Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For those who truly believe hogs are not venomous, put your money, or should I say finger, where your mouth is. Allow your hog to chew on your finger for a minute or three and document the bite.

This could be an interesting little test.

Any takers?

Ok, if you get a nail and drive it in your finger.

Actually when I was a stupid kid, I did that with a huge lyresnake, nothing. I also let it chew on a adult sidewinders tail and the sidewinder was dead the next day. As with hogs, I had a friend that had a reaction to a lyresnake bite.

As I have mentioned, my parts do get into the mouths of venomous snakes, doing it on purpose would ruin my mojo.

Why on earth would you put your hog under so stress for 1-3 minutes???, Thats the most stupid thing i have seen a herper write its beyond me that you would advise this alone for the hognose snake, Who cares about the stupid human watching his hog chomp away and exactly for that reason hogs are harmless who would be so stupid child or adult alike to let there hog chew on them until there teeth dig in make you bleed and watch for a few more minutes and enjoy the venom LOL..

Why on earth would you put your hog under so stress for 1-3 minutes???

I think the majority of us believe that hognose do not bite out of aggression or defense, that they only bite due to a feeding response. I would tend to believe that an eating response is far less stressful than an animal feeling the need to bite out of aggression or defense. Doesn't that sound logical to you?

I highly doubt that hognose are under unnatural and potentially unhealthful stress when in eating mode and biting into intended prey (or unintended prey such as a human's finger), that just doesn't sound logical to me. Does it sound logical to you? Do you believe that hognose undergo unhealthy stress every single time they are in feeding mode and bite into intended or unintended prey? After all, that is what you are implying.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

It is a dumb idea, no matter what. You did a great job reporting yours.

How about just having all the other hog keepers report their experience with hognose bites.

I simply have not been bit hard by one, one did attempt to swallow my finger, but nothing happened.

In the field, they simply will not bite, they fake strike, open their mouths, blood pours out at times and they rub it on you, but never bite. None of us even pay attention to if they are going to bite or not.

In most cases, we just want them to pose and stop with the nonsense.

May I ask, was their localize tissue destruction? or any localized discoloration? Any systematic damage at all? Other then swelling. And please, these are decent questions to help understand the bite.

Ok, out to observe lyres and tigers and blacktails and pyros and more. Tomorrow folks

Been there done that got the badge, Posted that already in my past posts bites = feed related, My past bites have only been for seconds because i did not let the hog chomp classic case of mistaken identity, This advice is still non the less stupid, How do you know how someone will take that infomation and what they will do with it, promoting a hognose to bite someone that may have a very bad reaction too the bite, Because of your buddys advice to make sure he chomps for a while upto 3 minutes! Get that venom in the wound as much as you can, lol.. Very responsible advice.. not everyone is you, Please think of the public and the general safety to keepers that are not experts like some others are that have years of experience.

Your reply is not what I was asking about. You claimed it was stressful to let a hognose bite you, I asked you to prove your claim, you have failed to done so. Your reply to my question is completely irrelevant to your original claims of stress to the animal. Whether you think it's idiotic or not to let a hognose bite you does not back up your claim that it is stressful to the animal.

Your reply is what we call a Straw Man argument, which is basically avoiding the actual points of the argument/discussion and bringing up irrelevant points in the hopes of redirecting what the original argument was. This is what you are doing, avoiding the question. Either back up your claim or concede the point.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I am again wondering about this. Captivity is stressful, a human finger in their mouth is stressful. anything not normal is stressful. Locked in a small box is stressful.

You sir, always give advice to people about educating themselves. You sir, need to study up on ethology. What your talking about IS BEHAVIOR(ethology) if you had an basic understanding of behavior, you would KNOW, that biting a human finger is stressful. The question is, HOW STRESSFUL.

The point is, is it stressful enough to be deleterious to the animal or its normal behavior? The answer to that is individual.

So there is no one answer, which is a concept foreign to recipe keepers. As you see here, folks fight over EXACT meanings, the problem is, with living animals, including us, their is no EXACT. With behavior, there can be many different responces to a single impulse. (reacting to an impulse is the definition of life). Best wishes and have a great day.

p.s. you see we are so different, you make everything personal, including your reaction to me. Which is silly childs play. This is only a forum, While you can play your silly games, I do not have to. Again, and seriously, have a wonderful day and best of luck.

The reason we fight is, you take everything EXACT, and I am not EXACT, as I have said, I am about ethology which is not exact. What we see when we look at snakes is ethology thats made 0f biology, How that biological unit functions is Ethology. Which is not exact. Thanks

I've seen the pics, etc.
I've also been bit, feeding response, and had NO reaction.
How does your body respond/react to bee stings? wasps? etc.
Do you have other health issues that could possibly compromise your immune system?
John Q

Good questions John, thanks for asking...

How does your body respond/react to bee stings? wasps? etc.

I talked extensively about all of that here. But the short answer is no, I've been stung over a hundred times and never had a reaction.

Do you have other health issues that could possibly compromise your immune system?

Nope, not at all, or at least none that I am currently aware of. In fact, despite being overweight, I have an excellent immune system, having survived intestinal surgery complicated with severe peritonitis which should have killed me several years ago. Also having cut off part of my thumb and not getting any infections from that nor from the dead tissue while my thumb was healing.

No, I've been through far worse things in recent years that were, or should have been far worse than getting bitten by a little 20 gram hognose snake. And like I stated before, that wasn't my first bite from a hognose, just the worst one.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Hi Troy, Please understand or research, Allergies are a matter of exposure. And repetition of exposures.

Its not a I am allergic or not. Many many allergies are developed over time/and exposure.

Also, being overweight does have an effect on your immune system. Again, not always Z. Its about bloodflow. Your heart has to push blood to more mass then if you were less overweight. Same heart, more mass.

Bloodflow is the key to healing. If you did well like you are, you would have done better, with less weight.

Again, you want to be exacting, but here your not. Both the immune system and ability to heal, are indeed variable and timely.

To bring it back to the point of this thread, you are assuming its not your immune system etc. which you can assume all you want. The point is, you do not know.

It was not verified by anyone of knowledge. What is odd, is you would ask that of anyone else. To have it verified. But you did not do that yourself.

While I liked you posting your bite, Your making a lot of assumptions in reporting it. This is lesson you to learn in the field, a report, is to directly communicate an observation, without prejudice or assumptions. To report.

The quality of a report is how well that is done. And let me tell you, its a constant struggle to not prejudice information. Best wishes

Troy keeps deleting my post he knows i am right about the stress factor of the argument, He does not believe in a Free Country!!!!! he is a Dictator, Put back my posts otherwize you are no true american!

I don't think Troy can delete posts. Its the unseen moderator. You/we need to say our piece, but stay within the TOS.

If the post is off topic, it can be deleted and for no other reason. Of course calling names will get the post deleted.

There are times when the moderator does not understand the topic and will delete a post only because someone complained.

That would be THIS SITES FAULT and not Troys.

The last moderator was Cindy, she is strong and smart, and fair, if you understood her position, it was easy to stay within the TOS.

In many cases, its about how we say something, not what we say. Good luck and keep posting

If thats so its a buddy of Troys or Gregg.... pays him off with snakes or whatever, Its a wild guess but why else delete them i had beaten his arguement then one by one only my threads got taken out but not his then also yours (thats a little proof right there) Its a joke.

You may need to tone it down a bit. I think you are getting a little too fired up. Is it that important to prove Troy wrong on this?

And the childish comments need to be stopped. Saying Troy is not a true American is a bit silly especially being that Troy served our great Country. And the comment about the moderator being a friend of Troys or mine is just ridiculous. If that were the case, I think some of Franks and Wills posts would have been deleted as well.

I am not sure why your balls are all twisted in a knot. But whatever the reason, you should just let it go. Will has let it go, I have let it go, Troy has let it go, and I believe Frank has as well. We all had our heated debate and said some things that might have been better off left in our heads. My original post about letting your hogs bite you was in jest, mostly. It is time to move on now.

