or perhaps there are actually a couple of different strains,or bloodlines that have been knowingly,or unknowingly bred together. there are also some very cool things happening with the Stillwater strain,and I have a Stillwater white-sided that has red eyes.

Thank you for your post! I'm happy to answer the questions and pleased to hear that you've had similar happenings.

1. "in regards to the original parental genetics,you said originally you bred a "ghost" to your Stillwater hypo....was the "ghost" an axanthic hypo,or was this a hypo white-sided?"

answer - The grandparent ghost was a Bell Hypo Whiteside

2. "Just curious) also it seems you are working with the strain of "white-sided" that produces cleaner,stark white laterals,(I think this is generally considered to be the Trumbower strain?)"

answer - there are several people on this forum that know me from a long time ago. (some of them even own my stock) I have spent a decade breeding whitesides and have selectively bred for the stark white laterals. I've also bred for coal black eyes. I'll have to post some pics of the clutch I just hatched out (straight whiteside clutch). They are AMAZINGLY clean with coal black eyes.

I don't believe there are two strains of whiteside, just that the particularly better looking forms may be originally attributed to Craig Trumbower. The "salt and pepper" whitesides and the super cleans will produce all whitesided offspring when bred together.

3. "Was your original ghost from this strain of white-sided?"

answer - As mentioned above, I don't believe there are two "strains" (which I define as not producing homozygous offspring when bred together). With that said, all of my original stock was hand selected for the high white sides. In the beginning, I would get about twenty percent that were what I deemed a grade 10 animal. The clutch I produced this year produced all grade 10's with the exception of one animal and she is a solid 8. One thing I noticed early on is that all of the best looking whitesides seemed to be male. I finally produced a female that looked like I wanted a few years ago and have kept her back. She is a six foot chunky girl now that produced this years clutch.

to be continued... ran out of room

...continued from previous post...

4. "There are some very interesting characteristics about the "non Stillwater" hypos,and I've been trying to find out more about what we usually call "generic",and,"Trumbower" hypos..."

answer - I have a trumbower hypo that was purchased from KJ and Donn Soderberg. They are a VERY different animal and look nothing like either the Bell line of the Stillwater line. I haven't introduced my trumbower to anything in the line of bulls in question and don't plan on it. I don't want to muddy the waters any more.

5. "there are also some very cool things happening with the Stillwater strain,and I have a Stillwater white-sided that has red eyes."

This is the most exciting thing I've heard yet! It would explain nearly everything. If a Stillwater Ghost has red eyes, that would tell me what this animal is. I've produced Bell ghosts and they look much different than this animal. As of this morning, there were no out and out albinos out of the egg, but there were Hypos, hets, and this "ghost". If I get no albinos out of this clutch, then Jason Nelsons suggestion that my original grandfather ghost was also het for albino is completely plausible. I could see lucking out and getting a pair of het albinos out of a clutch of possible hets, but it would be amazing to pick two pairs.

Thank you very much for posting. I'm hopeful that you've solved it for me. Much appreciated! BTW, how about a pic of that Red eyed whiteside?!?!?!?!?!? I'd love to see that. A red eye with the dark patterning would be sweet!

Jeremy,

I asked this below but it probably got lost. I have not heard of the Bell line hypo. I have heard of Bell line whitesides. Do you have any more info on the Bell line? Could you post a picture of the Bell line hypo?

Interesting stuff going on with that clutch.

You are totally correct. I got twisted up. Let me clear up.

When I looked at my records I was half asleep and when I saw the name "Bell" I had hypo stuck so far into my head that it didn't register. The Bell line whitesides and Trumbower whitesides are the same thing, just different phenotypically. When breeding one to the other, all whitesides are produced with varying degrees of cleanliness. (all of this I'm sure you know)

So, now in saying that, the grandparent ghost was indeed a generic hypo that was sold to me as having Bell whiteside lineage, however he was cleaner than most that I'd seen which is why I used him. The line names didn't/don't really matter much to me. I was just after the cleaner look. I'll have to dig up a pic to post of him. He was a VERY rusty colored animal.

