Reptile & Amphibian Forums

in the past 5 years, a lots of my hogs have been dead, i am from Hong Kong, trying to find the problem of it, i can know that almost all my collections dead from parasite, but in HK, there are not enough for powerful medicine like Flagyl to remove the parasite in short, so all my hogs probably dead from this,
how come i new that the problem is from parasite, is that their stools which is like bloody, fowl-like...etc. they refuse food, and become thinner and thinner, weaker and weaker, finally dead~

i want to raise some questions how to avoid parasite disease? )i know that stress is one of the biggest problem if they don't feel comfortable of their cage) any other things i can do better to prevent the problem of parasite or stress from them??

please give me some advice and suggestions!!
Thanks~

Hello, I hope I can help you. I am one of the older keepers here and luckily we had to develop ways to control flagellated protozoa.

Before Flagel came along, there was amtril(a guess) before that nothing.

Your right, protozoa infections are stress induced. In most cases, the stress is caused by Heat. To much, to long, no way to escape the heat, or lower their body temps.

For instance, prolonged temps over 85F, can promote massive blooms of protozoa.

This is also species related, some species can take more heat the others.

I recommend allowing both cool and warm temps, at all times. A Room temperature( 75F) cage, with a small spot(half the size of the snake coiled up) in one corner. A hot spot of 90F is good, no more then 100F.

These temps are NOT exact. But these temps will work with all species of colubrids.

The simple supporting of temperature choices, so the snake can pick what it wants, eliminates Protozoa infections.

Once you have supported this, then feed your hognose very small food items until the lining of the digestive track heals and it will. Best of luck and are there no vets in Hong Kong?

Thanks FR

HK does have vet but they have much experience to treat cats and dogs, for reptiles, I don't really think they have experience so much...

For the treatment, they mainly take antibiotic.

The charge for treatment also really high in HK vet as well...

你在哪里收购生猪的吗？它们是野生捕捞或圈养出生的？什么样的温度保持你的猪？什么类型的容器是生猪的吗？你有你的设置的任何照片，如果是这样，请后。你保持任何其他蛇类？他们遭受同样的问题，你的猪？

希望能帮助你，迈克

I am appreciated to your kind translate the English to Chinese for me, i will try my best to use English to reply you~

1st of all, the original parents hogs that i kept before were bought from reptiles store~

the temp i keep for them is around 85 separately, cage is Hagen plastic cage~ i don't provide any heat spot for them so the atmosphere inside the cage is almost the same, but i my home, the humidity level is quite high, always more that 75%...

now, what i keep are all my breed, CB 2010, CB 2011...
albinos and het albino

i don't keep other kind of snakes, just western hognose snakes!!

Well I'm pretty much a newbie with Hognose, but I see one flag right away, that's the humidity. W. Hognose don't seem to do well in high humidity. The temp is a bit high also if it doesn't get any lower at some point during the day. If there is a way to lower the humidity, I think they would do much better in the long run.

I'm sure others will jump in here and state some points also.

W. Hognose are from dry areas and high humidity above 60% IMO is going to give you trouble.

很高興你喜歡我的企圖在中國，谷歌翻譯器是好玩的，你是我的第一個中國人能夠使用它好日子資深生豬男子！麥克風

Well Google translator doesn't translate as well as I would hope, what I had meant to say in Chinese is...."I'm glad you like my attempt at Chinese, Google translator is fun to play with. You're my first Chinese person to be able to use translator on my fellow Hog man! Mike

i am happy as well...
yes, google translater is powerful, but not exactly what you mean, but i can guess what you trying to mean, i am also sorry for my poor English to communicate with you guys, but i never use such translater, if i don't know some words or phases, i will try to find out from Dictionary...but my English Grammar is poor...hope that all of you don't mind about this!! LOL~!

for the hogs of view, i will try to install a fan at one side, and also use the heat pad at the other side of the cabinet trying to make the ventilation better and which can also provide a heat spot for them...i think with the help heat pad, the humidity level will be much more lower in the snake cages, thanks a lot for your kind advice~

but i still have a question about the stress of hogs...before i don't really know, but now know, "Temperature" is one of the reason to become stress...

how about the noise?? i don't know their hearing sense, you know the carbinet is inside the kitchen, and when the door the shutting, it's very loud noise and vibrant, such kind of disturbing and shocking, will also be harm to them and make them become stress??

please some other hognose keepers can give me more advice,
HK is very a small city, most of people here, if they are not rich person, normally cannot afford to live in HOUSE, that's why it's hard to provide a spare room (reptile room) for their lovely herps...

so we must to provide the best we can, to make them live comfortable and happy with us...

i will take some photo of my home, esp. the snake cabinet to let other take a look~

the time now is almost 6pm in HK, i think most of you are still sleeping...have a good dream~!!

Your English is great, much better then our Chinese. Which makes me sad.

I think your problem is HEAT. As in, too much. Snakes always use a range of temps, and normally pick cooler temps that are offered on care sheets. They also pick hotter temps as well.

I mention this to point out, what you read is based on AVERAGE in captivity conditions. That work, in the average conditions. But not in exceptional conditions like you have.

About humidity, hognose are bound to humidity. That is, they do not come out of the ground unless their humidity requirements are met.

You must understand, there is a difference between humidity and wetness. Hognose do not like to be WET, but do seek high humidity.

Using a fan on snakes is not a good approach.

What are the temps in your kitchen, in the winter, spring, summer, and fall. Warm in the summer and cool in the winter is good.

In the summer, the average(ambient) temps, should not exceed 85F for long periods. Is your kitchen hotter then 85F?

What temps you need to measure is not room temps, but instead, the temps where the hognose sit, as that can be very different then room air temps. ITs hot there in HK so my bet is, cages against walls are hotter the room temps. So the temps may actually be much hotter then you think? please measure. Best wishs

Your English is great, much better than my Chinese thru Google When first writing on translator it says one thing, but then it changes words around. Hog's=Pig's which was funny looking after it was used in certain phrases. lol So no worries about your English...you are doing great!

If your ambient temps is 85F or above, you don't need a hot spot, especially if your container is small like 5 quarts or 4 to 6 liters. I've been asking other keepers and so far all of them are saying high humidity is one of the problems you will run into with Hog's. You may be inducing stress more with the humidity than the vibration of opening and shutting cabinets.

I don't have a hot spot for mine. The temp range is as high as 84F during the day to about 77F at night. I'm in Texas the humidity is between 30% to 45% inside my house. They are doing fine, they roam around everyday.

Is there a way to bring the humidity down for yours?

Hi Austin, no offense, but didn't you just get your hogs???? like a couple days ago.

Please understand, what folks tell you is important, but the actual doing is more important.

For instance, What is the difference between humidity and wetness. Hognose avoid wetness and seek medium to high humidity. So Dry and humid is good. Do you understand that? most folks don't.

Most folks do not understand the difference, and in this context its important to understand the difference. Wet is a liquid and humidity is a gas.(so to speak, simply put).

If conditions allow the gas to become a liquid, then the cage is wet, that is to be avoided. That occurs with any degree of humidity. For instance how you car window fogs up, humid inside, cold out side, pulls the water out of the air, it creates wetness.

An example, a cage with 60% air humidity, that's heated from the inside, and the rooms cooler, will make the cage wet. 60% is a great normal humidity, except in these conditions. The contact point, the cage walls will draw the humidity out of the air and make water. The higher the humidity, the less the temperature difference needs to be.

Our question should be, is the cage dry or wet, that is whats important with hogs and rosies and many other reptiles.

But your right, the OP most likely does not have to heat the cages and if the house the cages are in, is not so humid that theres water on the walls and floor, then that is fine, I would think any humidity a human can live in(inside a house) is good for a Hognose.
please, you surely are welcome to post on this, just make sure, the OP knows your actual experience level. Best wishes

I may be new to Hog's (aka Pig's in Chinese) but I've kept snakes for over 7 years in the past, evolution hasn't evolved enough to change the fact that if the heat and humidity is too high you will cook your snake! Yes it's going to be different for a snake in the ground vs snakes kept in cages of some sort. I don't know anyone that keep snakes in the ground so I'm trying to help a fellow Pig man that is keeping his in a high heat and high humidity conditions in a box! Without making him feel stupid! I don't see anyone else jumping in here to help him out...and I know others are reading this thread.

RH can be explained as the "closeness the air is the saturation". When the RH is less than 40%, it feels dry outside, and when the RH is greater than 80% it feels moist outside (dewpoint will determine if it is uncomfortably moist or just regularly moist). Between 40 and 80% RH is comfortable if the temperature is also comfortable.

