Reptile & Amphibian Forums

January 10 2013 19:11-19:13
Here is a 2012 Amel that thought he could eat my finger. This was purely a feeding response as I was holding him while cleaning his tub prior to feeding him. He was totally calm and gave no indication of biting when I picked him up and was holding him for several minutes. Next thing I know, I feel the sting of his rear fangs as he's latched onto my finger.

January 10 2013 19:14
This is right after he voluntarily let go of my finger. Notice how thin and watery the blood looks? The bite site at this point has a burning sensation much like the feeling of a bee sting.

January 10 2013 19:45
This was taken 30 minutes after the bite. The middle finger is already stiffening up and swollen as is the middle knuckle. The inflamation is starting to spread to surrounding tissue. The bite site continues to have a deep burning sensation.

January 11 2013 01:51
By around 2am, the swelling has spread throughout the top of my hand. Deep burning is still felt around bite site and a mild throbbing pain is felt throughout top of hand.

January 11 2013 14:17
Notice the amount of swelling now on top of my left hand compared to the right? Pain around bite site has subsided some but is now kind of numb. The top of my hand feels very tight accompanied with a dull pain while holding still but starts to burn pain when I move my fingers. The swelling has now gone into my wrist.

January 11 2013 14:18
Obvious redness along with swelling is still observed. The top of my hand is significantly warmer to the touch than my other hand. At this point, I can't make a fist, mobility of my fingers is probably reduced to about 20%.

January 11 2013 16:05

January 12 2013 02:00
The swelling has now gone halfway up into my forearm.

January 12 2013 13:55
The swelling has finally resided in my fingers to the point where I can almost make a fist, probably at 80%. The swelling in my hand has gone down some but it's still puffy enough that you still can't see my knuckles. The pain that I was experiencing from moving my fingers has decreased dramatically which is great as it was really burning every time I moved my fingers.

January 13 2013
The swelling, while decreasing in my fingers and hands, has extended up into my forearm and is working it's way to my elbow. Last night before I went to bed, the swelling was halfway up my forearm, now it's about 90% into my forearm. The swelling in my forearm is not excessive like it was in my hand but the skin is tight and feels warm to the touch. Thankfully it doesn't hurt at all like it did in my hand.

January 14 2013
The swelling is finally starting to reduce itself in my forearm as is the pain in my hand. Mobility in my hand is almost back to normal.

January 15 2013
All is back to normal. The swelling, discoloration and burning pain is all gone. My hand is still a little sore from the experience but I have complete mobility once again.

In my 7 years of keeping hognose, I've been bitten about 6 times where the snakes were actually able to sink their fangs deep into my flesh. Out of those 6 times, I've only had 2 reactions.

My first bite reaction was caused by an adult male that was latched onto one of my fingers for 4-5 minutes, he was extremely difficult to get off of my finger as he was quite insistent on not letting go. I experienced the same type of bee sting kind of burning sensation and swelling but it was all pretty much localized to just that finger and a small part of the knuckle. The pain and swelling completely subsided with 45-60 minutes.

This last experience, however, was significantly worse and very surprising considering it came from a much smaller snake. Either I've now become sensitive to their venom, or this little guy dumped more venom into my system than I received from my previous bite or he bit into a vein or a nerve that caused more of a reaction than the previous bite did, or maybe all of the above.

All in all, while it was an interesting experience, especially coming from such a small hognose and a bite that only lasted a few minutes. It was an experience that I'm sure many would want to miss. As with any snake, always be aware of what they are capable of, always pay close attention to them when you are handling them and always handle them with caution and respect!

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Here's a couple of pictures of him taken several months later. He used to be so docile but after my bite incident with him, he's a lot more assertive and will now come after you on feeding day. He's a crazy little guy!

Whoever claims that all (captive kept) Western hognose are docile and non-aggressive obviously haven't been around very many and/or don't know just how individualistic they really can be! I have some that will crap all over themselves if you just look at them wrong while others, like this little guy, have no problem raising their head up to look you straight into the eye and then come after you. Western hognose are truly a fascinating species and one that I really enjoy studying all aspects of.

And let me reiterate what I said above as I feel it is worth repeating...