We all share the same interest for the same and different reasons. So lets be cool until the next hot topic surfaces,

What disappoints me is, I said I would let a hog bite me if you drove a nail in your finger. I thought that was funny and would point out, the post was in jest.

I did go out and hand one of my hogs a large fuzzie. It grabbed it, fanged the beans out of it, then swallowed it ALIVE. IT also took its time. I saw no signs of envenomation. But I will do it many many times over, just to see.

I will say this, its fangs were the equal to that of a rock rattlesnakes fangs of the same total length. Cheers

I'll let it all go apart from that he is WRONG about what he is saying about stress he has kept snakes for how long?? and trys to tell me that letting a hognose bite you causes no stress nope can't see no stress, WHATT he must be getting snakes mixed up with mammels??? A snake shows its stress in its instinktive reactions i.e biting you, fleeing from you, Hissing at you all forms of a snake showing stress. its a joke...really is not even a valid arguement.

P.s I know all about serving i devoted my whole teenage life to fighting 3 tours afgahn 1 tour iraq thank you very much, I have a understanding of loss and the dark side of men than you ever will, And thank god for that trust me.... The only good thing about war was that i saw a arabian sand boa in iraq that i kept as a mascot of our company 42 Field Support Sqn Royal Engineers that year 3 of my brothers fell R.I.P for my Queen and Country and Fellow Allies, My Country is the only one in Europe that stood tall and backed your Country and paid the price in a VERY big way, Its got nothing to do with being a HERPER, But as you wanted to use this in some way to make me look bad, Came the p.s Otherwize i would of left it. Great Welcome to the POLITICS of Hognoses really sad just like war i'll have to fight my way through this crap... Thanks Gregg and Troy

I apologize, It takes alot for me to cool, At the end of the day you are right, As you may of relized you hit a kink in my armour, I was already worked up and the smallest reminder triggered a BIG reaction in my mind, For me war was not to long ago and it has left a darkness/temper i have to fight within myself every god dam day, Its not all bad it made me the man i am now and tough as nails, Being a Herper is my release, Its therapy, Its my passion as it is all of yours, So i feel i have to defend my view that i got learning from guys like John,Over years as a kid when it comes to hognoses i absorbed every word TRUST ME and i am sorry Gregg,Some of Troys Facts go against what i learnt, Shall i start quoting ALL of Johns book Gregg on the last topic or do you think hes also wrong? Does he not call it a ongoing debate?(not troys correct)I have alot of experience as you all do aswell in different ways,I bred my first reptiles when i was 7 leopard geckos by the age of 12 i was breeding dragons to hognoses to rainbow boas even odd ball things like red eye tree frogs list goes on, I also kept a Adder for 2 months until my dad saw it and said thats ILEGAL and DANGEROUS! My reply was not in America dam it! Never got bitten almost though when i was picking it up but kept cool put him in my school bag lol, Then came army school and my dad forced me into giving up my whole collection (over 100 animals),Years of going to shows like Hamm in Germany learning absorbing all the knowledge i can,I swore to myself after having to give up my childhood dream that i was living day to day that i will have a collection one day 5 times that of before, Now my passion is Hognoses and Sand Boas and in the last 3 years i am slowly starting to get somewhere again seeing my first success at shows and slowly but surely am starting to see alot of promise in my future lines, I took the advice from someone at Columbus reptile show to check out kingsnake,Anyways Good day to all you hog keepers.

I knew posting this would get this reaction. It was not meant to be taken literally or seriously. I am not suggesting anyone do this. I was just proving a point.

in my point of view, the reason why hogs bite is not really important, even i believe that they normally bite someone's finger because they smell the scent of mice from the finger...

but the most important thing is that when we get bite from hogs, and they don't intend to open the mouth...just biting and hold on...

what can we do for that, in HK or Chinese custom, someone said for softshell turtle, when we bite someone, we also will not open the mouth until you put the hand and the turtle in the water, because they need to breathe, so they will open mouth and swim to the water surface to get air...

is that the same case as hogs???
any other method??