The worst combination for human comfort is a high dewpoint (65 F or above) combined with a high RH. If the dewpoint is above 65, it will generally always feel uncomfortably humid outside. Obviously, the temperature could climb to over 100 and result in a low RH, but the quantity of moisture in the air is still high and will be noticed.

The optimum combination for human comfort is a dewpoint of about 60 F and a RH of between 50 and 70% (this would put the temperature at about 75 F). The air feels dry outside when BOTH the dewpoint is below 60 F AND the RH is less than 40%.

continued next page....

Now the dilemma, how does the public differentiate the "meaning" between a high dewpoint and a high RH when they both indicate the air is humid??? Dewpoint is related to the quantity of moisture in the air while relative humidity is related to how close the air is to saturation. How the public is to understand this difference in meaning can be a challenge. The challenge can be overcome by describing how the weather feels and relate that information to the current dewpoint and relative humidity.

Different areas have different levels, it's not a set point and temp....we have the ability to cool ourselves by changing our environment, our snakes have a very limited window being kept in a box. So it's more important to understand humidity and temps variations in a given area. I feel temperature is the most important thing first of all, dew point next and humidity is the result of the two.

So if the environment is 85F deg's and RH is over 60% or so it's uncomfortable not only for us but for snakes too!

Hi again Austin, again your confusing animals and humans(anthropromorphic) They do not sweat, so they will not become clammy from lack of dehydration.

Also, google up how temps and humidity work. 85F and 60% humidity is just that and a lovely condition for snakes when they want heat.

Take that same box and increase the temps to 90% and that changes the RH, it causes it to increase.

Me on the otherhand, don't play those silly games. I offer a choice in both temps and humidity, then not worry. Hogs, and watersnakes are a like, both want to be dry unless they are in the water. humidity when less then 99% Is not water. Therefore not wet. Except to people and horses.

Your not keeping horses in sweater boxes are you????

Feeling Dry or moist in humans(and horses) is not the same, You sweat(so do horses) When its humid, the air cannot take up much sweat, so you feel, icky or less cool. hahahahahahahaha

In dry air, the air absorbs water off your skin quickly, and that cools you.

Its like when its 119F, I was in that a few weeks ago. Folks say, its a dry heat and feels like 111F, hahahahahahahaha its still how as heck.

Its not about the ground, its what they live in, wild or captivity. And by the way, 7 years, hmmmmmmmmm been at this breeding snakes stuff for 49 years, remember, that is captive breeding for that long.

The point is, your arguing based on theory and heresay, NOT THAT ITS WRONG, its not your experience. That will come.

Once you become successful, then I recommend testing this, so you will understand based on your own work. I have a million times with a million species.

I do take a lot from the field, and one key lesson is, Dry and humid. The burrows they seek are Dry, but percolate humidity from a large base. If you flipped rocks or AC to find snakes, including hognose, as soon as it becomes dry under those objects, the snakes do not use them. If its humid, and sealed, they use them. A simple lesson.

In the east when its humid, AC can be open to the air, its humid outside, but here in the desert, once the seal is broken, the Cover becomes useless and in the ground they go.

Again, your judging humidity based on animals that sweat, humans and horses. Reptiles do not sweat, so its nothing to them. Best wishes

"The point is, your arguing based on theory and heresay, NOT THAT ITS WRONG, its not your experience. That will come. Once you become successful, then I recommend testing this, so you will understand based on your own work. I have a million times with a million species."

Based on theory and hearsay? Bull Shi#! You're full of it! I kept two 8 footers alive and well in 100 heat during summer and with temps in the 20's during winter all above ground in a shed, with nothing more than a/c and heaters. I know alot about temps and humidity!

Successful? Hell yes I was successful, they lived and prospered, they have family's of their own now...maybe

I have a feeling I know why people don't want to speak out in this *pig forum now. Your condescending attitude! I come on here to learn and share all you do is spread the same ole thing over and over and over and over again! Where are the solutions Frank? What would you do Frank? What has Frank done in the past? We aren't in the Field Frank! We are keeping ours in cages Frank! You keep stating in the field in the field, do you not get it? You may be in the field Frank, most of us others aren't! So with that Frank it's over! You keep spreading your gospel you go old man! From this point on with me at least you're dead to me! Take your experience, condescending ways and anything else that spurts out of you and be happy! Just not going to be discussing anything further with you! IMO you're killing this forum! I may be new to this forum but it doesn't take long before you see the trend of responses from you are all the same. So with that Frank it's at a end! Hopefully there is RP in the rafters that is loose in your future to stop the dribble. bye Frank!

