Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering, I do that a lot. What people thought of stress and how it works with our snakes.

As you know, I come from a totally different background, so forgive me.

It seems that some folks, dismiss or ignore, this aspect of animal behavior. please understand, its common for that to happen. In fact, we are taught to do that.(to ignore behavior and related stress)

It seems that the hog revolution occurred at a time of shoe/sweater box availability and keeping. And that's handy and it works. The drawback is, observation. As a keeper, you cannot see what is going on between normal events like feeding crapping, growing, breeding etc. You know, the behaviors that lead to those events.

many keepers here do not know of anything else, so their base of knowledge and way of thinking is centered in this area.

Please understand, its not about right or wrong, or about any keeper changing anything. its about the hogs, keepers will be keepers and do what they want anyway.

One keeper thought biting a finger is not stressful, another keeper did. My question is not about who's right, but more about what is stress, for the animal, in nature, in captivity, in a big cage, in a shoebox etc.

of course I have my opinion(who would have thunk) As usual, I am always questioning my own opinion, so please contribute and post your feelings on stress, positive or negative.

The hog in this pic, from an anthropromorphic viewpoint, seems to be enjoying looking out over a large open area. Its head is up, its calm, it looks like its wondering about crossing the road, and its enjoying the sunset.

Or this snake, coiled tight, security at its back, open area to watch. content.

or this snake, crawling along with some hognose agenda, and not a worry in its head. Thanks so much

First off, I'm not wanting to get into another pissing match, I didn't even want to get into the one with Lance, so this will be my only post on this matter. Some people are obviously not reading my posts carefully and then they make wild assumptions and accusations based on what they want to believe, not based on what I actually wrote.

One keeper thought biting a finger is not stressful, another keeper did.

I understand that it keeps being implied that I said that a hognose biting a finger is not stressful. Where exactly did I say that? Any actual quotes available? This is what I wrote exactly:

"I would tend to believe that an eating response is far less stressful than an animal feeling the need to bite out of aggression or defense....I highly doubt that hognose are under unnatural and potentially unhealthful stress when in eating mode and biting into intended prey (or unintended prey such as a human's finger)" - Link

If read, everyone can clearly see that even I suggested that there could be a potential for stress, just not unnatural or unhealthy stress within the natural realm of stress caused by such an event.

So the question is, do I think there can be a potential of stress for a snake biting something or someone? As quoted from my previous post, yes, I do believe that there is that potential. Do I think it's unnatural or harmful? No, I do not believe that a bite resulting from a feeding response is going to prove harmfully stressful to the animal.

And please notice that I underlined the words believe and doubt in the paragraphs above to emphasize that these statements are simply my opinion. I never once stated that these were facts even though I've also been accused as saying that they were as well.

If people would spend more time carefully reading what has been carefully written, then a lot of this silly fighting and finger pointing would not even occur, we could instead try to have a potentially intelligent conversation and move forward.
-----
Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Hi Troy, please, stop with all that. I asked questions, its not pissing match, I already explained, its not right or wrong.

We all have opinions and like the wonderful thread below is what I am after.

I want to, and have others be passionate and voice your thoughts.

Can you do that?

I only read your first paragraph, If there is something of value under that let me know.

I am not use how the folks here work(you) but it seems some are one way willies. I am not, you are welcome to do whatever you like. You are indeed welcome to ignore any and all things I say. That is you prerogative.

IT seems that people here either have to believe something or not. Again, I was taught to be aware of something, not necessarily believe it or not.

The approach of recipe is exactly that, the need to believe in one thing, one degree, one way, etc. which is not me.

For instance, nesting, I brought it up I offered ideas, and reported that snakes can lay the day after shedding. Some folks tried it, and reported the same. Even reporting(Gregg) how wonderful it was to see a female cover her eggs. Even reported that those females seemed stronger. That's all I am after.

Truthfully it boggles my mind that anyone would not want to make nesting easier for the females. Again, my opinion.

Also, I have great friends whom I love, that can't tell which end to offer a mouse too. And friends that do not keep snakes. Even rare friends that still kill snakes when they see them.

So whether or not we agree is not important. What is important is whether or not, my snakes can benefit from you or anyone on this forum. Or your snakes benefit for anything I may bring up.

I wish you great health and happiness, now lets agree or disagree on STRESS!!!!!!

Please, I was not talking about the finger incident. But you can include it. I am talking about STRESS.

Your finger incident brought out that each keeper has their own idea as to what stress is.