As with any snake, always be aware of what they are capable of, always pay close attention to them when you are handling them and always handle them with caution and respect!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Wow, Troy,
That is some good swelling for a snake that is only supposed to have a "toxic saliva". LOL.

It is highly umlikely that those tiny rear fangs were able to puncture a vein (even rattlesnake bites/fangs rarely hit the vascular system) and hitting a nerve would not compound the reaction. That little guy just juiced you up with everything he had. LOL. That will teach you to stick your middle finger up at that little tough guy again. LOL.

Thanks for the report Troy. Should post that on FB for the non-believers.

The problem with this report is, its not complete. That is, was the reaction from colubrid salvia, or from venom? A visit to a Doc and a blood test would have discovered what was responsible. Histamine Levels would determine if it was a allergic reaction or not.

Either way, it did not look like fun. Best wishes

LOL!,.....wow! The little bad-ass really put the swellin' on ya, Troy!

I'd say you had quite the significant reaction to the bite as some others also do. Great progression post, and I hope you can keep from sustaining more tags in the future. You definitely know what to expect from the critters, that's for sure.

take care Troy!

ps, you going to Daytona? Jimmy and I will definitely be there at our two tables.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

LOL!,.....wow! The little bad-ass really put the swellin' on ya, Troy!

That he did, that he did. He definitely let me know who's boss.

I'd say you had quite the significant reaction to the bite as some others also do. Great progression post, and I hope you can keep from sustaining more tags in the future. You definitely know what to expect from the critters, that's for sure.

Oh most definitely! It's made me a lot more aware AND careful when I handle mine. To say that I was surprised and shocked at this last reaction would be an understatement. Even though I had seen the really bad reaction as shown on Herpnet (Link), I figured that would only happen if I let an adult hognose chew on me for an extended period of time like that guy did. Little did I realize that even a small one can cause a significant reaction.

Despite the pain and inconvenience of the experience, it was actually one I was excited, if that's the right word, to have gone through just for the sake of learning something of the effects. But then again, I'm that kind of stupid!

take care Troy!

Like I always say in response, I'll take it any way I can get it!

ps, you going to Daytona? Jimmy and I will definitely be there at our two tables.

I wish I were, it's a 5 hour one-way flight and that only drops me off into Orlando, then I'd have to drive up to Daytona; it's definitely not a fun trip for me to make but that's the price I pay for flying free I suppose. I haven't been to Daytona in a handful of years and it'd be great to not only catch up with some old friends, but to finally meet all my new friends such as yourself. Maybe next year...
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Sounds great Troy,......I look real forward to it at one of the future shows.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

Thank you for such an interesting and well-documented post!

Thank you for such an interesting and well-documented post!

And thank you! I'm glad you found it informative.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

thanks for sharing troy! looks like that was a nasty reaction. glad everything turned out well in the end.

i have a couple that would try to eat a finger in a moment if they thought it was feeding time. holding one and just getting bit would have totally thrown me for a loop though.

jonathan

thanks for sharing troy! looks like that was a nasty reaction. glad everything turned out well in the end.

Thanks for reading Jonathan!

Yeah, it was definitely an interesting experience but there were no (known) long term effects. In fact, my left hand, the one that got bit, the one that always gets bit, does a lot better than my right hand, in terms of mobility, which tends to get a bit arthritic at times. Not saying that getting bit is going to solve arthritis, but getting bit sure hasn't made my left hand any worse than my right hand already is.

i have a couple that would try to eat a finger in a moment if they thought it was feeding time. holding one and just getting bit would have totally thrown me for a loop though.

