Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've gotten an Albino California King female and a Thayers King male. He is a Buckskin Split Saddle. I know how you can get almost anything when breeding a Thayers, but what is you guess for putting these two together.

Junk hybrids - don't do it.

Tim

>>Junk hybrids - don't do it.

i was gonna say a fat cal king. but that works too. haha.
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westmextricolors.wix.com/west1

i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Nothing good. Breed 2 pure bred Thayeri together and you'll get prettier snakes than the hybrid combo you mentioned.

Mike Bodner's Thayeri

You will get mutts and nobody will want them for the most part.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

It's actually more like what will the HOBBY get from that point on if you do that careless hybrid breeding.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

You will get a THING, I did that cross several years ago, and have produced 2nd generation.

To tell you the true, the first generation hybrids looked like pine snakes with a Cal king attitude.

One and only one of the second generation Things, came out incredible. It was like a giant black and while super alterna.

I am waiting for eggs to hatch now.

And the others are right, you cannot beat a pure thayeri for the ability to produce lookers, but they are small, THINGS get bigger.

Do want you want, there is nothing pure(phenotypic) about the thayeri being produced in the trade. They are nothing like the natural occurring Thayers, I know, been there done that. Most do not pass the poop test, they don't look like, smell like, feel like or taste like a natural occurring thaveri, so they are't .Cheers

Thanks for all your personal ideas on this. Can't wait to see what happens. There is nothing "pure" in the snake hobby. Hets are everywhere and nobody knows what they are. So whatever I get will fit right in. There is a huge market for unusual looking snakes.

Here is someones opinion.

"I happen to be a geneticist in real life as well as a snake breeding hobbyist, so I can answer! assuming the thayer's is just a regular thayer's with no albino parents, then 100% of the offspring you get from crossing the thayer's to my albino will be het for albino. they will probably all look fairly identical to each other, as that is what happens in the first generation of a cross like this. I'm not sure what the scale pattern will be like though: that could be fun to find out!

then if you breed the offspring to each other, you get 25% albino, 50% het for albino, 25% normal. and the patterns will be something like 25% cal king, 25% thayer's king, and 50% similar to the parents. if you breed the het for albino offspring to an albino, then you get 50% albino offspring.

so yeah it will be 3 years till you see the really cool combos, but the first generation will be interesitng too as you don't know what they'll look like. I think the albino thayer's will be really cool!"

The so-called "albino" thayeri the guy refers to is a thayeri x amel L.ruthveni mutt too. It's obvious from his comments that he doesn't care about just tossing any ol' pair of snakes together. This is sad to see, but not surprising in the least. Looks like you are going to follow through with the mutt breeding anyway though. So all of the future breedings your offspring and their offspring's offspring ever make from then on will muddy-up countless other bloodlines (of whatever) in the general hobby as they are sold and bred by others.

Great stuff!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

"mutt" is a bit of a misnomer and derogertory term. Kinda pre conceives the idea they are bad or ugly. when in fact most dogs are all mutts.

I guess you could add the terms "powerfeeding" and bonding and brumation ect to your THF education.
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

I get a laugh every time someone says "mutt".

That is funny, cross two species of snakes and get a DOG!!!!!!!

Whats even funnier is, all dog breeds are mutts by this type of definition. There is not such animal as a pure dog. folks aren't keeping Cape hunting dogs, that would be cool

Do you really think it's not completely "muddied-up" now !?!? Yes I will go on with my project because I want to and many others will enjoy the results. As for "pure" I doubt 50% of what is out there now is "pure".

Your biggest problem is the king eating the thayeri. Don't ask, how mine came about. It wasn't pretty! Cheers

I have been giving that a lot of thought.

I hate to disagree with you, but having done this exact cross. The first generation, were all different, as was the second. Nove looked like either parent.

Both founders were somewhat normal, the male was a black and yellow slightly aberrant newporter type. The female was a milksnake phase. The most common color phase was a Greeri type pattern on a much bigger snake.

Your genetic prediction is for simple recessive, the problem is, color and pattern and other characters are not recessives.

What happens is based on your unique genepool, except the albino part. Also, The albino gene in the kingsnake is most likely different then the albino gene in the Thayeri/ruthenveni cross.

