Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is in regards to "hognose snake venom." Has anyone ever actually found venom glands on hognose snakes as seen in known venomous snakes? I believe that the venom just may be a re-designed enzyme derived from bufo-toxins that has a primary function to help in digestion of the bufo-toxins in toads, and the swelling is just a side effect. I have been bitten by my western hognose (I intentionally coaxed it to bite by rubbing a mouse on my hand) and had no reaction. My western hognose feeds exclusively on feeder pinkies and fuzzies. I have coaxed a bite out of my eastern hognose by rubbing toad on my hand (it only takes amphibians) and I did get a minor reaction of localized, minimal swelling from it. Granted venom is just enzymes technically, but I believe this mis-conceived venom isn't actually designed to be venom and that it just shares a few similar, non-problematic side effects.

I do not wish to bring up any big debate on this, just speculation. For sake of this lets just assume that reactions do occur, weather we have seen them or not.

Basically to make it clear, is it possible that an enzyme not designed to be venom, could have similar side-effects that exposure to venom would produce? This doesn't even have to be in terms of hognose snakes, that's just where the debate is at is all.

Thoughts on this?

I am not sure the "debate" is about hognose snakes. It seems to be more about the words used. Like venom, toxic, etc.

All salvia has an effect and a purpose. Saliva can and does have deleterious effects on people, whether its from a cat, hognose, gophersnake, even humans can have a very serious bite.

venom must have a serious effect to be consider venom. The word venom is associated with BAD.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki. Venom is the general term referring to any variety of toxins[1] used by certain types of animals that inject it into their victims by the means of a bite, sting or other sharp body feature.[2] Unlike poison, which is ingested or inhaled, venom.

Most of the debate was trying to separate venom and toxin. But the above Wikipedia definition, ties them together.

The old books state, rear fanged and mildly venomous or toxic. Which normally does not require medical attention.

All colubrid bites result in excess bleeding due to containing such materials as Croto toxin, which is what rattlesnakes have a lot of. Colubrids normally do not have enough to cause harm, other then excess bleeding, as mentioned.

The point is, some take the definition a bit different then others. Also some think a little swelling is serious, while others do not.

Personally I do not understand how experienced keepers cannot escape a hognose bite. Its very easy to avoid being repeadedly worked by those rear teeth. Simply put, grab the handle(rostral) pull up, while twisting the finger down.

Why some keepers want a snake to work them is beyond me. If it makes them happy, then good on them.

All in all, compared to all other reptiles, Hognose are harmless. So what the exact words are, is only for debate. As it has no importance in the real world. I would avoid a bite from a huge hognose as I would any large snake. cheers

So from that I get out that is that it is an enzyme in the saliva that causes this mild reaction to some, not all, hognose bites? Also I believe that wiki sources will relate venom and toxin because of terms such as hemotoxin and neurotoxin. While these are merely components of the venom and not the actual venom, many people and knowledge bases like to classify instead of saying "a mixture of many different components," in this case being proteins.

Also as for the bites, as I said I "forced" the bite by rubbing their food on my hands to see if I got a reaction from their bites or not. I don't even think a novice could be worked on for enough time, they would either not know better and treat it like it's about to bite, or pull their hand back before the bite. Not to mention if one were deliberately coaxed to bite by scent of food on one's hand, similar to a coral snake, the rear fangs could get one easier if they hit a piece of skin, such as between fingers.

Also curious about this stuff because, currently I am in 2nd year of college and would like to do more studies and work in my future relating to venom, what defines venom, separates it from poison and toxin, making anti-venom etc.

The bite itself
http://www.herpzilla.com/fun/hognosebitingfingercropped.jpg

This is right after
http://www.herpzilla.com/fun/hognosesnakebitecropped.jpg

this one was after a day or so.
http://www.herpzilla.com/fun/hognosebitingfingerlater2.jpg

NOT a wise thing to get bit by anything. But since she got me fair and square I had to get a pic.

Since Toxin and Venom do not have lock type scientific definitions, the debate will go on for ever. To me toxins are ingested. So I consider the hogs venomous. Just like helodemus.
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Thanks for reading.
Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
John Holister & Bob Applegate's Herp Chat now easy thru mibbet

Its taught that venom is injected, poison is ingested, and toxin is a substance that is harmful, Toxic. Which includes both of them. Google it up.

The actual point is, this is a casual forum and all of us are correct on our level. And that is the point most lost on these debates. Cheers

Wonderful, I think and its only my opinion, toxin is a material that's deleterious, Venom is that toxin injected with deleterious effects superior to it just touching the surface. Again its just words.

The world of venom and venom research, has had a new door opened. It was opened by GBF. He found toxins in harmless snakes and those without a delivery system, that was consistent with venomous snakes, but in lower and less toxic levels.

I think whats missing in this conversation is, evolution. The evolution of venomous snakes is suppose to be from harmless to venomous. But it does not matter, the development was taught to me as a specialization of saliva glands. That is, the modification to encompass new tasks. So there has to be a place to start and venom started as saliva and contains the same base properties. But has evolved to a point of specific use. You said, proteins, common proteins are important to understanding the reaction to harmless snake bites.

Proteins have different and real reactions to different people.

It seems to me, there are far more people with severe allergies. This may eventually pose a problem with keeping harmless snakes.

Again, I would in the field yesterday and was lucky enough to locate a number of LARGE females, some males and neonates. Not a single one bit me. I did take a bite from a coachwhip. hahahahahahahahahaha They bite! Thanks for the conversation

With the number of cb western hogs I have in my collection, I can safely tell you THEY DON'T BITE defensively. Never. All the ones I have anyway. That goes for adults, juvies and babies. This shouldn't even be a debate like it was in a previous thread. Now if they think you are food, watch out. Mike

Well I had to reply to this. Not on venom or toxic, the bites.

I just had a baby catch me on the inside of the finger this summer. I was reaching to one in the bad of their tub and instead of the classic nose bump she got me. I thought cool let me get soe pictures. In that short time, she got enough in me to make it sore for a few days, NOT a big deal. I have had worse bee stings from the wasps around here. The odd/cool thing is the chronic back pain I have subsided A LOT. As soon as my finger stopped stinging in a few days, my back started to flare up to its crappy norm.
I told my one spinal doc and I could not believe the level of interest. She is going to do some research to see what snake venom is being used in chronic pains.

Yes its pretty easy to avoid a bite in these guys. This is one of the do as I say not as I do situations. You never know how you will react to it. Remember some people can die from bee stings.
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Thanks for reading.
Tom

www.HerpZillA.com
John Holister & Bob Applegate's Herp Chat now easy thru mibbet

Contact, Venomdoc( Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry), he would be interested in your report about the backpain. Google up either name, he has a forum.

The actual point is, most bites do not result in symptoms as extreme as yours. And from a neonate.

No offense, but my hands are too hard, Too much snake hunting. I was bitten by a 14 inch male from a feeding response the other night and nothing, the teeth broke off. hahahahahahahaha Humor sort of.

I simply do not understand why anyone would let one chew on you. I have to wonder, how would Gophersnake or kingsnake saliva react in a penetrating wound?????? We do have totally different reactions to even common bacteria from deeper wounds. And those little suckers have big back teeth. oh I try to avoid treeboa bites too. Big front teeth. Same same.