Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Do you use the same husbandry techniques for your other lizards such as bearded dragons, tegus, iguanas, leopard geckos? I was observing some of the cages that these species are kept in and I don't think a monitor would live to their second birthday if they were kept the same way. I was looking, for example, at a tegu forum and not one keeper that I observed used cattle troughs for a bottom. I don't know if they have a high failure rate or not they don't seem too. Keeping monitors forces you to put a whole new spin on reptiles. At least it does me.

The method of choices used with monitors, works AMAZINGLY well, on other reptiles(that's where I came up with it) Recipe keeping used on other reptiles, fails miserably with varanids.

Tegus normally(the commonly kept species) nest on the surface by stacking plant matter and making a shallow depression underneath. So its not a Giant requirement having deep substrate. But deep substrate helps with many other issues. Humidity and temp base.

Its sad the lack of respect folks have for many reptiles. They keep so many minimally because the animals does not die. Which is not a great reason do doing so. I wish folks would think in an average way, not even maximum, just average.

I spend lots of time in the field with wild reptiles and seeing folks think there is no otherway then to keep them in a shoebox, well makes me throw up.

They can keep them anyway they want, but at least they should understand their are many ways and many of those ways benefit the reptile. Cheers

Did you use a similar cage system for colubrids as you did monitors just on a smaller scale?

It actually started by testing temps. I made a stack for hatchling pyros, and they without question taught me.

I always attempted to offer choices, based on my age. When I was a kid, they kept snakes at 72F and that was it. Most died, or feed a few times in the summer, but never did much.

Then one of my first jobs was at a pet shop. I sold a lady a baby cal king(in 1965) She asked how should she keep it, I said, keep in warm and feed it.

8 months later(or so) she came back in the shop and I asked, hows that king. She said fine, she said, its three foot long now. I said, WTF and more, I asked what did you do, she said, I did what you said, I kept it warm and fed it everyday.

So I set out to redo what she did. It took years, but by the early 70's, I was doing that and breeding kings at 18 months or less. Then Had one breed at 9 months of age.

Then I set out to accomplish that with other species of colubrids, boas, pythons, lizards, torts, turtles, and lastly varanids. Of course, varanids responded the best to choices.

The actual point is, nature DOES NOT OFFER one small set of temps. IN ALL CASES, it supports the populations of reptiles with much higher temps and much lower temps and the species use their adaptions to SEEK WHAT THEY REQUIRE.

So my task became, how can I support any species maximum range of temp or conditional choices, not the minimum.

Along the way I have set all manner of growth and reproductive records and longevity as well.

At this time, I have a 36 inch thayeri that's 10 months old. hmmmm cheers

Amazing Frank! You "made up" what was already published years before...wow impressive.
Look, it's great that you applied the knowledge and certainly not EVERYBODY was using progressive husbandry, but to say you came up with these ideas when they were published and discussed long before 1965, is foolish to the extreme.
I double dog dare anyone who questions this to read Hedigers groundbreaking work: An outline of the psychology of animals in captivity, written in 1950 published first in German in the early '50's English in 1962.
Look into what Hediger suggested to Ditmars when he saw that famous pic of Ditmars force feeding a retic.....anyone ...anyone?

Sir your problem is not understanding the difference between academics(thought and theory) and the actual application of thought a theory, or, to TEST that theory. The truth is, anybody can think of anything.

While all manner of talk was around, the actual producing of generations of reptiles was not. The producing of every female was not. Just one here and there.

And while that information may have been written, it was not understood by the "people" keeping snakes, us.

Also, I lay no claim to anything. That seems to be a real worry of yours. I did what I did and history will do with it what it wants.

The key to my little story is the lady with the cal king, she did it first. She caused me to rethink keeping, and then I did the revolutionary thing. I got rid of all my snakes and specialized in cal kings. Then another species and another species.

You see($%%^^%) at the time, everyone has postage stamp collections. one or two of this or that and had many many species, but not good with anyone of them. How can you actually learn from one of these and two of those? That's what I changed.

Me moving to specialization, was what allowed for better husbandry.

Now if only you would say, what I said is not true. Then you and I will have a "real" problem. As of know, your just some whining kid. That just has to interrupt because he missed the boat. Or that's the way you appear from here. Again, anyone can whine, get off your arse and do something. Oh, its already done. hmmmmmmm

How about posting some of what you say???????? You know, that 1965 stuff??? I captive produced my first snakes, thams and ribbons, in 58. I did this with real help from a neighbor, he build me large galvanized tanks, my first kings in 64. First lizards, alligator lizards, in 62. Where were you? and how old were your parents at that time?????? Now tell me what you know about that time?????

My point and the reason I call you on the B.S is that it is a horse of a different color to say one person came up with what is now considered modern husbandry technique vs. years of hard arsed work done by many, many people leading to the conclusions that you promote.
What we need is an army of people who understand modern husbandry application that can help spread good info and dispel bad info.I think we need to show that these ideas are a progression of thinking throughout the history of animal keeping, a culmination of hundreds of workers lifetime output(both failure and success), not just one guy who thinks he invented dirt. By showing how keepers now can help be a part of the progression instead of sycophantic sheep, that they can add to the history as well as learn from it would in my opinion lead to greater progress and better treatment of these animals.

Your personal attacks on me do not interest me in the least, could you try and make them funnier though?
As far as me missing the boat, I don't get your line of thinking here? There is so much misinformation out there, so many crappy exhibits world wide, so many crappy keepers, so many dead and dying animals, from where I sit there is a LOT of work to be done and spreading lies and misinformation is not helpful.
You think everything has been done? you must not get out much!

O.k the 1965 stuff:
When Hediger saw the pic of the force feeding of the retic he lamented that the zoo did not understand the animal, he stated that the retic does not need to be force fed in the wild and that the conditions in the zoo were inadequate. Hediger remarked that although the snake was kept in a green house with a radiator the animal was forced to sit on cold concrete, sucking the heat from the animal. He remarked about the high heat and humidity where these animals occur in nature and suggested replicating it instead of force feeding.
So here was a guy who understood surface temps before temp guns!
Getting cut off here

Here is the pic.
Just to answer your questions, because I am polite.
My father was in his thirties in 1962 (fought in Korea)Mom in her 20's, next time I'll find a pic for you.
I was born in 1974 and NO I do not wish I was older or came before or any such nonsense. I'm happy to have come along when I did, got to see some really cool stuff, and there is still so much work to be done. I started keeping reps when I was 8, alligator lizards and rosy boas, have now bred both live bearing and egg laying reps of many species and have varanid eggs in the incubator now, gravid females and copulating lizards today.
I know about the history of this hobby because I have studied it and met with many herpers, zoologists, biologists, historians and people with hands on experience. I am interested in the history and the people involved over the years, I bother to read their work, their biography's and then follow up. You got a problem with that? I'm all about APPLYING the info, not just having it and my work speaks for itself.

I'm going to get up in your grill every time I see you take credit for others work Frank, might as well get used to it.
Good day.

That is not make a single point. Of course times were rough back them. And because someone lamented on those conditions, does not bring about change.

What I did do was change the landscape in certain areas. Specializing and refining husbandry that worked for many keepers and many species.

I was anywhere near the first to produce monitors, but that same approach also changed the landscape of keeping monitors in captivity. Now temps of 150F are common place and normal. Real security is now normal for monitors. Living in groups and being social is now normal.

Where you fall on your head is, who said, I am not a product of all before me and with me. I learned from animals, as my guide and keepers where applicable.

That you try to make it ONE person, is silly, stupid and something that bounces around in your head.

And every time you do this, you help others understand how odd you are.

I simply do, and keep doing. Which is what I am going to do. And your no part of it. But many others are. Thanks

"of course times were rough back then"
Frank,you cannot digest info at all can you?
Hediger laid out in no uncertain terms what the parameters of modern husbandry were, repeatedly in publication after publication.
You want to make it about one person,that's why I object to you.
My point is the exact opposite of what you deduced.
You changed the landscape! nice, very impressive, but it's not about you right? Does contradicting yourself in the same post bother you at all?
Real security, social, high temps, all suggested by Hediger and many others well before you, AND applied by others with great success.
Again, don't you see how your line of thinking doesn't add up?
How could all of these previous workers (many ignored, I'll give you that) contribute all of this knowledge and apply it,publish it and yell it from mountain high to anyone who would listen... but you changed the landscape?
I agree that I am not a part of anything you are doing and do not want to be associated with you in any way.
I'm simply calling B.S where I see it.

You are so missing the boat. Do you remember the sixties, I think not, do you know how information was dispersed, again, I think not.

None of that so called information, HIT THE STREETS and was not used. I worked in zoos and pet shops, and it was not commonly understood or understood at all. how about checking breeding records before the sixties and after the seventies.