You made it clear the have opinions on what is and what is not stressful. I will add, what happens when the hog realizes, its your finger and not a mouse??

I will say, the first step is understanding that stress to them is not the same as it is to us. Not anymore. In the past, any thing new was of danger. When we were primitive peoples, so we reacted in a much greater way. Stress can be live or death. Not that it causes it, but that it often causes it, naturally. And we are still dealing with wild natural animals.

I was hoping that someone would break it down to Behavioral stress, physical stress, I would bring up emotional stress, and most likely I should. Which could be anything of a non physical contact that supports a physical response. Fear is an emotion, etc. Adrenalin release is a physical response to fear, an emotion. etc.

With animals, stress is like a computer, its either 1 or 0, positive or negative. Maybe this will start off a conversation.

First off then what do you call this reply? You wanted it just as much as i did calling me out!, Difference is i'm honest to myself, Very funny that this is going to be your last post on this subject, Your brain washing tactics the way you write to confuse don't work on me Troy and they do not work on frank either because we do read carefully, We both care, As others do too, We have to either believe what you say or we are wrong by default our experience and understanding is VOID in your mind.

The way you write your replys are cunning but i'm afraid you have failed trying to win this arguement,And now you underline words to show others that its only your opinion not FACTUAL INFORMATION,Your answer to stress was this qoute: No, I can't imagine that the snake would be too happy from the experience as it was hoping to eat and all it got was a taste. BUT on the same post you write: I've been keeping snakes for over 20 years and have been bitten countless times, I've never noticed any of them suffering from undue stress from having bit me.

So to cut a long story short you are Hipocrite and Wrong, You accept stress can be caused but at the same time you see no stress? HOGNOSES are experts in STRESS there whole DEFENSIVE behaviour is based on IT, They show us VERY clearly when they are stressed, You keep forgetting the human element in all this and the danger of what can happen when someone does not know what they are doing and the consequences Advice you GIVE may cause, You have a responsibility to the public and you let your own agenda and forum politics get in the way, VERY selfish. In this post you accepted Stress more than before, Its your way of showing you are right Nr. 1.

I'll go with what Frank says on this, Going to Agree to Disagree on STRESS or Envenomation (Health/Age/Weight related allergic reaction to the protein in mildly toxic venom what i think happened,Read John Berrys Book Guys on the subject teeth/venom make your own mind up...

P.s This is the real reason Gregg is now staying out of these posts backing up his buddy, He has a reputaion to lose in Europe, Troy does not.. So has to be more careful whether what he is writing is RIGHT, And Troy does not just deal in hognoses so he will feel nothing from it but Greggs world extends past the states and its already having a effect in 48hrs, IT went off like a bomb last night on facebook, As i added all these posts, including the one that was deleted but saved it when i saw what was happening..117 likes and rising of which more than half are Herpers... Troy = lol right now, Were you at the show this month in Hamm Gregg? It was awesome got some cool hogs that i am flying over any day now back to the states always the most annoying part as you probly may know, As some of you all know Gregg is in John Berrys Hognose Morphs book, What i learnt about hognoses, from John and other Herpetoculturists in England, Germany and Holland, I am lucky of knowing though shows and reptile seminars that i attended over YEARS, Troy is fundamentally wrong about stress in Hognoses, Envenomation is more tricky and is very well still ongoing debate as John puts it..But again read the book and make your own mind up don't let Troy do it for you, Deep down Gregg you know Troy is wrong in this (Stress) in hognoses, Of course in his last post he trys to make himself look like he does lol but does it in a way that suits him no honesty, If you think anything of John as a Herpetoculturist....... But you are just are hoping this will blow over, Instead for once to question him like you ALWAYS love doing to us, Or do you share his views on this?

I will skip all the name calling and agenda stuff and go to the stressful part.(another joke)

Your absolutely correct, Hognose and their defense is based on stress. Anything that induces hissing, flattening of the head, or that cobra imitation, is STRESS. The reaction is the animals way of coping with the stress.

I think and only think, that Troy only considers it stress if it alters the physical condition immediately. Like hitting them in the head with a hammer. While that is stress, its a little insensitive. hmmmmmmmmm another joke

How many of you have noticed that when one bites your finger thinking its prey, will not eat right after letting go? With varanids, they often shake their heads and push out anything in their mouth as if we taste really nasty. Carry on fellas, no punching please.

If a subject has to do with the animals, no one posts, if its about eachother, its a madhouse, if its about genetics(morphs) theres some talk. And folks wonder where I get my ideas from.