I have several that have grown so used to me, that on feeding day, or any other day for that matter, they have no problem coming up to me if not coming after me! But on feeding day, everybody gets fed using tongs, no exceptions! I've been bitten far too many times by simply holding a mouse in my hands or by the tail. And yet ironically, tongs aren't always the safety net I was hoping for either, I still get some of these knuckleheads that strike past the tongs and more towards my fingers. Perhaps I'm tastier than those stinky ol' mice.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

That bite looks like it really sucked, but I would have to agree with Frank in questioning the fact that you may of have had nothing but a bad reaction to the saliva. There have been many accounts of people having allergic reactions to non venomous snake bites. I have even seen a woman's whole arm swell from a boa bite. Does that mean it was a venomous bite?
I myself have been bitten several times from western hogs with absolutely no reaction at all. One hung on for a couple of minutes giving me two quarter inch slice marks. Does this mean that I received dry bites? No, because there is no venom to inject.
Hognose snakes are not really "rear fanged" nor are they truely "venomous". Their "fangs" are not hollow and they do not inject anything because they don't have any venom glands. They are simply just two big, serrated teeth designed for popping toads. Nothing else.
These terms are harmful to our hognose community. If people keep using them, they are going to do nothing but ban them from our shows, shipping, and eventually our homes.
Be careful what you publish. The people that are responsible for banning animals are close minded and usually ignorant on the policies they try to enforce.
No offence...

Before you start spouting off things as fact, you may want to get the actual facts first.

Hognose snakes are truly rear fanged. Their fangs are independent from the rest of their dentition. They are also hinged and can be moved forward when the snake wants to engage them. They are in the spot where other rear fanged colubrids have their fangs. Do you think because the fangs are not heavily grooved or hollow that this means they are not fangs? Would you not consider a boomslang to be a venomous, rear fanged colubrid? How about a false water cobra? Barrons racers?. Non of those have hollow fangs. Your toad popping theory was crushed years ago. Toads and amphibians make up 25% of their diet at best. Please stop handing out old, outdated, and incorrect information out like that. It will only push us back in husbandry and knowledge.

Hognose snakes do indeed have a Duvernoy's glands which are in fact venom glands. The same as any other venomous colubrid iclucing boomslangs and stiletto snakes and false water cobras, and so on. Hogs do have venom. It has been proven and studied. Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry has a report or two on their VENOM, not their saliva. And contrary to popular belief, venom is not a "modified saliva". It is not related to saliva.
Also, Troys reaction is atypical to an allergic reaction to its saliva. It is however, typical to being envenomed.

It is clear that you are just worried about being able to keep and sell hogs and not caring about disclosing good, factual information. Anyone looking to get into keeping Heterodon should know exactly what they are getting into.

The fact is, they will not regulate the species because they are not harmful or medically significant. They have tried a few times already and failed bad because even with the facts, hogs have never proven to be even remotely dangerous. So you can relax a bit and work your way out of your huge state of denial. BSing people is not the way to progress in the hobby.

All I can say Gregg is WOW, awesome post! You pretty much hit the nail on the head including everything I was wanting to say and a whole lot more.

Thanks for all of the information, I even learned some new stuff!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

This like usual, is going to far. I have had a handful of hot bites, hahahahaha handful! but that also has nothing to do with this.

Unless a Doctor determined it was a venom reaction, or a allergic reaction. We will never know.

In fact, it really makes no difference, sadly, its still a result of a bite.

As I mentioned, There are lots and lots of massive nasty bites that were from gophersnakes, kingsnakes, garder snakes etc.

Dang is I can remember that fella in Oz. I have met him, partied with him and totally forgot his name. Anyway, all these snakes have venom in their saliva. According to him.

Also you know, they rarely result in swelling and such as seen here, EXCEPT when the victim is sensitive to those proteins.

Also, this thing about someones motives, it really has nothing to do with the subject. It doesn't matter what my or your or anyones motives are when theres a bite that has a reaction like Troys or worse. Cheers

Troy - you WIMP!!

Troy - you WIMP!!

WIMP - Wonderful, Intelligent, Masculine Person.

Thanks for saying so!

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy,
I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else here. I typically don't like debates because in most cases, people get their feelings hurt. I just hate negative plublicity. I am pretty sure that wasn't your intention. If I was someone who has no knowlege of snakes and read that, I would be concerned. Thats all. There are a lot of people who want to make reptile ownership nonexistant. These people generally have zero knowlege of snakes. In fact, they may be horrified by them. I would hate for this type of person to stumble upon your post. I may have been scientifically incorrect and stated my opinion as fact and I appologise for that. My ignorance may have derailled my point from getting accross.

How do we explain how other people,(most in fact),don't have a bad reaction like Troy's. I've been bit a few times as a feeding response. And held onto good. I had absolutely nothing. Not even a redness around the bite marks. I have had worst reaction to Garter snake bites.

How do we explain how other people,(most in fact),don't have a bad reaction like Troy's. I've been bit a few times as a feeding response. And held onto good. I had absolutely nothing. Not even a redness around the bite marks.

And that's a great question Mike! It even begs the question as to why only 2 out of 6 of my hognose bites resulted in a reaction, or why only 1 bite resulted in a bad reaction. Why?

Let's go with the allergy theory and come up with several hypothetical reasons why I might have had a reaction...

#1 I eventually developed an allergy to hognose saliva after several bites. (Regardless of whether hognose are actually venomous or not.)
#2 I eventually developed an allergy to hognose venom after several bites. (Assuming of course that hognose are venomous and I was envenomated.)
#3 If the first 4 bites were "dry" bites, then perhaps I'm allergic or more prone to showing reactions to hognose venom than others might be. (Assuming of course that hognose are venomous and I was envenomated.)

Let's say that even if any of the above are true, there are others out there other than myself that have had similiar reactions, some even worse than mine (Link to the famous Herpnet Hognose bite page). So I think it is very reasonable to believe that there are others who will also eventually suffer the same consequences of a hognose bite.

The bottom line is, isn't it up to us to inform those people of the possibilities of what they might be at risk for? Isn't it our responsibility to inform them and let them be the deciding factor in whether or not this is the right species for them to own based on the possible risks?

I have had worst reaction to Garter snake bites.

And yet another great example of a venomous, although considered harmless, colubrid that used to be considered non-venomous.

"Garter snakes were long thought to be nonvenomous, but recent discoveries have revealed they do, in fact, produce a mild neurotoxic venom. Garter snakes cannot kill humans with the small amounts of comparatively mild venom they produce, and they also lack an effective means of delivering it. They do have enlarged teeth in the back of their mouths, but their gums are significantly larger. The Duvernoy's glands of garters are posterior (to the rear) of the snake's eyes. The mild venom is spread into wounds through a chewing action." - Link

Thanks for posting Mike!
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy,
I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else here. I typically don't like debates because in most cases, people get their feelings hurt.

No disrespect taken and definitely no feelings of mine were hurt by your post. We're cool!

If anything, your post elicited Gregg to respond with a great factual post which led to him and I having a(nother) great phone conversation which led me to do further research and fully understand a lot more about this topic than I ever knew before.

I just hate negative plublicity. I am pretty sure that wasn't your intention. If I was someone who has no knowlege of snakes and read that, I would be concerned. Thats all.

And that was my actual intention of posting my experience, to share my experience so that someone else could have some knowledge of the potential side effects of a hognose bite and make the determination on whether or not it's the right species of snake for them to keep.

I was definitely trying to be informative, not negative. But the fact is, some information is negative no matter how you cut it and it's up to people to decide on what to do with that information.

Everybody knows the risks of driving while under the influence of alcohol and yet people still do it even though lives are taken and destroyed by this choice. They are informed, they know the risks and choices are made.

My point is, if someone really wants a hognose snake, they are going to get one even if armed with the knowledge of the possbility of a reaction from being bitten. Heck, one guy told me that that was what interested him in wanting to keep hognose, because it was like keeping a "hot" snake without the risk of losing a limb or life. People will put their own spin on the reasons why to own or not own a hognose, but it should be their decision to make based on the facts of what is possible. That's all I was trying to convey.

There are a lot of people who want to make reptile ownership nonexistant. These people generally have zero knowlege of snakes. In fact, they may be horrified by them. I would hate for this type of person to stumble upon your post. I may have been scientifically incorrect and stated my opinion as fact and I appologise for that.

The absolute truth is, if someone is afraid of something, it doesn't matter whether they want to believe in the facts or mythology, they are still going to demonize that which they fear. Snakes of course top the fear list for a lot of people, it doesn't matter if it's a corn snake or a cobra, they'll still freak out and run in the opposite direction when faced with either. So the fact that a hognose bite can cause pain and swelling isn't going to make it any worse for someone who is already demonizing snakes.