I learned a trick from an old dog fighter (dont agree with it, but thats what he was and where the trick came from) to break a pair of dogs up that dont want to stop fighting, put a little squirt of white vinegar in the mouth and they will let go quick. Its safe and nontoxic, just dont drowned them in it. Well I used this method with a pretty nasty retic I was working with at the university. One day she just up and grabbed my thigh, I couldnt get her to let go and she was just too big to unwind so I told my colleague to grab the vinegar and we poured a bit into her mouth. You would have thought we started a campfire in her mouth or something the way she let go. I have heard of alcohol being used as well but I dont trust that rubbing alcohol has no ill effects compared to vinegar.

Will

For a moment I thought you were recommending it to stop Troy and Lance fighting

Ya me too! That was a good one!

What the hell kind of tactic are you employing right now?

There's not tactic, it's a simple question asking you to prove what you are claiming, that's all.

Trying to play me out to be a idiot

No, you are doing that all on your own with no help from me.

You are defending a action that can lead to someone getting hurt

First off, in case you don't understand, Gregg's "suggestion" is a tongue-in-cheek kind of joke. So if you didn't understand that he was being funny, well, now you know.

Second, I've not said anything in regards to what Gregg suggested, defending him or not. Show me where I have defended him and his tongue-in-cheek suggestion. Please, show me what you say about me is true.

How do you know 100% that a person will not stress there snake out by doing that?

And how do you know that a person will stress them out? You are the one making the claim, not me. I'm simply asking you to prove your claim. I've been keeping snakes for over 20 years and have been bitten countless times, I've never noticed any of them suffering from undue stress from having bit me.

How many years have you been keeping snakes? How many times have you been bitten? Have you witnessed any unhealthy stress in a snake that has bitten you? If so, please share with us your experience so that we can all learn from it.

Its not going to be doing it any favors thats for sure and its not going to like humans much

No, I can't imagine that the snake would be too happy from the experience as it was hoping to eat and all it got was a taste.

The snake isn't going to like humans much? Another one of your claims based on what exactly?

Have you got any real idea what you are doing? Hurting keepers? you should be ashamed!

And what exactly am I doing? How am I hurting keepers? What should I be ashamed of? What is it exactly you are accusing me of doing?

ALL Your recent threads are one huge mess of Straw man arguments

They are? Prove it! Prove one thing I've said that is a Straw Man argument, please, show me and everybody else here. Do you even know what a Straw Man argument is? Did you actually read the link I gave you?

Instead of helping others learn and expand there knowledge you and Gregg try and stomp on everyone very Anti Social and even stick to your guns defending BAD advice to others.

Actually, despite the negativity that seems to be coming from a few people such as yourself, I know for a fact that Gregg and I have offered more in the way of factual information than the rest of you put together. All we seem to be hearing from you and the others is just baseless opinions with no means of backing up what you say with actual facts. All I've done is ask you with respect to back up your claim that a hognose will be stressed from biting someone. All you can seem to do is get upset and attack me. If anyone is being anti-social and stomping all over people, it's you. If you cannot understand this, then I actually feel very sorry for you.

And wow you are arrogant great trait.

So now you are into judging people and name calling, what a shame. All I did was ask you a simple question and you attack and insult me. Did I attack and insult you?

However, you still haven't answered my question....

Can you prove your claim that a snake will be stressed out by biting someone as you claim?
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy keeps deleting my post he knows i am right about the stress factor of the argument, He does not believe in a Free Country!!!!! he is a Dictator, Put back my posts otherwize you are no true american!

We all know the potential of a hognose bite. Wouldnt the far better test, to determine if they are venomous, be to cover your entire body in toad juice and let EVERYONE OF YOUR HOGS bite your ass lol. Now I really do wonder the potential outcome of this. Venom would imply that even if it is harmless in one bite, a far heavier dose would imply a far worse reaction. Im willing to bet at worse your entire body will swell up (might not be a bad thing for some parts of the body lol), or you will just have a punch of leaky puncture wounds to report about.

I have been bit by hogs, a couple of southern copperheads, a pecos copperhead, and a timber rattler in my field studies. All of my bites were dry except the pecos copperhead and one of the southerns. While I did go to the hospital (unlike Frank lol) I didnt need to apparently because all they did was keep a close eye on me until my body pushed out the toxins on its own (granted it was only a couple copperhead bites which generally arnt considered fatal, I cant say I would be in the same position if I would have been envenomated by the timber).

Remember everyones bodies react differently to EVERY foreign substance that enter the host. Like Frank said about the parakeet. I have actually never had a parrot bite (use to work in a large pet store that specialized in birds) that didnt swell up and get nasty and infected, granted not like troys hand, but I regularly get bit my nonvenomous snakes and have zero reaction. Damn birds.

Will

hahahahahahahahahahaha

your forming a pattern. I said the last bite/s I did not go to the hospital. The first ones I did and like you, was of no value. The first a WDB, swelled up to my shoulder, that was it, nothing systematic, no other symptoms, no pain, they administered three vials of HS, which is useless but even to give you a Allergic reaction and nothing for the bite.

The second a Blacktail Rattlesnake(doing a Steve Irwin), I was with an Ozzie paramedic, he demanded I go to the hospital. I said ok, but I am not letting them do anything and I didn't. Swelling to mid forearm and no pain.

With the above experience, I now monitor the bites and that includes having a friend stay by in case something occurs. We set rules as to how fast the swelling spreads and if any systematic symptoms occur. If the symptoms exceed those rules, off to the hospital we go. So far, swelling to mid forearm and no pain. No pain at all. I am weird I tell you.

In total, 11 rattlesnake bites, 8 dry. which included some real funny stories, like my med student friend chasing me around with a giant buck knife. Cheers

LoL no pattern, you misunderstood one of my "mistakes" as getting upset with you, when I was meaning it towards Gregg, I just happened to hit reply after one of your replies which probably caused the confusion.

I would say most bites dont warrant a trip to the hospital, but youre more man than I Frank. The suspense of "Oh my god did I get a dry bite or a hot bite" is enough to send me into convulsions on its own, so I always box up the critter that tagged me (you get looked at real weird in the hospital when you bring in a venomous snake in a rubbermaid with the lid taped shut) just in case I go into shock or something on the way. Also a lot of rednecks misidentify every kind of snake here as a copperhead, so rather than trying to convince them of what bit me, and that I know what Im talking about, I just bring it along and show them lol.

How do you feel about letting the hogs bite you all over?

Will

What I want to know is how exactly you guys took all of these bites from venomous snakes? LOL

Look at it from my point of view. I have literally kept venomous snakes for over 20 years. Worked with them on a daily basis. I never took a bite, dry or otherwise.

I cannot speak for Will, but does the word idiot come to mind. No its not smart. And my friends ask me why I keep taking those chances. The answer is simple, it does not hurt. And that's the truth. So far, no pain.

On the otherhand, scorpions hurt like heck. So it must be the kind of pain.

I wrestled in school and afterwards, College and AAU. And completely dislocated both knees, my left knee pulled out of socket twice. One elbow completely hyper extended The back of my hand was touching my the back of my shoulder, and none of that hurt either, and I just kept going. I broke three ribs in a take down tourney. And wrestled in another tourney two days Later, swelling and such was a pain. So theres something wrong with me.

In all cases, it was my fault, I challenged the snakes and they won. hahahahahahahahaha I won more then I lost and by a lot, only losing at this actually counts.

The interesting part is, I took two bites at home, I was envenomated with both, and nine bites in the field and only one envenomation.

And no, I do not think I am immune or whatever, I was lucky and do not want to keep testing that. A lot of my peers also take bites and in most cases all were lucky(mild bites). Most just keep herping(a bunch of boneheads)

I have really fast hands and when young had no problem snatching rattlesnakes behind the head. I soon learned that was not good for them. As we all should know, live by the sword, die by the sword. I took my losses.

