Reptile & Amphibian Forums

of hypomelanism is the reduction of black melanin, not
the complete lack of it. It has been my experience that if
what would be black is there, but muted (blue,grey or purplish.)
Then that animal is usually is a T positive albino. I have seen this in many species of milk snakes, king snake, boas, and bull snakes. I'm not a geneticist but I have a friend that is and a better friend that could've and should've been because he understands genetics better than anyone I know. If that is the case then the Trumbower hypo isn't a hypo at all. Examples




Last photo by Mike Russo.
I have not fond the Trumbower female in the first photo to have red pupils yet. Just my humble opinion...

The Trumbower strain seems to be incredibly variable,and makes me wonder if there is another strain involved in the T. Morton animals(?)... That grey band is off the hook!!! Can you imagine flipping a rock,and seeing that! I'd probably need at least one adult diaper!

Two questions for you guys...

First, how then does Hypo effect the Albino to make a "Sunglow"? I have a female who is a Hypo-Albino (out of a Hypo Axanthic Whitesided het albino and a Hypo het Albino). I cannot really see a difference between her and other Albinos... and I missing something??

Second, what species is the last snake in the pictures?? Very beautiful snake!

The hypo increases the amount of lavender on an albino. Here is a picture of an albino and a sunglow together that I hatched last season. And pictures of this season's albino and sunglow from two separate pairings.

This is an interesting concept...the one of T albino. I wonder if there is a simple test to see if it is hypomelanism or T albinism. Then again, I have seen some example of Trubowers that have no black, only light browns. Billy has one. He posts here every now and again under the name Discern. My Trumbowers have no black on them. Both those I hatched last season and this season.

Albino vs. Sunglow

Albino

Sunglow

Tumbower hypo

Lucas I can see a difference in yours. I could not in mine, in fact I have albinos that are bright then then sunglows 2013 hatchlings.

Interesting topic, and one that may bring many more in the future!

My Trumbower hypo bull. She is 9 this year:

Tripped out hypo bull that also looks albino in some ways. He is 10:

For fun...

My male adult Deppei Jani:

Stillwater, OK hypo bull:

My two outta 3 favorite bulls in my entire collection:

Reddish bull, poss het WS:

Yellow bull:

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Genesis 1:1

Nice animals Billy
The Trumbower is and Jani are exceptional!

Thanks bro!!
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Genesis 1:1

I produced Albino and Hybinos Bulls this year. I cant tell them apart. Maybe as adult you can, I'm sure on the adults.

Thanks jason

The first 2 pics are from Hypo X Ivory breeding there for Sunglow/Hybinos

The bottom 2 pics are from Axanthic Patternless X Triple het(Albino, Axanthic and Whitesided)

I think 3f and 3m are both Sunglows (hybinos). Not sure on the first two.

I know the camera always changes the real colors of my snakes, BUT... to me, the sunglows have that kinda washed out appearance. The albinos look brighter orange.

did some quick digging. It seems that some use the term interchangeably i.e. hognose breeders.

I was hoping you'd post on Matty's question. The pics really help illustrate the difference,and I've always thought seeing all the babies at hatching would make it much easier to tell them apart. Billy & Jason both have another different looking type of hypo as well,that almost looks albinistic,(actually except for the eyes,Billy's looks just like what I would expect a T positive albino bull to look like.) I'm sure you probably remember which one I'm talking about,it even has purplish markings on the tail,instead of black.

Thank you! The pictures really do help!

When adult, my animals will look similar to the ones Billy posted. I have a few customers that have sent me pictures of how theirs are turning out. One looks really close to Billy's already.

The one Jason posted that looks albino is really nice!

Hello

I'm no expert, just a hobbyist. The pics I'm posting are pics I took. I would like you to go through the list of pics and name which type of Hypo and or species of snake and label T+ or Hypo

Just for fun guys.

pic 1

pic 2

pic 3

pic4

pic5

pic6

pic7

pic8

pic9

pic 10

pic 11

pic 12

pic 13

pic 14

pic 15

pic 15

pic 16

pic 17

pic 18

I'm thinking 16 & 18 are Affinis (Sonoran ) the other two look like Sayi (15 is the one I believe is like Billy's that I mentioned in the previous post.) 17 is an aberrant yellow "Trumbower".

All are variable, beautiful specimens, especially the abberrant yellow hypo, but I might have a biased opinion since he;s Uh hum..... MINE!! LOL Seriously, I'm loving the genetic posts, learning so much!!

These are all Sayi,except #10 which I think is a "rusty" Affinis,although it looks like it might be hypo as well as rusty(?)....the only ones I could be confident were Stillwater's are #7 (reasonably sure) #8 has me stumped,it looks like Sayi,but the mutation looks similar to "rusty". And short of knowing what to call the rest,I'm just going to have to go with Trumbower as a default.(various selectively bred varieties from red to yellow.)

Pretty good really.