Am I giving snake haters ammo for sharing my bite experience on the internet for all to see? That's like saying that the Discovery Channel is hurting the shark population and the tourist beaches every year when they show Shark Week. The truth is, in relation to Shark Week, is that even though people know more about sharks and their lethal potential, it's also raised in awareness and the need for their conservation. Kind of like what Steve Irwin did for the much feared and maligned crocodiles all those many years ago.

Actually, knowledge is power, and with power comes respect. So if knowing the truth about the potentials of hognose bites gives people the knowledge and respect they need to know so that they can lessen the chances of a bite and a reaction, then we're actually reducing the negative aspects of hognose ownership by hopefully reducing the bites that come from owning such a species.

Either way, regardless of the differences of opinions regarding this seemingly sensitive topic, it's been fun, energizing and above all, educational to me and I hope others as well.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy,
I just read your post. I agree. We can all learn from this. I have learned a great deal from this post. I am sorry if anyone took this as an attack. It was not my intention. As a former venomous keeper, I disliked captive envenomation posts as well. I hope no body here has gotten a sour taste from my reaction.

There's been some talk that my bite could have been an allergic reaction instead of a reaction from venom. This is actually a good and relevant question, so I will hopefully try to help those that don't know me or what I've experienced during my life to help them understand why I don't think this was an allergic reaction.

For those that don't know me, I've been keeping colubrids for over 20 years, mainly rat snakes, kingsnakes and hognose.

From the rat snakes and kings, I've been bitten dozens of times usually with the same result, multiple puncture wounds from all of the teeth, bleeding and a very generalized redness localized to just the surrounding tissue of the bite site that lasted no more than an hour or so. From these types of colubrids, I've never once experienced anything remotely close like I did from this last hognose bite.

Like I stated in my original post, I've been severely bitten about 6 times from Western Hognose, I say severely merely to indicate that the bites were ones that resulted in deep puncture wounds from the fangs. Of those 6 bites, I've only had 2 reactions, both I mentioned in my original post. If I were allergic to Nasicus saliva, I would assume that all 6 bites would have resulted in reactions, not just 2 and not from the bite of the smallest hognose that also happened to cause the most severe reaction, I doubt he had more saliva enter me than any of the other ones.

I would also like to clearly state that during my lifetime, I have been stung over a hundred times from bees, wasps and hornets. I used to clean swimming pools in Southern California, getting stung often was just part of the job. Not once did I ever have an allergic reaction nor any type of reaction that resulted in the need for medical care/treatment. One time when I was 10, I sat on an underground hornets nest and got stung over 30 times on my head alone, yes, my head hurt like hell, but I didn't need medical attention then and I never needed for all of the other times I've been stung all the decades later.

Now, there might be a valid point stating that allergies can be different between bees and snakes, or even between the different species of colubrids, or even the fact that people can develop allergies over a period of time. And those are all valid and debatable points! Being that I did not seek medical attention for this last bite, it does leave a lot to be assumed, so that is not lost on me.

However, the facts remain that Western Hognose (Heterodon Nasicus Nasicus) are in fact rear-fanged and venomous based on several links I gave in this post.

Could I have developed an allergic reaction over the years from all of the bites and stings I've endured? Possibly. Could I just be allergic to the saliva or venom of just the Western Hognose species? Perhaps. Could my bite reaction have been the cause of being envenomated? Definitely! The truth is, we don't know what the actual cause of my reaction was, but the facts surrounding hognose having rear-fangs and venom point more in the direction of envenomation than anything else with the facts that we do know.

If this were something to be addressed in court, I think that the opinion would lean more towards envenomation rather than an allergic reaction based on the evidence of my medical history of showing no allergic reactions to envenomations from bees nor bites from other colubrids and the fact that hognose are known to biologically be rear-fanged and venomous however weak and non-lethal that venom might be.

Anyways, at the end of the day, all I can state are the facts as I know them, that I got bit and had a severe reaction that lasted for 4 days from a species of snake that is known to be rear-fanged and mildly venomous. After that, all I can presume is, based on the aforementioned facts, that my reaction was the cause of envenomation.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles