Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know my bite thread caused a great debate as well as some fueled baiting and fighting amongst us which was unfortunate. My intention is not, and has not been to cause a divide amongst us, but to bring forth information so that we can be more knowledgeable about the potential effects caused by bites from our beloved hognose.

While perusing another forum, I came across another link of a reported Western Hognose bite that had a similar reaction as has been reported in the past. Unfortunately, this report isn't specific like past reports have been, but it is descriptive enough as to what the person endured and it's got some pictures to back up the person's claim as to the effects of their bite.

Scroll down past the Mangrove Pit Viper video to read the story...
http://jerrythesnakeman.com/photo-gallery/venomous-snakes/
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Sorry but I'm a bit confused about that post.
I see a hognose attached to a thumb.
Then I see an index finger with a bite mark and swelling.
Also, the hognose is attached to a right hand and the pic of the hand with a bite on the index finger is a left hand.
When I see pics like that I don't even want to bother with reading the story.

That's a great observation John! Like I said, unfortunately the account was not well written out and obviously the pictures aren't telling the whole story, or they are confusing/contradicting to the incident being told, of that I will agree with you. I guess the only way to find out why the pictures seem to contradict each other would be to ask the site owner and see if we can get a clarification of the story.

From reading the story, I can only imagine two possibilities of why there is a contradiction of the pictures being shown...

#1 She said she had been bitten 2 different times (I assume on different dates), so the thumb bite could be from the first incident and the index finger bite could be from the 2nd reported incident. This is what I believe to be the case but that is merely a presumption based on what she claims.

#2 She said that the hog was deeply embedded in her finger and that they had to push him off, which leaves much to the imagination how they did this, but she could have pushed him off with her thumb ending up having the mouth on her thumb for a short duration. However, I don't think this is what happened.

Regardless, it's a short story but obviously we can see a swollen hand and bite marks on the index finger, the one she claimed gave her the worst reaction of the 2 bites, so that's what I'm really paying attention to.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Theres nothing to stir, I think its been known since the late 1800's that hogs had large rear teeth and were mildly venomous, but not dangerous. As are so many other "harmless" snakes.

What seems to be lost is the definition of harmless. It becomes a bit of a choice. A hog bite or a medium to large boa, I would take a hog bite anyday. A hog bite or a large coachwhip or eastern black racer, again the hog. A hog bite or a friggin four foot or larger watersnake, hmmmmmmmm hog bite. A hog bit or a snapping turtle, hog wins again. A hog bite or a rosy boa, hmmmmmmm the boa wins this one, they don't have those extremely large rear teeth.

I am still waiting for someone to report a serious bite, like losing a finger, hand, arm or their life. Maybe the use of antivenom is telling. If antivenom is not required ever, then maybe hog bites are not considered dangerous or threatening. Or even harmful. Therefore, they are considered harmless.

Again, even the early descriptions of hogs, included the fact that they were mildly venomous/ toxic but not poisonous. Those terms are not exacting, so they are often interchangeable.

So are the terms Anery/e and axanthic. There is a real possibility that there are hogs lacking red and having yellow. Time will tell. Best wishes

The story lacks credibility.
Your story/report does not.
However, I do not believe that hogs are venomous.
There's a difference between venomous, toxic, allergic reactions, and sensitivity due to compromised immune system, medication, etc.

Besides the fact that it is extremely hard to get bitten by a hognose, I believe more bites result in no reaction. This is not true of truly venomous reptiles such as rattlesnakes. Even the so called "dry bite" from an adult rattlesnake requires medical attention. The slightest scratch from a fang requires medical attention. I'm not aware of a single hognose bite that required medical attention, not one.

I was bitten by a rock rattlesnake (lepidus) on the finger, only one fang hit me, the other was just off the finger. I had a drop of blood telling me that it punctured. Other than some tingling up my hand and arm, nothing happened. Dry bite I assume? I did go to the emergency room in case, but since no symptoms manifested (had been 2 hours by then), they sent me home.

An old herper from back in the day showed me a hognose that bit him on the ankle. He did not pull the snake off right away, and it chewed down far enough to get the fangs in. This guy's ankle swelled up pretty big for almost 2 days, then returned to normal. I saw a pic of the swelling.

In conclusion, I'd rather have that lepidus bite than the hog bite, lol.

Thanks for sharing your story!

An old herper from back in the day showed me a hognose that bit him on the ankle. He did not pull the snake off right away, and it chewed down far enough to get the fangs in. This guy's ankle swelled up pretty big for almost 2 days, then returned to normal. I saw a pic of the swelling.

Too bad you don't have a copy of that picture, that would've been interesting to see.

As I've said before, I don't actually think that Western Hognose venom is particularly dangerous as, to my knowledge, there are no reported cases of people being seriously injured or suffered long term effects from a hognose envenomation, just cases of extreme swelling and pain that last for several days and eventually subside.

With that said, despite my interesting experience from my hognose bite, I think I'd still rather suffer a bite from a hognose than from a rattlesnake any day.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I am going to post a couple of links to bites. But first...

What is the difference between venomous and "toxic" in your opinion?

Not believeing that hognose snakes are indeed venomous is just as bad as not believing the world is round. You have all the evidence, bite reports, VENOM analysis studies but a few find it hard to come to terms with the facts. It is very odd behavior to me.

Anyway, here are a couple of links. Actually 8 other accounts of hognose bites with lots of swelling. These links do not include Troys bite or the infamous Herpnet bite.

http://www.[url ban].com/forums/heterodon/92706-hognose-venom-debate-over.html

http://www.[url ban].com/forums/heterodon/92593-hognose-bite.html

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/836891-wehey-hognose-bite.html

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37267

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2239

http://southwesternherp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1337982785/2

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/586889-hognose-bite.html

Scroll to post #26 http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/586889-hognose-bite.html

It is not hard to get bitten by a hognose. Anyone who says they do not bite in self defense does not have enough snakes in their collection. I have numerous hogs that will bite while being handled.

I also think you and many associate venomous with dangerous. All spiders are venomous but very few are dangerous. Maybe only 4 or 5 species are medically significant.

Hognose snakes are venomous but far from dangerous.

And about your dry bite theory. Dry bites from viperids, crotalids, and elapids my require medical attention. However, that medical attention does not involve administration of antivenin. The treatment is for the deep puncture wounds left by the large fangs. I have been dealing with venomous reptiles for many years. They do not treat you for a venomous bite if it is dry. They will keep an eye on it for a few hours to make sure there was no venom injected. In fact all bites are monitored before any antivenin is administered unless the signs are apparent when brought into the ER.

"Not believeing that hognose snakes are indeed venomous is just as bad as not believing the world is round. You have all the evidence, bite reports, VENOM analysis studies but a few find it hard to come to terms with the facts. It is very odd behavior to me."
That's a bit offensive just because I have a different opinion than you. I really don't think that the topic of hognose being venomous is as significant as the world being round.

I agree with John Q here. This is a game of words. And worse, words that are not exacting or taken in their exact meaning.

Harmless is a cover word, its based on results, not difinitions below that. Are the bites harmful or not. Also, localized swelling with no loss of tissue etc, is not harmful. Compared to massive swelling and systematic reactions with loss of tissue and possible life.

Take a bite from a twenty foot python, the snake is harmless venom wise, but the bite is not harmless and will result in far more damage then many venomous bites.

The reality is, many non venous snake bites, boas or colubrids, can result in swelling, but normally not serious. Hogs maybe a little higher on that scale, and it may be due to those large teeth, allowing saliva to penetrate deeper or the makeup of that saliva. Which then can be considered toxic(causes harm) or venom. The truth is, take your pick. In the end, a hog bite is no lep bite or any other crot bite.

A hog bite fits in with many other rear fanged bites, but not serious like some. Cheers

"It is not hard to get bitten by a hognose. Anyone who says they do not bite in self defense does not have enough snakes in their collection. I have numerous hogs that will bite while being handled."
I think that you are misinterpreting the data that is right in front of you. Not sure what other species you keep but during the first 5 years that I got into this hobby I worked with as many different snakes as I could. I kept hognose, kings, milks, rosy boas, corns, pits, etc. I've lived in the same area for 35 years during which time I've had field experience with kings, milks, pits, and a few rattlesnakes. Any one of them is more willing to bite you than a hognose. As babies, hognose flip over and play dead. Ever see any one of these other species do that? No, they strike and bite when threatened. Pits can be just as showy as a hognose but they will gladly strike and bite. It's well documented that hognose strike with their mouth closed. Can't say that about the others.
I believe what you are saying but I also believe it's their conditioning. The box opens and here comes the food. Let them settle down, pick them up, and they are usually quite calm. If they pick up the scent of food, the slightest scent, they may bite. I believe they are in feed mode as soon as you open their box. Those types of bites are quite different from defensive bites, the quick strike and bite. Defensive strikes would not involve latching on, working the jaws, and trying to swallow a finger.
It's obviously possible to get bit by a hognose but those bites are more related to feeding than to defending themselves.

I would like to hear from someone like Dan Eby that field collects. How do they behave in the field? showy, strike with their mouth closed? or are they more like pits?

I am not Dan, but in the last ten months, I have seen well over 100 hogs in the field. While I have not handled all of them, I have moved lots and lots off roads. Or picked up individuals of interest that already went into their craziness behavior.

Not a single one attempted to bite. As mentioned, a percentage of the kings bite, same with gophers/bulls, garders, etcs. Almost all crots bite, some don't. hmmmmmmmm that's how I get bitten, trusting the ones that don't. Other then the last paragraph, the above is a report.

I also agree with John about the captives that bite Gregg, its more about conditioning and not a natural defensive behavior. They are conditioned that when the door/lid is opened, food is coming, and sometimes they anticipate(jump the gun).

The reality is, in captivity, it doesn't matter if its a conditioned response or a defensive behavior. The result is the same, a keeper can receive a bite. Conditioned or otherwise. Its a bite. Next question

It also doesn't matter if you call saliva, toxic, or venom, or causes an allergic response. It/they can express a reaction. The responses do not tend to be serious to any meaningful degree. No matter what you call the antigen.

Bites from any colubrid, can result in harm. But its not normal.
In perspective, hobbies of all manner, can and do injure hands and fingers. Mechanics, construction work, heck even dancing, can cause minor to worse hand injuries. Once I dislocated my finger on a girls breast while dancing(please don't ask). It became swollen and tender for days.

Now if your going to ask what a person would rather do, I would rather hurt my finger/hand, on a girls breast, while dancing, then have a hognose bite, but that's just me. Cheers

>>>http://www.[url ban].com/forums/heterodon/92706-hognose-venom-debate-over.html

http://www.[url ban].com/forums/heterodon/92593-hognose-bite.html

oops.....what's the banned site that's not showing up?

oops.....what's the banned site that's not showing up?

It's www.s_s_n_a_k_e_s_s.com (Remove the underscores and put it in place of the banned url).
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

>>>>>>>It's www.s_s_n_a_k_e_s_s.com (Remove the underscores and put it in place of the banned url).>>>>>>>

Well bummer because it's not working either! must have taken down their forum.

Well bummer because it's not working either! must have taken down their forum.

Works fine for me, you must not be doing it right.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

ahhhhhh well after I saw ur post.....I tried again.....it was the last s on the end that got me.....gee's what a dumb web address! imo, of course!

Now curious as to why it would be automatically banned? Any particular reason?

ahhhhhh well after I saw ur post.....I tried again.....it was the last s on the end that got me.....

Glad you figured it out!

Now curious as to why it would be automatically banned? Any particular reason?

I don't honestly know. This is the first time I've seen this kind of behavior here on KS when showing urls. More than likely it's just a personal issue between the two sites like I've seen on several other sites that don't get along and end up banning each other. It's a shame when personal politics ends up affecting the ability to share information between sites and members. However, it is what it is.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Troy, your doing the exact same thing. You ban me because I do not agree with you on SOME things. I don't know you, and you don't know me.

You seem to live in a world of digits and not the real world(disappearing quickly) You have a screen image to protect and I seem to poke holes in it.(find your weaknesses)

Whats odd is, no ones got it all, we all have weaknesses.

I come from a different point then most here, The hogs in nature, and bring that to captivity. You come from hogs as a tool to support genetics. Theres a wide gap in the middle.

That gap is worthy of discussion. Because we discuss it, does not mean anyone has to do it. But you won't even discuss it.

So you are exactly like what you critize KS over.

In your case, you make it personal, and my guess is you do that because you have not other option.

Discussion is having different viewpoints. Discussion is not automatically believing or ever believing. So I ask, what are you afraid of????

"What is the difference between venomous and "toxic" in your opinion?"
In the case of a venomous bite, the response or reaction is consistent, always the same. Venom works different among the various venomous snakes but when bitten, we all respond in the same manner to that specific venom. It might be tissue damage, blood cell damage, paralysis, etc. Using a rattlesnake as an example, we all require medical treatment, antivenin. Other than a dry bite, do you know of anyone that was bitten by a venomous snake, got a does of venom, and had no reaction? none?