Again someone has another point of view and folks, go crazy.

In this case, its important. This nice person from HK has a problem. We should try to offer some help.

Many years ago, I had his problem, I kept my snakes too hot on a consistent basis and I had flagellated protozoa problems. So again, I am experienced in this area. I learned to prevent the problem.

Try looking up what condescending means, I only asked you questions. A discussion with different points of view in not condescending. This a discussion board, to not agree is NORMAL and what the forum is about.

To me, you bringing up condescending or attacking me personally, is a cop out. Its kinda like a hognose bluffing, got no where else to go so you attack.

I have been nothing but respectful to you. So your my friend as long as we agree, but the second I do not agree with you, you go nuts, your no friend.

There are a lot of people on this forum, I do not agree with, and some I really agree with, it has nothing to do with whos better or worse, or being better/superior or not, or friends or not. Good luck

oh..my hog!!!!

you 2 make me so sorry to see you are in argument for my post~!!!
i think both of you are experienced hogs keeper, and i DO know that your hogs should be happy to your environment provided~!
Just different point of view...no angry~!!!

for me, i just know the RH level in the cage should be lower it down...in order to make hogs happy and like in wild..am i correct?!

but in HK, the weather here is wet and hot in summer; wet and cold in winter...so when i walk in the street in summer, i believe it is so hot and sweat a lot...however, in winter, when i go to street, i feel extremely cold, even the temps is not lower than 50F, because the air humidity is still high, i breathe in wet air..make me even cooler~!!!

so i would like to design my cabinet like what i draw...
heat pad should be the key to help the cage's humid evaporate...

do you think such design works?!

But give me a favor...No argument anymore...PLEASE!
I Do know that you 2 are both warm-hearted to help me, i am treasure and appreciated!!!!

so don't make me feel sorry~ My Two big brother!!!
Best wish~

Hello, I don't know how difficult this would be for your cabinet, but if you are having a humidity problem, try using a basking lamp instead of the heating pad...it will definitely help dry up the snake's enclosure more efficiently...

You can also stack different substrates on top of each other so the hognose can go through "layers" of humidity.

The fan is a great idea, just make sure it is not hitting your snakes directly! Good luck.
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

thanks~

i want to ask the basking lamp,
which is a bulb? or a long light??

Please do not feel bad about the fighting, it will always happen when people are talking about the care of children and animals. These folks are all good guys but have differing opinions.

The heat lamp would be a small bulb. You need not use a dome fixture; for the cabinet I think you could probably mount it in such a way to save space and keep the snakes from burning themselves (wire cage?). You will still want to have it on a thermostat or at least a dimmer of some sort. Combined with the fan, I think your hognose will be quite happy. I really hope you can figure out what's going on with them and treat it so you don't lose any more.
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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

I still think the actual cause is being missed as to what is causing your problem.

Also, about the infighting on this or any forum. Its going to happen when someone has an opinion and stands by it.

The TRUTH is, you need to determine what the problem is, or you cannot fix it. Any Vet can do a fecal, they have an online data base to help them. Even if you just took some feces to the vet.

As mentioned, the symptoms are telling, they indicate a parasite problem.

Now lets look at the animals, are they wild caught, no, as you said they are albino and hets. So they are not going to have natural occurring parasites from nature. Unless you have been feeding them local toads and such. So it has to be something prevalent in the environment,

You started by talking about flagel, which is a product to cure, Flagelated protozoas, which is common and everywhere. And Natural to the animal.

Hognose or any reptile only become compromised by this and most other parasites when they are stressed and become immune supressed.

The two approaches taken on this forum, as to what caused this stress are,
1. humidity
2. heat. as in too much heat.

Lets look at The symptoms of each.

1. Humidity, normally causes water blisters and rapid shedding, then fungal infections.

2. Heat,(to much) Or wrong temps, causes the animal to stop or hinder the immune system, which commonly leads to flagellated protozoa infections or blooms. 1. flagellate protozoan - a usually nonphotosynthetic free-living protozoan with whiplike appendages; some are pathogens of humans and other animals.