In the field we have all stepped on, sat on, leaned on and rolled around with rattlesnakes, and so far, no one was bitten that way. I now wear my motorcycle boots(tall) while hoggin, as I have stepped on three mohaves(in thick plant cover).
Cheers

I was never bitten on study sites, or working with hots at zoos or Ross Allens, keeping or milking them in the lab. I do know how to use tools. The bites were what I said, me challenging the snakes.

With that in mind, you can see how I have the opinion hogs are harmless, I pretty much think rattlesnakes are that way too. Elapids, no way am I going to take a bite. hahahahahaha Cheers

Greg, you must be doing something better than the so called experts then! I would think anyone that actually gets bit by a hot is definitely doing something wrong. Once maybe, twice that's pushing it, three or more well they are careless and shouldn't be around snakes that are just out of their league! It just shows inexperience and over zealous behavioral on their part to put oneself at such risk, probably others for that matter too.

Probably should keep Rosy's or maybe Garters, try to work up to the hot's that way.

I will tell you something, when I die, all I want is to have lived. and I have. Been all over the world herping, with all manner of animals and reptiles. I want to experience all of it, and I have, what about you? So get out and live, then come back to me and we can talk

I actually havent been bit in over ten years, but like Frank all my bites but one came from me testing the snakes and testing my ability. I think I have won far more than I have lost as well

I think in the end I have won them all, simply because I have no lasting damage from any of the bites I have taken from a hot.

Now the worse bite I got was completely my fault. I was putting a big female pecos copperhead in a probing tube, and she filled up with air without me paying attention. I ended up putting her in a bit to big of a tube, she deflated herself, turned around, stuck her head out and nibbled my thumb. I actually saw it coming, and even told my partner I was about to take a bite. I just didnt want to hurt the animal by throwing the tube down to avoid the bite. It all happened so quick, and that was the choice I made. Sacrifice myself for the animals I love. Plus I was the one that was messing with her, so should I have injured her to avoid hurting myself?

more...

It isnt at all about inexperience. I have experience in lots of african hots, and I do everything in my power to avoid messing with most of them period. Taking a bite from one of them would most likely end bad. Whether it be in death, or severe damage to my body I just dont risk it. In the words of my late and great friend Bill Haas, you cant love and dedicated your life to these animals without one day taking a bite. I think Bill successfully took more bites from a greater list of species than anyone in the world. He also injected himself daily with increasing dosages of venom. This man took bites from everything from cobras, mambas, vipers, to rattlers etc.

Like Frank I choose to live and experience. In the end Ill bet we will have a hell of a lot more stories to tell then you, even if that means a shorter life lol.

No all joking aside though I do find most North American hots to be mellow if you are easy with them, all except for south pacific rattlers. I havent met one I was comfortable tailing, but thats the exception.

Will

I didn't know there were rattlesnakes in the south pacific? hahahahahahahahaha, you mean Helleri?

I tailed a large adult Helleri once. And I learned a lesson, as its head passed my hand, I decided to let go and not do that again, EVER.

Also, did you ever tail a pygmy rattlesnake, I would pay to see that. Or a twinspot, good luck with that. Oh yea, my blacktail bite was from tailing, but not exactly, in fact it was about as funny as it get. I was with an Ozzie fella and he wanted to see a decent sized rattlesnake. We found one in a tree, then uncharacteristically it shot out of the tree and into a rock crevice. So I pulled it out by the tail. and went to toss it in the open. but my Rossi's failed me and I slipped and tossed that sucker strait up in the air and it hit me on the way down. nothing touched but the fangs. hahahahahahahahahaha to bad it wasn't filmed. Rossi's are ozzie boots that are slip on with elastic bands, the bands got old and loose and the boot turned on me when I posted that foot on loose rubble. Blame the tools I tell you.

Like you no lasting damage and great memories to laugh at. Best wishes

Just put toad juice on my John Thomas!!
I let 3 adult females sink their teeth in for a full 3 minutes.
It's definitely getting bigger.
I would post pics but I don't want to put you all to shame.

I'm not sure if it's because they're venomous or I just got overly excited.