A substance may be completely harmless,beneficial to us, or only result in a minor reaction when it is toxic. We all need to drink water but even water can be toxic. A few years back a radio station held a contest to drink a large amount of water in a very short time. A contestant died. A single bee sting from an african bee would not be a problem for most of us. However, there are documented deaths of individuals that were stung hundreds of times. Is the sting from that bee venomous or toxic?
Google Erin Brockovich, toxic not venomous.

As far as hognose bites, why is it that bites do not result in the same reaction every time? The venom from venomous snakes works in very specific ways, dependent on the species, and always results in the same response or reaction.

That's a bit offensive just because I have a different opinion than you. I really don't think that the topic of hognose being venomous is as significant as the world being round.

Find it offensive if you like. I really do not understand where this world is going. People take offence to the slightest thing.

Anyway, the thing is, this is not an opinion based topic. Opinions are only relevant when there are no facts for either side to fall back on. In this case, there are numerous bite reports and even some where allergy meds were given/taken and had no effect. Actual milking from Heterodon nasicus Duvernoy's glands (which are indeed venom glands) and venom analysis has been done. Venom compounds, proteins, amino acids, and so on, have been identified. So, based on those facts, how anyone can "believe" they are not venomous is beyond me. This sound more like a religious debate than a factual scientific discussion.

I think that you are misinterpreting the data that is right in front of you. Not sure what other species you keep but during the first 5 years that I got into this hobby I worked with as many different snakes as I could. I kept hognose, kings, milks, rosy boas, corns, pits, etc. I've lived in the same area for 35 years during which time I've had field experience with kings, milks, pits, and a few rattlesnakes. Any one of them is more willing to bite you than a hognose. As babies, hognose flip over and play dead. Ever see any one of these other species do that? No, they strike and bite when threatened. Pits can be just as showy as a hognose but they will gladly strike and bite. It's well documented that hognose strike with their mouth closed. Can't say that about the others

What "data" and I misinterpreting? There is no data on hognose bite frequency. My list of species I have worked with/kept is extensive but not important in this discussion. We are talking about hognose snakes and not any other species. You can not compare hogs to pits or corns or kings. Those species strike and constrict their prey. Hognose do not. If their feeding response is so different, why cant their defensive response be? Sure many hogs mock strike (if you can call what they do striking), but many also bite.

I believe what you are saying but I also believe it's their conditioning. The box opens and here comes the food. Let them settle down, pick them up, and they are usually quite calm. If they pick up the scent of food, the slightest scent, they may bite. I believe they are in feed mode as soon as you open their box. Those types of bites are quite different from defensive bites, the quick strike and bite. Defensive strikes would not involve latching on, working the jaws, and trying to swallow a finger.
It's obviously possible to get bit by a hognose but those bites are more related to feeding than to defending themselves.

I need no lesson in handling hogs. Some do have a strong feed response as you state. However, I am not talking about feed response bites. I am talking about clear defensive bites where threat displays have been put on right before. With that being said, a bite is a bite no matter what the trigger is.

Defensive bites can and do involve latching on. Usually the first reaction we as humans have is to grab the snake when it bites down or we are holding it at the time of the bite. If we have a grip around the snake during a defensive bite, it will not let go. More times than not, if you put the snake down on a flat surface and let go of it, the snake will let go of you right away. Bite and latch on is indeed part of their defensive behavior depending on the situation.

A substance may be completely harmless,beneficial to us, or only result in a minor reaction when it is toxic. We all need to drink water but even water can be toxic. A few years back a radio station held a contest to drink a large amount of water in a very short time. A contestant died. A single bee sting from an african bee would not be a problem for most of us. However, there are documented deaths of individuals that were stung hundreds of times. Is the sting from that bee venomous or toxic?
Google Erin Brockovich, toxic not venomous.

So toxic, in your OPINION, means harmless or only causes a mild reaction? You do realize that the study of things which include poisons, venoms, and other dangerous compounds is called toxicology, right? Venom is a mix of toxic compounds. If it enters your blood stream it is toxic to you. Are you trying to say that bees are not venomous either based on Chromium toxicity? LOL...

As far as hognose bites, why is it that bites do not result in the same reaction every time? The venom from venomous snakes works in very specific ways, dependent on the species, and always results in the same response or reaction.

There are many factors as to why you do not see the same reaction in all bites. Main one being, the amount of venom introduced to the blood stream. The amount delivered in a bite can range from none to enough to cause a reaction. Also, just because you do not see a reaction to a bite, this does not meam that there is no chemical reaction to the venom going on.

Another consideration.
How many people are bitten, have a reaction, and do not say anything or even report it? With all this BS about how they are not venomous, there would be no reason to report it.

With hogs growing in popularity, we will see many more bites and more and more that result in reactions like Troys and like the other 8 links I posted.

Our debate could go on for some time. I have limited time for forums. Someone else has provided me with some info that may change my position. I would love to hear from field collectors about defensive bites. I'd also like to hear from someone that feeds toads and hear what they have to say about toads that are bit and then released. The data I referred to is your experience. You used that info to claim defensive bites but now you want to throw it out.
I really don't have time for this but will make the time to read
more. Perhaps changing my position but I don't believe everything I read on the internet. LOL
Discussion Over

Dude, live involves some risk. Troys bite is and was harmless. Again, I bent my finger on a girls breast(while dancing) that was worse then that.

I do understand ,there are folks out there that believe they should not allow pain or painful, to any degree, so they avoid life and living.

In the case of hogs, they can have a little tiny sting to their bites, if you don't want that, don't get bitten or get rid of snakes.

I was herping in texas once, met this local Texan. He said he was immune to rattlesnake bites, I asked how did he know that. He said, I was bitten in the calf and it did not swell up. I looked at his calf and said, How could you tell, his calf was GIANT HUGE SWOLLEN appearing, hahahahahahaha thank goodness he was a really nice guy. Cheers

The problem is degree, even other species of colubrids have those qualities in their saliva. All saliva has destructive qualities. Some break down sugars and carbs, others have different abilities. Venoms are merely evolved saliva glands, that have attained "other" goals then simple digestion. As in, to immobilize prey. Which has not been debated here.

Since this conversation started, I have made a point to observe hog feeding on live prey, and not once did the act of biting and chewing, immobilize the prey(yet, still looking) In all cases, the prey was swallowed alive and kicking. This includes lizards, mice and toads.

All in all, literature calls hognose HARMLESS, mildly toxic or venomous, etc, but harmless where the bites do not REQUIRE medical attention.

For John, you are misinformed about rattlesnake bites and venom. Indeed each individual snake, and victims have a range of reactions. This is widely known. In all cases of rattlesnake species, the bites(venom injected) have a huge range of effects. from non serious, to very serious and death. There are many variables, which include individual tolerance and toxicity. Best wishes.

I agree with you Troy, I would take a hog bite anyday. hahahahahaha

I recommend you getting yourself tested for allergies to hog venom/saliva/toxin, as normally, if it was an allergic reaction, the next bite will be much worse. A simple skin test will tell.

If you have developed an allergy all you will need most likely is a Epipen. It would be wise to have yourself tested. Cheers

While I agree with you on hogs, your position of bites from such species as rattlesnakes are a little off.

My history with rattlesnakes is, 11 total bites(a fang puncturing the skin) a couple were sratches.

Of those 11 bites, 3 where hot bites(not dry) of those three, two did not required medical attention. Two resulted in localized swelling to above the wrist, the worse bite swelling to the shoulder.

My first bite received three vials of antivenom. the second and third, no treatment. None of the dry bites received any treatment and received no medical attention.

I have many many friends that have been bitten by rattlesnakes and my experience was similar to most. Serious bites from rattlesnakes, extensive tissue loss up to death are rare, but can and do occur.

Your right, normal hog bites, while some have some small reaction, are normally not serious and do not require medical attention.

Also, I do not agree with your report on Troys bite. It was not well reported, it just sounded that way. That's his stype. To sound convincing, but not necessarily accurate.

All venomous bites have blood work done, that is to determine what is going on, in the body. If its an allergic reaction, the blood would contain high levels of histamines. This was not done, so the report it based on assumption and not fact. In his case, we do not KNOW, it the reaction was based on a toxic substance or an allergic response. While the report was fine, the conclusion was based on assumption. Which pretty much makes the report invalid. I admire Troy for reporting the bite, and he did a good job at that. He had no proof what so ever as to what caused the swelling. His opinion was based on an assumption. Can localize swelling occur from hog bites, yes it can.

He may have been right or may have been wrong, who knows! Cheers