I founded the albino kings, a very long time ago, and would friends and a field partner, to the person who founded the albino Ruthies.(Bill G.) and friends to the person who founded the albino thayeri(Steve O.)

Lastly, I also pioneered the montane king hybrid area, and like Bluerosy stated. They sold like hotcakes, even to those to complain like little babies. They would whine and whine, then call me and buy some.

Heres the interesting part, some here, WHINE like its going to ruin the world. The problem is, these crosses have been around longer then those who are complaining. The world is already ruined. Much like you stated, pure is a concept that is not in the reality of snake keeping.

A hybrid IS, any crossing of genetic material, that is different to the original. Names such as Variable king, are simply made up names, such as what is done with morphs.

The reality is, "thayeri" are montane kings the occur in scattered populations thru out a series of mountain ranges that are isolated from eachother. The original captive breedings were from different populations, so in FACT, the captive thayeri, are indeed hybrids to start with. End part 1

The name thayeri is also simply a name made up from ONE individual. Actually the first individual was called, "Leonis" Then as more individuals popped up in N.L., they were different.

As it turns out, like many Mexican montane kings in this family, they have a "blairs phase"(wide red bands), a Alterna phase(no red bands), and a inbetween phase(medium red bands), which is dubbed "thayeri"

But, each population is also unique and different. Also of note, the original description was based on animals from the east side of the divide. All the animals in captivity came from the west side. The only reason "Thayeri" was used was it was the closer then any other montane king. Those animals actually keyed out as Mex Mex, with different colors.

All that is mentioned to point out, the PURE they are talking about, is not so pure to start with. Those worried about this mucking up the waters are better off washing off their boots, as the waters are already mucked up. Best wishes and good luck

P.S. I also collected the first black thayeri and was first to produce them as well.

Thank You !

Sure there's phenotyical and relatively slight genetic differences between thayeri populations... of course! But they are still more like each other than they are to another species.

It doesn't help anything to say that since there are slight differences within a species it's of no use defining that species and keeping it pure in captivity, subjective to what one's definition of purity. That has a use and it is to preserve natural variations and prevent a mishmashed monoculture that would untimately result in just a few types, ie big and little misc. tricolor, botched, striped and banded whatsits.

There's nothing wrong with hybrids if that's what you like but hybrid keepers would also do well to keep in mind that even hybrids must start with "pure" snakes if they are to have any kind of direction.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Very interesting, thank you.

" There is nothing "pure" in the snake hobby."

Well, the lines that are not " pure " anymore, resulted from individuals such as yourself who simply did not care more about the hobby as a whole, in regards to lineages, nor the animals.

Yes, there are pure snakes in this hobby. To say that nothing is pure is pure ignorance, and there are tainted lines as well, which will be the fruit of your personal boredom. If you realize that you are only doing this because you are seeking a particular " excitement " and " feeling ", from this attractive abyss called The Unknown, then at least you will be honest about causing pollution and biological perversion in this hobby.

Life is short. Why waste it helping to pollute pure snake lines that others in this hobby worked hard to maintain? Don't you think your time should be better spent doing something constructive instead of doing something because it " possibly " may look different?

Just my two cents.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

Wow thats a lot of big words. I will go ahead with the project and not feel bad about it for the exact reason you said, the lines are not pure now anyway. Damage, if thats what you want to really call it, has been done already. I'm not doing anything wrong.

In your post to me, you said:

" The lines are not pure now anyways. "

And now, in your post to Tim Spuckler, you said:

" I have to say, yes there are pure snakes in the hobby and you may be an owner ".

So, which is it?

See, we all know what you are doing. You know you are mucking up pure lines, and you play ignorant to one post, yet are somewhat honest in another. You can't even keep a straight answer! That rules.

So, do you realize how hypocritical you sound with your hybrid dogma? You say that people who like pure snakes are in the minority? Honey, pure snakes are what this hobby not only started from, but consist more of, from a numbers standpoint!!

You really are new to this, aren't you?

But that is all beside the point.

You just contradicted yourself entirely, which explains your fascination with appeasing others to begin with. You constantly are saying and talking about what is " popular " and " what people want ", in regards to your hybrid creation. Why is that? What are you fascinated with what others like? Do you apply this to other areas of your life? Do you do what others want you to do? Are you a huge conformist?

How about trying to be original?

Seriously, and again, your attitude only reeks of these three things:

1. You will do what feels good, hence your experiment.
2. You do not care about other herpers, who down the road, will obtain somewhat some of these hybrids, and ruin their breeding plans.
3. You don't care about the animals themselves. Again, what feels good to you, and your constant seeking of approval from others, in this dilemma that ensnares your non-scientific view of snakes.

Take care. That is all I have to say.
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Genesis 1:1

God you may be the most insecure person I've ever known. I am going to get two more of the same and do a double breeding to get twice the beautiful little mutts, so I can make everybody happy. I really will do a double batch now, just because of you. Hope you get one, one day.

LOLOLOL!
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

As a so called purist myself I see nothing wrong with doing your project. That said, if all were to take such a careless approach to purity(not your project but rather your definition of purity) there would eventually be no pure snakes with which to create fantastic(I'm not being sarcastic I really do mean fantastic) hybrids. That said, I refuse to believe that anyone with a modicum of experience at breeding snakes here really doesn't believe there's such a thing as a pure snake... it's just wordplay to say that.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

GREAT point !

"There is nothing "pure" in the snake hobby."

Not true at all. I work with several types of wild-caught locality animals and so do many other people.

Tim

Third Eye Herp

Amen

Your not the hobby. Your you. and good on you. But if you purchased a king that looks exactly like that one, From a pet shop(which is most common in the hobby) you would have no idea where it came from or what produced it. It would have most likely come from a giant colubrid factory that does not care about local, and do care about individuals that produce with limited resources and sell. Those folks are dealing with the general public and the public gets tired of whatever normal is and want something different. The general public does not care about local, or pure or whatever. And there are lots of them, and few of you.

ALso the reality is, when you sell off your offspring, or trade them(excess them off) most will not be line bred, they will grow tired of one color morph, and want to mix it up some. That is the simple reality and the "Trade or hobby".

True !!!

amen FR

as ALWAYS the voice of reason.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

In the "snake hobby" you have no way of telling what is pure and what is not. There are things the eye can not see.

False again. It is the usual "hybrid justification" that since you cannot prove "purity" why not make hybrids. We've heard it all before. You are not going to covert the opposing view to your way of thinking.

Since there is so little interest in "mutts" hybrid breeders try to tear down other breeders' "pure" projects in order to achieve "make believe" legitimacy.

Like I said earlier there are plenty of people working with lines of wild-caught snakes.

One of the biggest problems I have with hybrids isn't the snakes themselves, but rather the breeders - who are more often than not dishonest. And you've illustrated that point well in your posts.

Tim

One of the biggest problems I have with hybrids isn't the snakes themselves, but rather the breeders - who are more often than not dishonest.

yeah tim, like your bullpine hybrids you try and sell off as pure northerns. what a hypocrite.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Mixing pines with bulls. I've been out of keeping for a while now and just found out people have been mixing bull locales. But bulls with pines?? I'm sick.

Northerns were my first pituophis actually my second type aside from some everglade's rats. Since this is a kingsnake forum, I will add my third type of snake were Brooksi. Mind you this was in the 60's. Still never was into mixing and all the morphs but thats what makes a hobby, change.

There were those who started in the field and others who started with shows. I would believe today, in my opinion, they are now all for show. Just like the Koi in our pond.

The Koi is an excellent example of demand for something that is not pure!!!

Whats funny about this is, I never had problems buying KOI looking for the individuals that stood out from the norm. Yet was so picky about herps. I no longer focus on locale like I did. I enjoy the field mind you but not when I come across a CA king in a Florida state forest.

Here on out, Northern Pines for example. Care less if they are Barrens or not. If they are super contrasting B/W beasts, then they are mine. Bullsnake blood in them may still get me though LOL.

its been going on forever. its kinda sad when these crosses are marketed as pure types but a true snaker can tell by looking imho.
if you know then you can easily spy the crosses case in point look a tspucklers "pines" anyone with a grasp of pituophis can see whats what, another give away is the ones up preaching about purity are the ones guilty like mongs Hondurans its plain to see if one just looks.

here are 50/50 n.pine and Co. bulls I did a few years back.
of course I marketed them as crosses.

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I know it has. I really never gave it any mind until I took to acquiring LA pines. It was actually that search that moved me to stop keeping and turn to only field obervations. I will keep again but only as a business. Retirement stuff. Think I'm going to try to cross ball pythons with carpets and bloods if possible. Some long reach like that anyway so my name will live on in infamy but with monetary satisfaction.

Those pieces of crap have plenty of yellow in them and do not look like my Black and White Northerns at all. You are a liar Thomas Davis. You have no proof whatsoever that my Northern Pine Snakes are hybrids.

How have based your "proof" on an idiotic, inaccurate observation. You are a liar and have slanderd my name and reputation.

Tim

Third Eye Herp

Thats a very nice Northern and I have seen many.

Very nice Northern Pine. I'm a Lampro guy so I'm not too experienced with Pits but I see nothing in that snake that would indicate Bull or cross of any kind. I think it has a bit lower blotch count than most wild Northerns but the colors and the shape/progression of the blotches is correct for Northern Pine IMHO. The lower band count is easily accounted for by selective breeding and is probably even sometimes seen in wild specimens as well.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

its plain to see http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=2013117,2013117 on the pit forum.
blatantly obvious imho

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Beautiful snakes on your website.

What features are you talking about? The eyestripe? I googled Northern Pines and found a pic of a presumably wild baby on a Pine Barrens preservation site with an eyestripe and all the adults I googled had faded eyestripes. As far as the blotches they are shaped right for Pine(with th exception of one obviously abberrant baby that is even farther away from Bull) and Bulls have higher blotch counts so I tend to think a lower blotch count is the opposite of indicative for Bull. Of course colr is totally correct with no yellow in the backround and no fading in the interior of the blotches. I am not seeing any Bull.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

"
yeah tim, like your bullpine hybrids you try and sell off as pure northerns. what a hypocrite. "

Son,

Now, why would you go off and lie like that?

You know better. You really do.

Let me ask: Where is your evidence that Tim is selling hybrid pits?
Any other answer you offer that is not a direct and precise answer, will only show Thomas, that you are lying. You know better.

Time to grow up. My only post to you.
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Genesis 1:1

we can discuss this the next time we see each other billy, in the meantime look at my n.pineXbull crosses and then at tims "pines" ocular stripes, head shape, body shape, saddles just look.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yours look nothing like Tim's. I do applaud you for honestly representing your snakes but I see no evidence for your claims regarding Tim's Northern Pines.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Thomas Davis, what evidence do you have that Tim Spuckler crossed his pits? Pretty mean-spirited of you to just throw that accusation out there with nothing to back it up. Seems as though you have a grudge due to your differences on hybridization issues and you are taking easy cheap shots.

think what you want tbrophy I really don't care.
its real simple
perhaps too simple for you.
look at my n.pineXbull crosses THEN look at spucklers "pines"
real simple

,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yes, this could be considered a bad accusation but Tom does not appear to be hiding this thought from Tim. There is always that what if?? It's much better than all the chatter some have behind the scenes with others that causes the trouble. I'm sure if Tim has issue with this he'll speak up as most anyone else I'm sure would.

Tom, BTW, do you produce any pure pines?

Thomas you are a liar with no proof. Just what I'd expect out of a hybrid breeder like you. You can provide no evidence whatsoever that my Northern Pines are hybrids. You are a liar.

Tim

You are a liar Thomas. You have no idea where my breeding stock comes from. My Northern Pines are pure. You have lied before on these forums and you are lying again - and that's just what I've expect out of you...a lying hybrid breeder.

>>You are a liar Thomas. You have no idea where my breeding stock comes from. My Northern Pines are pure. You have lied before on these forums and you are lying again - and that's just what I've expect out of you...a lying hybrid breeder.

this is why we're on facebook. it's civil and there are great discussions all the time and the pictures never stop coming in.

you should join jorge, jimmy, and diego's discussion groups.

pm me if you'd like the addresses.
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westmextricolors.wix.com/west1

i work with tri-colored west mexican lampropeltis. some morph, some hobby, and some locale.

everyone is entitled to their options, but no one's opinion will ever change how i feel about the snakes i keep and breed.

Theres that mutt word again. Hahaha. Funny how the mutts are more colorful and in much more demand than a common looking pure one.

Agree 100%

The above comment I made ended up in wrong place.

Agree 100%. They also have no regard for the future of the snake breeding hobby. It's just the here and now.

You could not have said it any better!!
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Genesis 1:1

You Betcha !!

WOW is this a record for longest "Discussion"?

Tim, you did keep those pines pure all these years didn't you?

Just checking as I had some from your stock a while back. At least I believe I did. Need to check old id cards.

First of all there is nothing irresponsible from breeding hybrids.

Second, as FR mentioned the second generation is where all the magical stuff happens. First gen is usually dogs.

I think you should try a different combo and do something different as A LOT of people want and do like like hybrids. IMO they were the fastest selling colubrids compared to any normal or morphs. People will always go for "looks' and they can't refuse the beauty of a well thought out hybrid. Just that so many people do common stuff or bad combos.

Just try something new and different and try not doing something that looks like something already out there or that follows the look of either spp.
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

I have to say, yes there are pure snakes in the hobby and you may be an owner, But, you are in the minority. While having a "pure" snake is what you want, and thats fine, it's not what the general public and snake owners want. The people paying the money want a snake that looks different. Thats the area that is growing now, not "pure". It's great you want to keep and breed "pure" snakes with the few others like you.

You really need to be at the Hybrid forum since this is what you seem to want to do.

I agree that most people want something that looks good and/or something "different" or rare. This is true even of many purists as they often want the rare species or rare localities.

I disagree that most people want hybrids, if that were true then pet stores and large distributors would be labeling stuff as hybrids more often. Most people are simply unaware that there's an issue, they see a pretty snake and take for granted that it is whatever the seller is calling it.

I for one would like to see hybrids legitamatized and treated with more respect. That way I think more sellers would label things correctly and people would actually have a choice in what they buy.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Thats a good point and I know what your meaning, but the normal Joe Blow that walks into a petshop to buy a snake, does not care if it is pure, 50-50, hybrid, whatever. It's bought because of the way it looks and thats what he wants and enjoys. If it was labeled Hybrid, most people would not know what that ment and would not care anyway.

I agree. Most people maybe start out with a mass produced snake; their criteria may have as much to do with their source being convieniently located as it does with species selection. If they become serious about breeding they want to have a choice.

The notion that purity is impossible or useless is a fairly recent phenomena that popped up on these forums a few years ago in response to accusatory and overzealous purists. It's not a real scientific viewpoint, in fact science seems to be going the opposite direction by creating even more species and elevating subspecies to species.

I think the audience of this forum is either more advanced than the average Joe Blow, or wants to be, that's why they're here. As such I think it's appropriate to delve into issues like this. I would not walk up to someone in Petco and confront them about the purity of the snake they are about to buy. Picturing that is good for a laugh! But here is just the place to share opinions about advanced issues but leave criticisms at home.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Good point !!

Nice to see some activity at this forum again! We should unearth the other zombie topics, like co-habitation and such!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I know. Great aint it !!!

I would be concerned about that California king devouring your nice thayeri. For that reason alone, you may want to reconsider. But it is certainly your right to feed your king an expensive meal.

I know, thats a real concern. I just got the Thayers today, and while he is 38" long his weight seems very light to me. 125g, less than a 5th of the female. Something to think about. Thanks for the input.

Debate? Was there a debate?
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"So I will end with, your now aware of the problem, what YOU do is entirely up to you. Now if you make THIS mistake, its not because you are ignorant."

Frank Retes

This discussion has been moved to the Hybrid Discussion Forum.

I posted above of how nice this pine is. Exceptional.

Yes, it is an nice northern and to my eyes, 100% northern. It was grossly unfair for one of the thread contributors to state otherwise. Appears he just blurted out some nonsense because he was in disagreement over the hybridization issue.

" Appears he just blurted out some nonsense because he was in disagreement over the hybridization issue."

Hence the childlike behavior, and known lies.

Remember, you are not dealing with mature herpers. You are dealing with tall tale tellers who seek what feels good, instead of seeking scientific knowledge, and perpetuating the hobby with real snakes, not creations.
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Genesis 1:1

Real snakes???? I thought all snakes were real?? I know the hybrids are Real-ly what the public wants.

Hate to break it to you but what most of the public really wants is to make a buck. The progressive change in the hobby has always been to give the public something new, new = higher price. There was a time when a yellow ratsnake was a big deal. Really now, how many of those do you see being produced today. Always a few being produced but nothing like the numbers that were produced years ago.

Nothing wrong with making a buck though and in any hobby change needs to occur to keep people interested. But the reason for the changes has always been for the buck. For example check out everything Ball Python and see how far they have come in the hobby.

Without change this hobby would have died a long time ago. Without the extra revenue there never would have been enough money for breeders to keep up with this change.

I question the "what the public wants" part of the equation. I personally have not seen this demand for hybrids and I do not live under a rock (well, not all the time). Now when I say hybrid, I am referring to hybridization between two different species, like the OP proposed thayerii X California king. I have little doubt that lots of careless intergrades between different geographic races (like getula X floridana or califoniae X nigrita ) are sold to pet stores, etc. But the demand for Pueblan milksnake X cornsnakes or thayerii X Cali king seems pretty low. Just enough to be chump change.

Actually, I do not really care too much what the public wants. I know what I want and I know who I would go to get it. Guys that have outstanding reputation and a long history in the hobby. Coincidentally, these are frequently the locale guys.

"I know the hybrids are Real-ly what the public wants."

Then why aren't snakes marketed as hybrids more popular?
And why do you keeping spouting out lies to support your beliefs?

Tim

You two are in such a fog!! You can't see what the future is. And the future is NOW.

OK. Guess I am also in a fog, so educate me. First let me say that I do not keep hybrids and have no intention of doing so, but I sure cannot tell you what to do. Nor do I want to. I respect the passion of Discern, Spuckler, DMong and others who cringe at the thought of hybrids, even though I am not as passionate. But I have found out that the "pure" guys seem to take the best care of their snakes. Some of these guys have snakes that they have kept for 15-20 years. That is rare in this hobby. Yeah, I know they can reach that age, but very few hobbyists keep them that long.
At any rate, my question is, does anybody really buy these hybrids? Does this market to which you refer actually exist? Have you, Keeper08, sold any hybrids or are you just speculating about their popularity?
Thanks.

Good lord man!! Look at any, and I mean ANY pet store. 99.9% of the snakes sold there are hybrids. All the huge breeders are breeding hybrids. Thats what the public buys, thats the demand. So there are a few of you that want to raise what YOU call "pure", but don't kid yourselves or anyone else. People, the public, buy snakes because of the way they look, nothing else. They could give a rats ass how pure it is. You "pure" people are so far in the minority it's not even funny. Now, your comeback is, hybrid breeders don't take as good care of their snakes as you "pure" breeders. Really digging for something aint ya!!!!

You really didn't answer the question that was asked. Most snakes, whether hybrids or not, are not marketed as such. People generally don't want "mutt" snakes. I saw my first "jungle corns" 25 years ago and they haven't made a dent in the market. If people wanted them, they'd be more popular.

At any show I've been to (and I've been to a lot of them) reptiles marketed as hybrids were less than 5% of what was being offered (and usually closer to 1%). They have not "caught on" in any significant way and have had plenty of time to do so.

I'd like to hear your answers to tbrophy's questions, instead of seeing you dodge those questions with statements you cannot prove.

Ball Pythons and Common Boas are pet store staples and I doubt very much that those sold in stores have been hybrized...and I also think they make up more than .1% of the snakes sold by pet stores. So a lot of what you've been saying has been a load of crap. And that's the problem with many hybrid breeders - they'll say anything to justify what they do.

So rather than spew inaccurate information, can you answer the questions that were asked?

Tim

There's that "mutt" word again, LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should get back on your meds and stop making a fool of yourself.

"Look at any, and I mean ANY pet store. 99.9% of the snakes sold there are hybrids."