This infection damages the walls of the intestinal track and the reproductive track. Enough damage and the patient becomes non reproductive and or dies. End of part 1

Of course there could be other causes. But this is based on what you tell us. As there is not animal or even pictures to help with a more accurate recommendation.

Humidity, 70% RH is great for reptiles and hognose. You can tell when its to humid in a cage, if mold grows in the cage, you know, on any biological matter. Then increase ventilation. If no mold is growing in the cage, there will be no problem from humidity.

Also, you talk about how hot it is, yet you use a heat pad. If your room temps are 85% you have no need for a heat pad of any kind. If your using the heat pad for winter, please turn them off in the summer.

Your design appears to me, to be something that complicates something simple. Colubrids snakes are as simple as you can get, which is why they are popular. In your case, you don't need fans or heaters, all you need is a box to hold them in and the ability to adjust ventilation when required.

About water, wild hogs, do not have drinking water for 80% of the year, which is why they CHOOSE to live in high humidity. They obtain their water from their food, and do everything they can to prevent water loss. An average hognose on my study site, may come to the surface and expose itself to open air, maybe 30 hours a YEAR. Most likely less.

Again, Heat, snakes including hognose, use a wide range of temperatures. Not one temp, their biology is based on that. To speed up their metabolism and slow down their metabolism when needed(required) Keeping them at one temp or within a few degrees is UNNATURAL to them. Which means, if you take away their natural abilities, it then becomes your responsibility to provide the right temps at the right time.

So the next step, before you waste time and energy with yout design is, provide pictures of the snakes and cages. Which may help you a lot oh and your hognose.

So please help us help you and offer more information. Best wishes and have a great day.

Not aimed toward anybody in particular.

The way I see it, FR is the only person here that consistently attempts to engage in conversation when a question is asked.

Why is he scaring other folks away from answering Qs?

If you guys have a differing opinion, excellent! I love it when Troy, Gregg, DISCERN, RG, DMong and the rest actually come on here to help people. I'm aware of there being a fallout before FR even wandered over here, which dried this place up for a while, but, if you've something to contribute, take the higher road and please answer these folks. (You're kinda letting him win if you don't ) Ignore whoever is annoying you.

Is there an ignore function here on the forums or.....?

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You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?

Go for it.

The way I see it, FR is the only person here that consistently attempts to engage in conversation when a question is asked.

Bully for him. Honestly, who really cares how consistent FR is in engaging in conversation? All that matters is the quality and thoughtfulness of the reply. In FR's case, well, that is highly debatable depending on the individuals you ask. All that really matters though is whether or not the OP gets anything out of what any of us have to say here regardless of how any of us feel about each other.

Why is he scaring other folks away from answering Qs?

You honestly think FR has that kind of power? Trust me, he doesn't. People aren't afraid of him nor his condescensing ignorance towards others. If we have something to relevant to say or add to a conversation, we will, we always do. Some have just been burned out by the constant bullying and badgering that FR likes to engage in, it's not that they are scared, they are just choosing the path of least resistance, so they choose to read instead of participate until they really have something relevant to say rather than just conjectural rambling.

"If one's words are not better than silence, one should keep silent.- Kwai Chang Caine

In this particular thread, for myself, I make no claims of being a vet nor having experienced what the OP is experiencing, so I really have next to nothing to offer. Sure, there's about a dozen relevant questions that I could ask in trying to help him, but at the end of the day, my advice would be purely conjectural. I think that the advice given by Mike Bodner is the most sound, go to the vet and get some tests done. That will help narrow down what exactly it is the OP is dealing with. In my mind, it's either one of two things, he's either getting/introducing diseased animals into his collection whether that's through newly added snakes or by food source (such as live frogs or lizards), or it's a purely environmental/husbandry issue that is causing this.

If you guys have a differing opinion, excellent! I love it when Troy, Gregg, DISCERN, RG, DMong and the rest actually come on here to help people.

And that's really the thing isn't it? We all have differences of opinions however big or small they are. But here's the truth of the matter, we actually agree on more things than we don't whether that is displayed on the forum or in private. I regularly communicate outside of this forum with the first 3 people you mentioned (myself of course excluded ) and husbandry is usually one of the main topics we like to discuss as we all like to share and learn from each other's experiences.

Sure, I enjoy studying and learning about genetics, whether it's in relation to the color morphs or even when attributed to actual physical characteristics, but it's not the only thing I am interested in with hognose as anybody who actually knows me and talks with me will attest to. It's just one of the many interesting facets of this hobby.