Every animal, completely perfect, nothing else can be said!
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Genesis 1:1

If you think it really matters, shell out some money to prove that it is T albinism and not hypomelanism. I know some genetics labs that could use the work. Like I said earlier, I have seen the names used interchangeably with several species. Let's just go with the name Craig picked out and avoid the confusion.

I think Jason was just putting this up for fun,but we're all here to learn,and discuss topics that pertain to reaching a better understanding of the animals we're interested in working with. Sometimes going with the flow,and never being able to reevaluate and advance our understanding of the things we think we "know",is precisely what causes the confusion in the first place. I find the topic very interesting regardless of what they're called. (I'd hate to look at this facet of the hobby 20 years from now and see "platty-daddy-spinner-kingpin" bulls! *lol*)
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Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

oh that wasn't directed at Jason. I am sure he doesn't think it was. If it really matters to you, call you animals T albino. Or do it like the hog and rat snake people do. Call them T albino (hypo) if you want. I am sure it will go over just as well as the "golden hypo" name did for Stillwaters. Honestly, I don't care. I will continue to call mine Trumbower hypos because that is what people know them by and Craig was the first to produce them. And until I see the genetics showing that it is an albinism, it is just hearsay.

BTW, you brought up balls. There is a ball morph called red axanthic. When it was first discovered it was thought to be recessive. After a few years of breeding, they found out it was actually a codom trait. They still call the heterozygous animals het reds because that was their original name.

Also I find it funny that so many people accept the Stillwater OK animals as "Stillwaters". The original animal was found during a rattlesnake round up so who knows where it actually originated. And several agree with that. But, because it has been called that for so many years, I still call mine Stillwaters.

I can't seem to remember posting an opinion one way or the other on the "T pos. hypo thing" in this thread(?) but thanks for weighing in. As for the BP dilemma ,heterozygotes are not limited in any way to recessive traits.(them ball python b----es be crazy! ) And I agree 100% on the Stillwater issue,there is no collection data on the original animal,just the bucket it was purchased in.

The Golden Hypo name came up because they where not pure locality any more. Just wanted put that out there.

Jason

also, KS doesn't recognize my positive signs for some reason. all of the T albinos should be Tpos.

HAHAHA! That would be about right!

I agree with you Lucas.

Unless your a biologist, your work and analogy / results will be thrown out because your a hobbyist. Just my opinion OK

Great discussion guys, very informative on questions I have had rolling around in my head.
Robert

1 Stillwater X Red
2 Stillwater X Red
3 Trumbower
4 Stillwater X Red
5 Stillwater X Red
6 Stillwater X Red
7 Trumbower
8 Stillwater X Red
9 Rusty Sonoran
10 Trumbower
11 Rusty Sonoran
12 Trumbower
13 Trumbower
14 Trumbower
15 Tumbower
16 Trumbower
17 Trumbower
18 Trumbower

See how variable both can be. Pic one of Stillwater Hypo X Red has purple coloring. I'm not going to suggest re-naming of either line. Nor do I want dis- credit anyone.

The Rustys where thrown in to mix it up.

Jason

I'm glad I didn't have any money riding on that game! (I think I was assigning the number to the wrong picture,but that sure wouldn't have saved me! ) I think you're right,and also,I don't see anything that screams albino to me,except #9 (I think) that was the most amazing to me! I can't believe that's from Stillwater!!! What ever happened to those?

T plus albinos were first proved in black rats. What people forget is that the two strains where phenotypically identical. T as a hypoish albino, I believe is somewhat a misnomer.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Although I wasn't aware of that,I remember a conversation with another breeder who mentioned something he called "leaky gene" T pos. I don't know if there's another more accurate term to describe it, but from my understanding it could explain why some T pos. animals may look more like albinos as babies,and then gain more "normal-ish" pigment once ontogenetic changes set in, which could then result in an appearence that more closely resembled hypomelanism. (?)

My understanding is that albinism results from defective production of melanin from tyrosine. The metabiloc pathways are pretty complex. The original black rat albino had didn't produce the precursor tyrosine so the process was interrupted at that level. The T plus albino looked identical but did produce tyrosine. The defect was further along in the metobolic process but the end result was the same. The popular thinking is that defects that occur further along in the metobolic process might be "leaky". Its a good theory but to my knowledge (limited) nobody has done the requisite skin test to prove it.

Point is that some of the newer more typical albinos might also be T plus. Using T plus as a descriptor might be popular and serve a purpose but without the reaction test we can't say its factual.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"Hypomelanism" isn't held to similarly strict standards,and is virtually immune to scrutiny.

Indeed. It is an indisputably broad term.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

How did they go about testing these theories??? Not being a jerk with that question just interested in knowing how they came about those findings?

Not jerkish at all. I don't recall the specifics but its listed in Dr. Bechtel's book, Reptile and Amphibian Variants: Colors, Patterns, and Scales. Here's a link:
Reptile and Amphibian Variants: Colors, Patterns, and Scales

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM