Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everybody!

It was suggested to me to come to the Rainbow Boas forum here on Kingsnake with my question. This is my first post here, and I hope I'm able to figure out how to post, etc.

I'm looking to get the thoughts of those with more experience / knowledge than myself for the subspecies / locale of one of the Rainbow Boas I have. I acquired him a little over 2 years ago. He was listed as an "Argentine Rainbow", but that was something I honestly questioned from the start. I got him anyway because I liked him for what he is.

I have a few pictures from when I first got him, as well as a number of current ones - including lots of views that may help to identify him. It looks like I can only include 3 here. I do have them all in my gallery though, and hopefully I got it set so those can be viewable to anybody that would like to see more views. (The ones in the Gingko tree and in the yard are from right after he arrived.)

I have an idea, and I previously got the opinion of one Rainbow Boa person that narrowed it down to a couple - and one of those matched my thoughts. But, I'd prefer to not put any particular thought in anybody's mind here and let people come to their own determination.

I look forward to and will appreciate everyone's thoughts.
Thank you!
Sonja

>>Hi everybody!
>>

Hi Sonja!

Nice to see you on this forum, although it's really slow these days. I'm no expert, but your snake looks like what many call a E. crassus (or E. c. crassus.) It looks nothing like my Argentinian Rainbow boa (C. alvarezi) or any Argentinian I've seen pictures of. I don't get too hung up on taxonomy, though, since these mainland Epicrates have such a wide range and there is a lot of variation, and Paraguay and Argentina are next to each other. And the taxonomists keep changing the classifications. But again, your snake doesn't look like an Argentinian, so I would agree with you. It's a really gorgeous rainbow boa, whatever it is!!

How are your Bahama boas doing? Post some pictures if you get a chance!

Thanks,
Ed

Thanks, Ed!

The Bahamians are doing well! My male has gotten to be such a wonderful, light silver! I need to get updated pics of him! The little female I recently picked up took her first unscented pinky last weekend which made me very happy! At first I got her to take live tree frogs, then she took some F/T anoles I had. Then I got her to take quail scented pinks, and after a month of those, it was unscented. That jump to unscented always excites me. Both have great temperaments, too. They are very enjoyable keeps!

>>
>>I have a few pictures from when I first got him, as well as a number of current ones - including lots of views that may help to identify him. It looks like I can only include 3 here. I do have them all in my gallery though, and hopefully I got it set so those can be viewable to anybody that would like to see more views. (The ones in the Gingko tree and in the yard are from right after he arrived.)

Interesting looking animal and, as you said, doesn't look like alvarezi. Can you post a link to the other photos you reference above including full body shots? I haven't been able to find/access them and they should help identification. It's hard to tell from these three photos alone.
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At least all I could find/guess at from her pic naming convention....

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>At least all I could find/guess at from her pic naming convention....

Thanks Dave.

From these photos, I'm going to go with E. crassus as well.
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>>From these photos, I'm going to go with E. crassus as well.

Sorry to respond to my own post but let me also say that In reviewing the keys and photos in Bellosa and Bisplinghof (2012) it looks to me MOST like crassus but it also appears to have some characteristics of subspecies of maurus. I'm also not ruling out the possibility that it is a hybrid.
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Thanks for posting the pics for me Dave! I was out of town and away from the internet.

This past Friday, I received my copy of the book mentioned above in the mail. I was looking through it over the weekend and noted that the various scale counts seem to be significantly less for crassus than other subspecies. Perhaps that could be the key to identifying? Is it the norm to use a shed from the animal to get counts?

By far the easiest way is with a shed. It does not move on you!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Hee Hee Obvious I've not counted scales before, huh?!

He actually shed while I was gone, but it was dried and wrapped around some greenery, and torn. I might be able to get a count of the subcaudals this round, though.

Clearly!!

Scale count typically refers to number of rows mid body. All you need is a section where you can count them. just go diagonally starting with the first row next to the subcaudals. Reversing direction is fine (to get around a damaged area). Keep going until you get to the other side.

To state it another way, scale next to subcaudal is "1", then go up one row to get to "2" except since the scales are staggered you have to go either a half scale forward or backward. You can always go the same direction or you can reverse direction to zig-zag up and over. Another trick is to cut the shed down the subcaudal so you can flatten it out for easier counting. Can even use a sharpie to mark individual scales .
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Just to add on to Dave's suggestion, I would definitely use a marker to help... it's pretty easy to lose track sometimes since you are going diagonal - my eyes start to blur from it.

I would also suggest counting several mid-body rows to get a more accurate average count.
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Chris Carille
Marist College and Mount Saint Mary College, NY
Department of Biology
Chris Carille Photography - carillephoto.com
Garden of Eden Exotics - edenexotics.weebly.com
http://nyexotics.blogspot.com/

>>>>From these photos, I'm going to go with E. crassus as well.
>>
>>Sorry to respond to my own post but let me also say that In reviewing the keys and photos in Bellosa and Bisplinghof (2012) it looks to me MOST like crassus but it also appears to have some characteristics of subspecies of maurus. I'm also not ruling out the possibility that it is a hybrid.
>>-----
>>

Per (what I think is) the latest re-classification, there is no subspecies of maurus anymore. However, to your point, the new species designation E. maurus, according to the authors, is closely related to the new E. crassus species! Anyway, if anyone want's a link to the paper, let me know. I'd post it here, but the post, if not the entire thread, would probably get deleted.

We've already established that I'm a newbie when it comes to counting scales so be nice. but I was able to get what I think is a decent picture of the dorsals scales from his shed.

I am getting an average count of ~30. Am I doing it correctly??

And if so, does that indicate that it's a crassus?

Well, I agree with your count of ~30. Don't know what that means for species though.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>I am getting an average count of ~30. Am I doing it correctly??
>>And if so, does that indicate that it's a crassus?

~30 is about right.

That count is most consistent with it being a crassus which are said to have fewer than 47 dorsals. But that said, 30 is actually quite low even for a crassus which tend to range from 40-46. But all the other species tend to have in the 45 range, so unless you feel like naming it Epicrates koolmo , I'd say what you have is a crassus (though I'm still unwilling to rule out a crassus/maurus hybrid). Was it an import or USCB?
Ophidiophile Farms

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I'm attempting to see if I can get any background info. I'll post if I do.

Come the next shed I will definitely be looking forward to counting the ventrals - frustrating for me that this go around the shed was too torn up.

>all the other species tend to have in the 45 range, so unless you

That should read '45 plus' range.
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