It doesn't matter what was written, It wasn't until there was an established value that it was applied. But you know nothing about that.

ALso and more importantly, this is NOT a scientific journal, or museum publication. A person asked a question and I answered it. I answered it truthfully and honestly.

If you have anybody that will come here and dispute what I said, have them do it. You know, folks with knowledge and experience of the times.

Why I criticize academics at times, is because folks like you. You have no concept or idea of what went on. You read something and judge it without experience or knowledge. you just babble. Well sir, its you that is full of BS and covets and is jealous.

You do make me feel important, as I would never take the time to even think about you and research anything pertaining to you.

If you brought in Ernie Wagner, so some other curator/true keeper of the time and dispute what I said, I will glady have a nice conversation with them. Ernie was a true husbandry genius. Someone I would gladly call a peer. You sir, act the fool. Cheers

How about adding to the conversation, not subtracting. Oh I know, that's all you know how to do.

Please try to contribute. You see, no one actually cares about first or second or whatever, they care about something that will help their animals. And that is what I care about. Thank you

"Now temps of 150F are common place and normal. Real security is now normal for monitors. Living in groups and being social is now normal."-FR
I would like to reply directly to this statement.
This type of husbandry is UNFORTUNATELY not normal.
For the record so we don't get off track, I use and support this type of husbandry, have had great success with it and do all I can to promote it.
Modern husbandry technique is still seen by most in both the zoological and private sectors as overboard, unnecessary, lavish and even stupid. I'm an AZA commercial member and am in a different zoo just about every month and can tell you that this type of husbandry is not the norm in zoos. There are notable exceptions, but by and large modern husbandry technique is not applied to varanids in zoos. I work very hard to bring this type of husbandry to exhibits and it is a serious uphill climb to even get zoos thinking about keeping monitors in this fashion.
Go on any hobby site or you tube and check out the conversation about husbandry, then tell me this type of keeping is normal. It is outright rejected by most in the reptile community. Most keepers still use screen topped fish tanks with big lights and UTH or racks/tubs that do not allow behavior or observation.There are maybe 60,maybe 100...maybe people worldwide applying modern husbandry technique to varanids, thousands who don't.Far from normal.
Pick any commonly kept animal, offer it this type of husbandry, go on the forums and show a pic or talk about it and watch the frowns roll in. Normal...sadly no, should it be...hell yes.
B

Now Ben, it seems you just like to twist and turn things. First you say, the zoo world was wise to the techniques I developed(applied) back in 1965, and now you say they are not and do not understand methods I developed and I did develop them, in spite of the resistance.

Context is important, and that is where you are lost. Academics often times loses context.

While you are right, zoos often CHOOSE to have blind eye to successful husbandry techniques, its by choice, they simply do not want to WORK. and monitors successfully kept, are work.

Beginers(petshop husbandry, recipe husbandry) also turn a blind eye, but they are educated by commercial products. And a plan to keep buying probuct. As you should know, petshop animals, are only for sale to support the hard goods sales.

The beginers are naïve, the zoos are ignorant, the commercial product producers are greedy.

Where your missing "this" boat is, the information to successfully keep and breed monitors, is out there, its easily obtained. But it is work to apply and humans, well they can be lazy, if theres an easy way, they will take it. Bigger cages, deep substrate, more heat(electric costs) etc, are too much to bare for the beginner, particularly when theirs a petshop sales person with a beginers monitor KIT, for $59.95. A glass tank, screen top, half a log "hide".

This must be mentioned, there are excellent, intelligent reptile keepers in zoos, but the longer they stay, the less they do. Its the nature of that beast. They do not get paid more(raises) by how well the animals achieve life events. They get raises from cleaning glass, and mopping floors.(maintenance)End part 1

You and I are doing the same thing, only I came before you. So you want to fight me. You really need to think about that. Sir, that's an ego problem on your side.

About being the first or whatever, I never call myself the best, I do report results. I did what I did. You think your generations of dums is important, and it is, yet go stupid about my 6 generations or more, of 18 species. Which to you means nothing? We are equals because you did one species to generations???(I hope more by now)

Now for the important life lesson, you can never be equal to someone doing the same things you are, when they are older and been doing it for longer. Not until you outlive them.

If you want to be "important" in any field, you must be willing to change the game. Heres the funny part, with your experience in husbandry and exhibits, you have the ability to "CHANGE the GAME". So do it.

Lastly, context, husbandry is NOT AN INVENTION, its something that's perfected and applied.

Truthfully, all I did was support snakes(and other reptiles) ability to reach the upper levels of growth and reproduction, related to their genetic potential. Of interest to the field herper, its the individuals that reach their genetic potential that support populations. The average reptile is culled out. We know that, but do not apply that. So Science loves to quantify, which is absolutely useless when attempting to learn how natural animals exist. Its possible you fail to understand what I did, which is why your so confused.

Concepts are indeed commonplace and any dipshat can come up with them. Sorry no offense, but its true. Simply put, it takes work and guts to apply something different. I developed a different approach and it worked. end part 2

my results with snakes, surpassed all those before me, like they were standing still on the freeway. The same with varanids, My results surpassed all before me, and quickly. Which means, its about method and approach and not about me.

THE PUNCHLINE, you sir, want to make it about me, I think this and I think that. How stupid, if I can be Frank. Its about results and it always has been. I stand by my results. Compared to results, talk is silly. Everybody talks, but few have results.

That you want to make it about people, egos or whatever, sir, good luck with that. Its holding you back.

I have learned to not let "others" hinder me, The reason is, that's what others do. Another life lesson.

So instead of your mission against my perceived BS(how about my results?), how about adding to help those new keepers, How are you effecting the zoos you work with????? Those are questions I ask of you.

How about offering some of your experiences based on your successes. Here on this forum. I am sure what you did is not confined to Dums and dums only. Best wishes.

ABout academics, I love academics, what is troublesome is folks that do not understand what that is. for your reading pleasure, academics and theory, are unproven. When they are "proven" they are no longer academic or theory. It does bother me when folks think academics is fact and proven.

ABout the methods I applied, I never said, others did not think about them. I simply was the first to apply them(successfully) We could talk about some of the absolute failures that occurred along the way, you know, back in the sixties. Cheers

You and I are not doing the same thing.
What you really need to ask yourself here Frank is why I would be so stoked on all of these other guys who came before, but bummed on YOU for coming before me? I'm not interested in you. I study the history because it intrigues me. I like reading about the Gogga's, the Hagenbecks,the Hedigers, the Mintons, the Conants, etc. In doing so and in doing the work, meeting people all over the world you start to see some truths, some patterns,some realities.
I'm not fighting you. I'm calling B.S
If anything I'm disappointed that you weren't better able to pave the way for modern husbandry in zoo exhibits. Why you think I'm hung up on someone who failed at what I'm trying to achieve is beyond me.
I don't recall asking for any life lessons or advice from you, ever. I'll offer up a "life lesson" for you at the end and see how you like it...fair enough?
It is not for me to want to be "important" in my field it is for me to DO THE WORK.
I agree that I have the right background to make changes and am doing so. I will not discuss the specifics of my business here as it is against the TOS.
End of part one of response to part two

Heres the point, you don't like me, good on you. I think nothing of you, other then just another person trying to do something by taking down someone else.

All in all, what I have done with herps is no big thing. I take far more pride in many other walks of like. Like anything I see in the field, which is where my husbandry came from.

You can say BS all you want in your silly game but you have done nothing to show anyone else with the results I have experienced. At the time I experienced them. Please do that. And please tell everyone reading this why you don't offer a 90F hot spot for your monitors. Or multicutching in kingssnakes and varanids. Best wishes, and just saying bullshat is weak and silly.

Anything I did or any results I received takes nothing away from your heros. But your too dumb to see that. All in all, I was lucky, I was botn at the right time for this. But not at the right time for doing what I really love, field work. It would have been great to be around when the vast majority of species were new.

Well, that's a long response, thanks for taking the time, I'll try and address your points one part at a time.

I did not say the zoo world was wise at any time, what I said was that there have been many pioneers in animal behavior and husbandry that have not only laid a foundation for modern husbandry technique but put it into practice. What has happened time and time again is that these people are seen as "radical outsiders" by the establishment and their ideas and work are either suppressed OR if the success is recognized, the establishment then copies it... poorly (copy of a copy). Leaving us with this rich history of real movers and shakers in the husbandry and behavior realm who not only wrote about their discoveries and techniques but in some cases put them to work with amazing results.

Context is important, for you as well.

I am not an Academic, I am a high school dropout who works with his hands.

You are stating the obvious with your husbandry/pet/Zoo rave out here, I agree.
End response part one.

Stop all your BS, If you think I am wrong, Prove it. Because all your doing is calling names like a child.

Again, maybe you should go back to school. Because in school you learn from those before you. Yet in everyday life, you don't cite your kindergarden teacher for teaching you.

There were two key learning lessons in my life, both came from school, one was in high school. A group of biology teachers and a college mill and cabinet teacher in school. The rest was great, but those were two areas that formed me and my thinking.

The teachers at the time were not controlled and restricted, as they are now. The bio teachers, taught me facts and how to dream, to dream about what could be. The mill and cabinet teacher taught me to not be restricted by current tools/life.

He did that by giving us a project, planning, blueprints, etc. Then you turn your project in. Hmmmmmm mine was a full working recurve bow. Then the teacher returned our papers and instructed us to make the tools, to build our projects. Sir, that was the best lesson ever. And that teacher was just a woodshop teacher of no name. He deserves all my credit for being inventive.

The bio teacher would give us a lesson in biology, then turn the lites out and tell us to think and to dream and to wonder. I guess in a sense, I was hypnotized, to be like I am. As I would dream of animals and what they are, what they really are. I learned, the animals are the book. Not any paper book.

So when it comes to captivity, keeping and breeding was never an accomplishment to me. IT was a relief. As these animals have been doing what those things for thousands of years, without me, or you, or any of us. In a sense, WE STOP THEM. All I ever tried to do was, NOT STOP THEM. Then to promote their abilities. end part 1

I am sure others thought of it, or did it, but like with anything else, my timing was right and I did it in a big way. If I copied anyone, it was the monkey ladies, Fossey and Goodall. They taught me to let animals accept me. And not push me on them. This includes husbandry.

Take varanids, I did that in a big way, and that's what angers varaphiles, as I am not a varaphile. I am a field herper. Who loves animals. I use and used captivity to test what I see in nature. WHAT I SEE. that is important.

When asked where I came up with something, I report where I came up with it, if possible, the moment the epiphany hit me. I am sorry.

That you want me to say something else is really weird and childish of you. That I did not read what your reading, is good, as it did not confine me. If you know my history. I purposely try to not be guided by people, right wrong or indifferent. I am guided by the animals, right wrong or indifferent.

What I did, was so very simplistic and based on the animals, take retes boards(I did not name them) I took that from snakes using AC in nature, simple as it is, worked there, should work here. Didn't take it from your mentors.

Temps, that's easy, from nature. No reptile lives in a place of optimum temps, they all come from areas, hotter and cooler, and work their needs from that. How they work out their needs defines them.(not me)

Deep substrate, hmmmmmmm came for years of digging up reptiles. How friggin simple is that. Not sure I needed all your mentors help with those. But if they thought of it. Great, I did meet and have many conversations with Roger Conant. In fact, he taught me a lesson, he taught me to not report undiscribed species. As all that will come from that is harm to the animals. Those are his words.

Your like me, only you do not have faith in yourself, go do something Ben, something all your own. If you do, you will not even think of me. Cheers

Man, what a bummer,my whole last reply didn't post last night,aargh!
I don't have time to combat all the lies in your post Frank, funny you mentioned Fossey and Goodall....hmmmm who had the same ideas as them in 1890?? where did they get the start of their ideas? HMMMMMMMMM.......???? Who came before them and laid the groundwork?? curious eh?
It is a pointless undertaking to meet your lies with reality Frank.
We live in an age of information, I'll just hope that some people take the time to figure it out, I don't have time for this now.

I will say Frank I wish you all the best, happiness, health and reproductive success for you and yours, I just hope I can make this clear, I aint buying what your selling, and want no part of anything you do or claim to have done.
Just stay arms length from me at all times and we'll be fine.

Oh, and her's your life lesson:
You can't demand respect......
You have to earn it.

Ben

Simply put, I do not care what you buy and what you don't.

IF you would only offer something that helps keepers, I would be behind you. But your not capable of that. For that, I am sorry for you.

Also, on these forums, others do not care who came up with what particularly when it was before they were born. They do care about something that helps their animals.

Those zoos that do not care about their animals, so what, those newbie keepers that get brainwashed by petshop commercial products, YOU CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

So again I say, put up or shut up.

I understand where your so off base. For some silly reason, you trying to place me/stuff, in areas you flat do not understand.
In context, I and some of my peers are indeed the fathers and grandfathers of this, the modern hobby of keeping. You know, shows, meetings, products etc. Modern keeping, the pet trade.
When those folks were in their prime, they did not have any of this. We did, my peers and I, started this mess.
When I talk here on this forum, I am talking about applying those techniques and ideas, in this area.
I will take credit for being a part of this area of herps and husbandry. In those old days, just producing one offspring gained you awards. But that type of information would never support this industry. Those folks you mention were not part of this area. Its this area that makes folks aware of snakes/reptiles. In the day of those people, nobody kept them, and snakes/reptiles were to be hated.
I did read those old books, over and over, and I am sure they are part of me. But again, we are alike, I did not worry about what they did right, I spend more time fixing what they did wrong. And I am sure they would congratulate me for that.
The problem is, your trying to be somewhat of an historian, only you have not picked up or the different eras of keeping. All my work was for this era of keeping.
May I warn you, If you do not do something, all you will have in the future is, recipe/shoebox husbandry. And monitors will be gone, as they don't play that game.
All in all, you are also a history drop out. As you know nothing of the time, as I mentioned earlier(your academic). As for me, such folks as Jim Murphy, Wes Dickenson, and the Joesph Lazlos taugh me valuable lessons. I did not argue with them, even when I disagreed and man I did. Only years later, what they said, came to play. I thank them. Whats important was, I was playing the game and kept on playing. All you do is whine. and like all whiners, are of no importance.

Can someone post a picture or a link to a picture on what a good snake cage should look like. We already know what a good monitor cage should look like. I can't ask on the snake forums because they don't know either.

This is one of my enclosure builds.

-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

Nice cage...I see you build them out of wood all the way to the bottom. Nothing heavy duty at the bottom to hold the dirt.

I'm thinking of building one with wood stacks going up to the light. I'm just curious to see if they use it. My boas and ball pythons don't. They typically stay at the bottom range.

You asked a good cage, ITs one that offers something for the snake. At least crawl a little bit, a way to make temp and humidity choices.

I only have a few snakes at this time. And I have been testing soils in those cages. That is, putting in a box of soil and the rest of the cage having aspen or pine shavings. So far in all cages, the snakes use the soil all the time.

I have a cage, normal stinking cage, with a trio of rosy boas. In this cage I am testing retes stacks. And so far, use them perfectly. From coiling under the cool side board, to on top the stack, to using different layers.

I will post some pics soon. These cages are what I would consider basic. Its two foot snakes, in a four foot cage.

This fall and winter I am going to be building some nice cages for my snakes. Good question, and best wishes

I'm thinking of getting some baby brooks snakes and trying that out. I thought you have tested the different types of substrates by now since you have had snakes all your life pretty much.

I see some people recommend those plastic tubs. They raise thousands of snakes like that. It's just not my style, it's impossible to watch and observe them if you can't even see them. For people that are making a living at it I guess they have to do what is practical but thankfully I don't have to.

I think that is THE most important part of successful reptile keeping. Knowing all the scientific names and where each population is from is good but when it comes to actually keeping them captivity it is better to focus on the husbandry.

No denying that varanid husbandry works amazingly well with almost any reptile.

Geckos become REAL LIZARDS when given a big hot cage with choices. "Docile" snakes start behaving like snakes should and biting the keepers hands.

It works!!
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
Thamnophis US
Savannah Monitors
Snakes and Lizards, It don't get any better....

What cage system did you use for snakes other lizards dekay just wondering.

I think the key is, do not think in the restrictive mode of cage systems. They are all build for the average non thinking human. I do not know of any that WORK for the animal.

Whats important to understand, there were no cages other then glass fish tanks, when I was young. All good snake keepers made their own cages.

In fact, the best most successful early keepers, had building skills. We build what was needed, or precieved to be needed.

We did not try to make any reptile fit into something already restrictive.

Most commercial cages do two things, they address convenience or looks, but do not put together those plus the needs of the animal. Best wishes

I remember keeping a mexican black kingsnake in a escape proof cage. He broke out by pushing the glass off the track. I had a brooks king push the top off a empty aquarium that was clamped down. This is going back almost 20 years ago. I thought I was using the latest and greatest husbandry methods LOL.

Sorry to say, I had many of those failures. A good one was way back, 1962-3 I believe. I lived in SoCal, and kept and bred snakes in a carport. Parents you know. Well I made this wooden cage, and put a lite in it. I have a Mexican boa in there.

Well the dang lite burned a hole in the top of the cage and the snake got away. One of my neighbors spotted a big brown snake in a tree, a few houses down. A few days later, I found the boa coiled on top the cage. Hmmmmmmmmmm a beginers lesson. Cheers