Thanks for catching that, Lucas. I appreciate it. This thing has been confusing (yet exciting) for me and I'm stoked to hear about Rain's red eyed animal. Things are making more sense. Sorry for the confusion.

Should have said this in the statement on the previous post. Where I made the comment "The line names didn't/don't really matter much to me. I was just after the cleaner look." I should also have added that in the beginning I wanted to have a more broad genetic base as I knew I would be line breeding more. Picking out a cleaner Bell line whiteside made sense at the time.

This is all great info guys... Being new to breeding I'm trying to take in all this stuff I can. Thanks for sharing the lineages and genetic info!

I'll do my best not to confuse you! Feeling like an idiot right now over the Bell line thing. Many thanks to Lucas for pointing that error out!

No problem Jeremy! I wasn't sure if it was just a line I haven't heard of which is totally possible. I prefer to keep my hypo names with my animals due to the compatibility question of the hypo lines. As for whitesides, I don't think it really matters. Can't wait to see the rest of the clutch!

First let me say this is a crappy picture of a gorgeous animal,I had two of these but recently a couple of animals became available,and I traded one to a friend.to my knowledge there are only two in existence at the moment (that may have changed when your animals hatched?) when I first saw these in late 2011, I knew I had to have one,and it led me down the current obsessive path that I find myself on today...I now own about 50 (something?) bull snakes!!! (*LOL*) I certainly don't want anyone to think I'm taking credit for producing this gem,that distinction goes to one Mr. Jonel Lopez,and she was produced with,what were originally thought to be "quad hets"(these animals have now proven themselves to be "quint hets".) and I have seven or so siblings to the animal pictured here. Like you,I'm very excited by these recent developments,and the only reason I didn't post a reply sooner was that I was trying to "soak it all in",so to speak before I said anything,I just wanted to make sure I understood what the original parents were....anyway congratulations on your newest hatchlings,I hope you'll share more pictures as time permits,(I will try to get better about posting some better pics of my "herd" in the next few months!) also thank you for providing the additional info about the hypos & white-sided morphs,I greatly appreciate storing that info in my memory bank for use at a later date!

THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love that thing! Seriously goosebumping right now it's so cool.

I will certainly post more pics. I can't wait to get home from work and open that egg box.

Thank you very much for helping me out.

The pleasure's all mine! Your recent posts reaffirm my original thoughts,and have me very excited about future projects with these awesome animals!

Hi Jeremy

First off Congratulations on the animals you produced this season. It very fun to get these surprises with breeding multi-het animals and some animals look more amazing than what we could have imagined. As Tim (Rainshadow) mentioned I have produced hypo (stillwater gene) white-sided animals from my collection 2 years ago. I actually posted them in this forum back then but looking back at the archives it seems like there's a gap on the timeline of about a year and could not find my original post. I produced 3 females that season (all pictured below) and I was also surprised that the stillwater hypo gene produces animals with ruby eyes. They are amazing looking animals to say the least with lavender and chocolate colors as well. The animals below were a result of breeding my Axanthic White-sided Speckled poss het Albino male bred to a pure F2 Stillwater Hypo female. Those produced quad hets (and so i thought) that produced these Hypo White-sided animals. I kept another male Axanthic White-sided Speckled poss het hypo (stillwater gene) a season before that I proved to be a het for albino after breeding to what I thought was quad hets until this season. This season I proved that my quad hets were quin hets for speckled, white-sided, axanthic, albino, and hypo (stillwater gene). I hoping to see what other morph combos come out these animals as I have 2 more clutches incubating for 2013. This is so much fun and exciting!

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Jonel M. Lopez

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WOW! I'm goosebumping right now! Those are absolutely amazing and I'm stoked to watch my pair grow up. The eyes really are incredible. They are so intense!

Thanks for helping add to the clarity of this clutch. I'm definitely excited for the future.