If someone here asks a question related to genetics, then of course, that's how my answer is going to be fashioned, an answer about genetics as much as I understand about the topic based on my studies. If someone asks about husbandry issues, then I can offer my own advice based on my own actual experiences that work for me even though others might do things totally different and have totally different experiences.

And that's the thing, many of us here do different things and have different experiences, and yet that doesn't mean any of us are actually doing anything wrong if our animals are thriving. All it means is that we are individuals that do things as best in our abilities so that we can try to accommodate the animals we've entertained keeping. I don't think most people get into a hobby such as this with the intention of failing, especially when dealing with expensive morphs, there's just too much at stake and at the end, who wants to waste the time, energy and money?

I'm aware of there being a fallout before FR even wandered over here, which dried this place up for a while...

That's right, that was long before FR was patronizing (see how that works both ways?) this particular sub-forum. The only difference between then and now is the lesser amount of active participants and of course who the current antagonist is.

Trust me, there's still a ton of activity going on regarding hognose on the net, it's just not here due to a combination of things some of which has to do with FR, but the majority of it has to do with the popularity of social media and the archaic and sometimes confusing and frustrating structure of the KS forum.

...if you've something to contribute, take the higher road and please answer these folks.

I'll reiterate, if people have something relevant to say, they will. Most of these types of problems can be so complex, that some of us are reluctant to give any advice in the chance that it might be more problematic giving ignorant advice than not giving any advice at all.

(You're kinda letting him win if you don't ) Ignore whoever is annoying you.

Again, there is no "winning" or "losing" here unless you let the condescending ignorant words of a single individual bother you, something that I've learned to ignore. And yours is actually the right advice, ignore whoever is bothering you regardless of what they say to try to bait you into another pissing match, it just isn't worth it and the only winner in that game is the baiter.

"Hungry goes the fisherman when the fish are all laughing at the worm on his hook!" - me

Is there an ignore function here on the forums or.....?

Wouldn't that be nice!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Howdy Troy!

I don't think ANYBODY has that kind of power. But when I see certain folks shying away from answering, it seems like a lost battle of sorts? Some folks only respond to husbandry Qs, others breeding Qs, others genetic Qs...

"Burnout" I think is it. Just sort of sad to see some folks show up to show off their breeding results and nothing else. Believe me, I love to see baby hogs. I just wish there was more conversation going on (without fighting or at least agreeing to disagree?!)

If more folks would engage the person posing the question, this forum would thrive and wouldn't be such a freak show. I love your quote BTW (more people around here should refer to it?!)

I agree KS is losing popularity, maybe that's where the whole problem lies. If you asked a basic husbandry Q on a different forum, everybody crawls out of the woodwork to answer. Here...I refuse to answer and be banned. But I still love KS and always visit.

Hope you did not take offense to my post; I actually meant the direct opposite. Have a good weekend!
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"You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?"

"Go for it."

I got a few ball pythons and a metri f***ton of colubrids.

Here...I refuse to answer and be banned.

I meant ELABORATE on the status of KS, not about answering Qs...carry on! (tired)
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"You ever talk to me like that again...and I'll turn your balls into earrings. Understand?"

"Go for it."

I got a few ball pythons and a metric f***ton of colubrids.

Howdy Troy!

Howdy howdy!

Hope you did not take offense to my post; I actually meant the direct opposite.

No, no offense taken at all. In fact, I understood and wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment and lament what this forum used to be and what it could be unlike what it is today which is basically a ghost town of information turned into a showcase for one's personal collection. No, I am with you 100%!

I don't think ANYBODY has that kind of power. But when I see certain folks shying away from answering, it seems like a lost battle of sorts?

I agree, it is a lost battle. There's a war going on in one person's head that leaks out here on the forum of which nobody wants to fall victim to. Unfortunately, people want to avoid any negativity at all costs, so the forum and it's residents suffer and could eventually end up a complete ghost town before too long.

Some folks only respond to husbandry Qs, others breeding Qs, others genetic Qs...

Well, I think people usually answer things they can relate to and offer relevant information on. If you only keep a few animals and do not engage in breeding, then your experiences are usually limited to husbandry in regards to what you've learned along the way that has either worked or not in successfullly maintaining your animals. For those that do breed, genetics is a typical accompaniment although that doesn't necessarily mean just because you successfully breed animals that you have a firm grasp of genetics, nor it is a requisite to successful breeding unless of course you are dealing in different morphs and whatnot. But people in general focus on either what their strengths are or where their interest lies.

Like with me, for the dozen or so people that I've communicated privately with this year, I get asked a lot about my understanding of genetics, but the conversations almost always go back to discussions on husbandry and the differences of what we do and experience. But here on the forum, it's just a different atmosphere and writing on forums can be more limiting than actual vocal conversation, especially for people who don't like to sit at a keyboard for an hour typing, unlike me.

"Burnout" I think is it. Just sort of sad to see some folks show up to show off their breeding results and nothing else. Believe me, I love to see baby hogs. I just wish there was more conversation going on (without fighting or at least agreeing to disagree?!)

The truth is, that's really how it is everywhere these days, people just showing off what they've hatched or have in their collection. Yes, there's conversation about husbandry and such, but a lot of it is just the same ignorant mythology being vomited by those that have little to no experience yet feel empowered through their keyboard to regurgitate what they truly don't know or understand. So sometimes, I'm almost glad that people just post pictures, it evades the never ending frustration that goes along with those of us that try to interject truth from falsity.

If more folks would engage the person posing the question, this forum would thrive and wouldn't be such a freak show.

Again, that's one of the problems caused by a single individual that is always eager to post something, relevant or not, but also taking these indirect pot shots at everybody else whether or not it's even relevant to the OP's original query. When there is that kind of passive-aggressive negativity, it wards off a lot of people, and maybe that's the exact intention of the person that does this, to keep others away so they can be the center of attention.

I love your quote BTW (more people around here should refer to it?!)

Thanks.

I agree KS is losing popularity, maybe that's where the whole problem lies. If you asked a basic husbandry Q on a different forum, everybody crawls out of the woodwork to answer.

But again, a lot of those conversations are riddled with ignorance, mythology and ego, they are just far more active but also more frustrating. To be honest, I'm a part of this one social media site that gets 10-50 posts a day, but there's so much BS being said there, that after engaging with a few people that were very immature and hostile, I basically gave up even wasting my time. So, it's really going to be the same everywhere, people are going to be active where they feel comfortable and where the least amount of resistance is. If all of us spent all our waking hours dispelling the ignorance vomited by these newcomers, they'd all leave and find somewhere else where they can be happy chanting whatever nonsensical drivel they want.

For example, one girl, who doesn't even own a single hog, was telling everybody that hogs were non-venomous and totally harmless. I told her she was completely wrong and then showed her basically a diary with pictures of a bite that I endured from a 20 gram male that lasted only a couple of minutes but the effects of that bite lasted 5 days and cause swelling from the finger that he bit all the way up to my elbow with intense swelling, redness, burning and lack of movement in several of my digits. This of course pissed her off, she said some smart ass stuff and then deleted all of her posts.

One breeder mentioned that he bred 2 het Amel hogs and out of 6 or 8 eggs, didn't produce a single Amel. So, this one guy starts mouthing off that the breeder got screwed because his hets were now "proven" to not be hets simply because the odds didn't pan out. When I informed him that although it's poor odds to not have produced an Amel, that it was entirely possible. Again, he called me names, said all sorts of ignorant crap and then left.

After several more instances of that kind of ignorance and abuse, I gave up wasting my time there even though it's by far the most active place online that I know of in regards to hognose stuff. I don't even visit it anymore to even see all of the cool pictures people are still posting, I just no longer care.

If all of those people flocked here, there'd still be a lot of negativity and fighting, it'd just be en masse and 1000x worse. So I'm not really sure which is worse at this point in time, the quietness of this forum or the chaos of the other one.

It's all good though. I've met a lot of interesting and great people for the years I've spent here, so it's not been a complete waste of time at all!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Ditto!

One of the most elegantly posted threads I've seen lately!

I agree completely with what your saying. I guess it's burn out with older keepers. It's new to me and I find talking about them fun. Seeing babies is great....The FB ones are full of great photos and such. Just see a few things here.

Being attacked just turns me off to such things...I don't mind debating or even being proven wrong...just the style of wording in itself is enough to dissuade me from further interaction with said individuals. Such is life, we all run into people that we have a disdain for....so it's better for me at least to just move on! Simply put, I just don't respond to dead people! I guess I don't have the Bruce Willis gift

Thank you and your so right, Whats odd to me is, Why is it about right or wrong, its a discussion board, that means, we offer a point of view. Its not about believing what you read.

I am stuck in limbo(in between) In between the hobbyist world and the scientific world. and I disturb both. To me they are or should be the same. Behaviorally, naturalistic observation, includes both. Only in biology is captivity dismissed, any case, that war has nothing to do with the animals, its also about people.

In this case, if I say something, like in science, you must offer something to back up what you say. In many cases, that is taken as condescending.

Myself, I will not take anything someone says as valuable, unless they can show me, the important stuff, how they came up with whatever they said. I never take it about a persons better or worse. Compared to nature, we are all worse. Sorry, thanks again.

Theres a problem and its not me, its you. You claim to be nice and thoughtful. yet, this is the beginning of your post.You honestly think FR has that kind of power? Trust me, he doesn't. People aren't afraid of him nor his condescensing ignorance towards others. If we have something to relevant to say or add to a conversation,
The point is, who decides whats revelent, in this case, its you. Interesting huh. Why is it you??????????

To me, your p-watering on a pole, that is, you want to maintain your territory. Which is behaviorally normal.

But I expressed, I am not interested in your territory. I am interesting in Hogs, and their nature and their wellbeing. Even to a tiny degree, their genetics. And I will bring something to the table in this area. end of part one.

The actual point is, we will not communicate as we have totally different levels of experience. I am a reptile person with many many decades more experience then you. You may be nice and intelligent, but you seem to "know" what you read(academic approach). Not "know" from the animals you keep. Or at least only know 7 years worth.

If you look at past posts, anytime some one asked about a snake problem, take, egg binding, or other problem, you answer, well it just happens sometimes etc etc. But when it comes to genetics, your the king of academic information(not that its wrong or bad) When you talk to others about genetics, your very condescending. you, know, your wrong, its like this(I read it)

The problem is simple, colubrid husbandry was developed and perfected decades ago. All you have to do is follow a very basic steps. So that's what you do, and you take your interest to genetics, in your case, the snakes are a necessary byproduct. I never said there is anything wrong with that, Evolutionary bio students do not have to love fruit flys(a base for genetic studies)

As I say all the time, I am about the snakes. All about the snakes, means a couple of things, first, its not about the people personally. As I do not know you in the least.

In this case, I am spending day after day, in the field looking at, what are hognose? what do they do? why are they doing it etc. I come back from that and see tiny shoeboxes, of course its not going to match up.
Forgive me for that. We do not come from the same background.

Heres the kicker, you want to voice your opinion/experience, but then, you really need to let me voice mine.
Those two different areas, do not need to oppose, look at Gregg and my conversations. They can and do blend.
In your case, you don't want it to, and for your own reasons. I have to wonder, I am not condescending to Gregg and I am to you. What's the difference?????

ABout results, hmmmmmmmm several here are already SEEING the results of a MORE approach to nesting. And in such a short time.

You can take any post one here and pick out such things like condescending, or all those things you so often point out.

The question is, why, why do you do that and not look into what is IMPORTANT.

As always, none of us are meant for everyone, I will help who I can, those that want help. What you do is yours to do. I am here. Take it or leave it. I do not intentionally bust peoples chops, but if you do that to me, I will return the favor. I will learn from that you did and turn it on you. Thanks

Bloody smelly feces is a problem with some kind of internal parasite most likely. You may just be passing the problem from one hog to the next. Don't buy anymore until you get a handle on this. You need to take fecal samples to a vet to identify the parasite. Only then can he prescribe the proper medication to treat the problem. Even dog/cat vets can usually identify internal parasites of snakes. Your gone to get a hundred different answers on these forums. A microscope is needed to tell anything. Hope this helps. Mike
Mike Bodner's Thayeri

Hes actually right, any vet can do a fecal and determine if its Flagelated protozoas or some other parasite.

If you cannot find a vet, then try to offer lower temps at night, mid seventies would work. Best wishes

Thanks to Mike and FR, i will try to follow the instruction you 2 provided and see whether the situation will become better~!!!!

I sure hope this helps, hognose are wonderful snakes. Best wishes

First you need to determine exactly what sort of parasite is causing this. Is it pinworms? Coccidia? Giardia? Or Cryptosporidium?

Touch wood...

I will try to follow the instruction in case my snakes have problems again...get their feces specimen, go to vet and check the problem...

Get it!!!