But most of that is due to secretly breeding morph genes of one species into other species and then backcrossing so it looks like the species they want. These crosses do look good and make good pets, etc. but most people who buy them are under the impression that they are buying a pure snake.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

I agree, but also I don't think most people that buy from pet shops care if it's pure, or what. They are buying a snake they think is pretty and they like it. I bet way over 50% are bought for kids, and they sure don't care.

your opinion

tim ive done that cross and I see it in yours that I linked pics of, NOT the nice ones you've just keep posting the ones I linked to which you seem to ignore.
how can ones OPINION be a lie tim? really??? explain that please.

my opinion stands.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Your first comments in this thread read as follows- "Yeah tim, like your bullpine hybrids you try and sell off as pure northerns. what a hypocrite". you write that like we are to assume its fact. Nowhere do you state this is your opinion. he has every right to defend himself over these obvious slanderous comments. IMO. dave.

Oh, you will see that sort of talk from a couple of the "pure" fools.

That is such a bizarre reply it only proves my point. Thank you.

im not talking my way out of anything, theres no need to.
like I said ive done that cross and the ones you posted in the pit forum have bull in them imho.
call me all the names you want to, it still will not change my view/opinion.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You can be as passionate as you want about the TOPIC you're discussing. You can disagree. You can even disagree heatedly.

But all posts that are aimed at individuals rather than the issue, that insult or call names, WILL be removed, and people who continue to engage in personal attacks instead of actual discussion and debate will lose access to their account.

Community Review
kingsnake.com

This is the 'hybrid' forum correct? Which means that people should be free to discuss hybrid crosses without being attacked.

Why don't you get some balls and call out the so called purists for attacking or pontificating to the hybrid breeders? If a person wants to cross breed that is their personal choice. To each his own. Who the hell are these people to tell us that breeding hybrids is wrong in the hybrids forum no less?

I'm sure after reading this post my account will be deleted, not a problem though as I have several already.

Exactly what I thought when I read this thread in it's entirety. If you don't like hybrids then fine but dont act like it is the bane of snakes existence. Respect other opinions that differ from yours and dont make assumptions on the community based on one of the individuals. Some people here not only treat hybrids like trash but also certain patterns. I myself dont own a hybrid, though the Imperial Pueblans I've seen are just breathtakingly beautiful and is a snake I would like to add to my collection, but my Aberrant Cal King was described in a tone of disgust when I asked about what its pattern was. People like what they like. Learn to accept it guys.

This thread started in the "kingsnake forum" and was moved to the hybrid forum. As I recall the most scathing attacks on hybrids occurred while the thread was still in the kingsnake forum.

Agreed yet, still, why all the hate for hybrids? Again, people will like what they'll like. No need to be hating on what some people prefer because it doesn't match your preferences. BTW, not an attack on your person just on the intolerable ones out there.

No offense taken. The main concern is that these hybrids and their offspring will muddy up the captive gene pool. I actually agree with the purists that hybridization is not desirable, but I do not wish to control what other folks do with their snakes.

That is understandable. I just think that there are niches in the hobby that both can take advantage of. I can only speak for myself but, when I bought my first snake I was looking for one that was easy to take care of AND had a pattern that I liked. Didnt care if it was a Hybrid or not. Im not saying most new buyers think the way I do but it wouldnt be a stretch either to say they do. Why dont we just focus on that (the niches, I mean)? True there are breeders that are dishonest but that doesnt only limit them to being Hybrid breeders. The hobby should be kept alive, true. Its just some people depend on this hobby to put food on the table so they will adapt. I'm not defending dishonesty anywhere btw.

I could see situations where the offspring of a hybridized animal got sold and eventually bred to a "pure" snake, thus producing hybrids. Some of the hybrids appear very obviously hybridized (to me), but some look similar to "pure" species, especially second or third generation removed. It has happened that the breeder may not even know he was hybridizing; it could be accidental. I hold no animosity to the hybridizers, but I would never do it myself.

I'm just tired of the same few that pile on like a pack of hungry wolves when it comes to hybrids. Like I said before, the only responsibility a person breeding hybrids has is to inform the person buying the snake it's an intergrade or hybrid. That's it folks. Other than that, a person should be able to breed whatever they like, with whoever they like, whenever they like and not feel guilty about it. End of story...

It is really up to you whether you feel guilty or not about hybridizing snakes or pretty much anything, right?