Reptile & Amphibian Forums

???didn't hear about this until today. The last Hamburg show had a bust ? Seems the Pa fish comm. busted all people with ""Native"" reptiles.....native as in any species or sub-species of copperhead...even broad banded (southern ,Trans-Pecos too) ..saying copperhead is native and illegal...Heard the same with any painted turtle . Heard they are going to go for ANY "milksnake" next...any...as in any of the 26 ssp...saying milks are milks?...

YET the amel black rats are legal...even though they are exactly black ratsnakes / Allegheny ratsnakes, yet a "morph"

....heard they didn't check any lisences or permits for anything just went after the copperheads.

next thing you know it will be legal to ship retics and not Burmese.....cough....

Government.....(look under retarded in the dictionary)
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........JY

My girlfriend and I were at the August 3rd Hamburg show, and indeed, the Water Conservation Police busted two, maybe three, vendors for having Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix.

The reason is because they did/do not distinguish between subspecies. Simple as that, and quite the bull[bleep]. We were right beside the WCP when addressing Kevin Brown/The Hibernaculum (left side when You walk in). A few tables down, a vendor with exclusively A. c. contortrix--and clearly WC...whether legally caught on the way up (-presumably) or not, that was quite the lack or morals and ethics which infuriated a few of Us--had them ALL taken away, and there was a good half-dozen or so. I believe a third vendor (also on the left side (...), but all the way down on the inner corner) was addressed although I don't recall seeing Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. at his table...?

It would be nice if these "retarded" WCP were actually educated because as We should All know, A. c. contortrix is quite distinguishable from A. c. mokasen, and a good few vendors in (personal) defense of Kevin Brown and the others spoke this among Ourselves (no; I'm not a vendor, but I know one quite well, and We were All talking afterward), and they all attested they have never seen a A. c. mokasen at the Hamburg show in its 23 years.

"Government.....(look under retarded in the dictionary)"

More like bureaucratic, and simply ignorant/naive.
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T.J. Gould

and they all attested they have never seen a A. c. mokasen at the Hamburg show in its 23 years.

A c mokasen...southern?.....I thought I have seen southerns , Trans-Pecos, and Rio Grande's at Hamburg ?...but I am not sure....I vended there for 20 years....I've seen a lot....and yes ,,a lot of stuff that makes us scream why!...(wild stuff raped from the land)..(yes northerns also)..

.....I was not there this year .....
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........JY

A. c. mokasen = Northern Copperhead = illegal up here. A. c. contortrix is the nominate subspecies: the Southern Copperhead which, yes, I am sure plenty have been sold in the 23 years of the Hamburg show...as well as the other three (3) subspecies (five (5) total: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agkistrodon_contortrix#Subspecies), and these four (4) nonnative subspecies should all continue to be legally sold.

Admittedly, this was my first time attending the show, but I knew a lot about it from obsessing wanting to attend it for so many years. Aside from--paraphrased from the previously-mentioned vendor-friend I know well, but also my own belief--WC being one of the drawbacks to the show...well, from standing in line at 08:15 till leaving at 15:00, having made five (5) complete rounds and several revisits, I LOVE this show!!

I wish I could make the the show on the 19th, but again: We're moving down on the 18th and need to settle in, and Johnstown is ~7 hours round-trip from Hamburg...We will have driven ~8 hours the previous day. But We may attend the Pittsburgh show on the 20th (= ~3 hours round-trip), definitely on 11/10, and the Hamburg shows on 12/7 and the 2/22/14 - Denise Readinger says the February show is the big one: shoulder-to-shoulder, great selection, and good sales (-unlike the August 3rd show which I overheard many vendors say they weren't doing good). We're ecstatic!
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T.J. Gould

"I've seen a lot....and yes ,,a lot of stuff that makes us scream why!...(wild stuff raped from the land)..(yes northerns also)."

Does this imply You have seen A. c. mokasen (Northern Copperhead) at Hamburg? Or are You just speaking in general (such as poaching)? Because again: a few vendors/spectators who have also vended/spectated the show just as long as You claim said they've never seen a A. c. mokasen make its way in...? Contradicting sources, that's all, and I like to analyze and figure things out.

Timothy
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T.J. Gould

thought I have.....my memory may be off....?

but yes....I have seen illegally caught- wild -raped stuff at shows....more than one show....sometimes under tables...you don't get offered stuff unless you know people....the legally raped stuff is there also...some like it, some don't....I bought some wild stuff over the years ....some does well, some dies really fast.....

....anyways....I don't like any rules or regs....
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........JY

"but yes....I have seen illegally caught- wild -raped stuff at shows....more than one show....sometimes under tables...you don't get offered stuff unless you know people...."

I'm not surprised. Oh well.

"anyways....I don't like any rules or regs...."

Funny You should say this. Coming from Massachusetts my entire 29.5-year life and originally going to Florida before We re-deciding (-from one year ago) on Pennsylvania two months ago, I thought Florida's permit system was the most reasonable and greatest thing. But early in my 15 hours and 19 minutes of phone calls with a great and well-known Floridian Hot keeper, I came to realize it's major overkill (to paraphrase him), and who the Hel is the government to say what I can and cannot keep?! Only if I am endangering society, I suppose...

And on that note, it really comes down to keeping out of harm's way via responsibility, common sense, proper equipment and plenty of it, and practical caging. B.W. Smith's Venomous Snakes in Captivity is a "bible" indeed, full of common sense which I pride myself in having much of, yet this book made me realize things that would have otherwise come with time and experience in probably 1-3 years. Having safety protocols (including for natural disasters) isn't a bad idea neither, and stocking Your own antivenin for fast-acting venom (exempli gratia, Dendroaspis polylepis) is the best "insurance policy" if You have the money.

All of the pioneering Hot handlers--Bill Haast, need I say more?--were all autodidact, so who is to say a prospective modern keeper with a good head on their shoulders (!!) can't teach themselves?! ...starting with the right species, of course, such as a Sistrurus catenatus tergeminus. Id est, I don't believe in rules and regulations neither; however...
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T.J. Gould

The few bad apples are what make legislature crack down, so dealers/breeders should make a doubly-concerted effort to evaluate one's qualifications. It is a much better alternative to a government(s) creating rules, regulations, and permit/license requirements for the good guys which comprise 90% of Us.

Now, if You meant "don't like rules or regs" as in illegally catching WC, I will have to contest You. I may not be fond of government, but I do believe they are reasonable and accurate in their assessment of a species' predicament, and therefore list them ("Endangered", "Threatened", or "Special Concern" ) for good reason and justification. These protection laws need to be respected! And I will believe You hold such respect, morals and ethics.

If You meant "don't like rules or regs" as in legally raped WC...well obviously, there's nothing to be regulated, and therefore nothing to complain about. But if a species that occurs in, say, PA was caught in a different state, and PA doesn't allow the sale of native species which these specimens constitute as, there's no way for PA to know if they were caught in, say, Virginia or PA. Thus, I support the authorities taking them away.
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T.J. Gould

Where did ALL CBB establishments start from? Wild-caught specimens of course! And there are thousands more species to be established, so until if-and-when some few dedicated inidividuals achieve this, I support WC if legally acquired. Wild-caught shouldn't be the staple of a dealer's supply, but in moderation it is okay. And even after CBB establishments occur, occasional fresh, wild blood fused into bloodlines will help strengthen what will otherwise become weak and degenerate bloodlines...especially when captitalist pigs start "playing God" in producing the next "creation" (id est, man-made morph; via selective-, cross-, and in-breeding) to bank their $1,000s off of. There is a reason Mother Nature suppresses recessive genes: because they're weak!! ...and these capitalist pigs like to focus on and praise the weak and degenerate...talk about something wrong "up there." It should raise red flags...

Anyway, I've always liked WC specimens because they have a different essence or aura to them; it's the emanation of how they're supposed to be, of them naturally! Not just in colour/pattern, but their demeanor/disposition, too.

***

Me and my tangents. I apoligize. Hopefully it was amusing to some degree...and sorry it was in three parts; Kingsnake.com has their limits for people like me.
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T.J. Gould

...these forums are dead....write all you want....

.....I agree with you on all points I think....

I never kept hots...but have friends that do...so I could see all kinds of stuff anytime I wanted to...and trust them fully while with the hots...so no fears being around them...

I like the last part of part three...and yes it's the reason to have a wild...they know it...

....((I had over 100 ball pythons when I sold out...plus milks,rats and odds and end stuff....yea...morph ball pythons laying there...in the early 90's even back in the 80's I guess...people hated balls...they kind of grow on you $$$ ))

when I say raped herps...I mean over kill or over collected....as in dozensss of one species on a one week trip...and such...or hundreds of eggs ....legal and non-legal states...

I need a snake again !......if my basement dries out again....PA got hammered...like 6 ? plus inches of rain right here ....my yard is a foot deep?...plus...

later....>
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........JY

Holy [bleep], these forums are dead! Sorry it's taken me so long to respond; as I may or may not have shared the plans (I didn't go back far enough to catch up on what We were discussing), my girlfriend and I moved to PA on 18 October 2013, and We haven't had internet since. So, We hit up the library every 2-3 weeks when We can, and I have 72 emails left including this, HA!

So; quickly...

Indeed; in the right hands, which--relatively speaking, since Hot keepers are the minority within the herpetocultural hobby--We are more responsible* than others who might work with, say, Dart Frogs and Day Geckos.

One-hundred Python regius is a lot...I'd rather use the space for more various genera/species. As for people "hating" Royals in the 80s/early 90s, it's because most (Normal morphs, at least) were WC, and heavily (externally) parasitized. I swear: that was the species with the most ticks I had ever kept (and perhaps the only species with ticks I had ever kept!). And yes; the further back in Time You go (especially 60s/70s), the more dealers and keepers alike were into the newest are rarest species. Then money for "creations" dominated...ugh.

I understand You on the "raped herps" now. Hence, 'moderation' in my previous message. I don't care if it's legal to take 100 eggs in a season; a respectful and Nature-loving dealer would only take 50 (hopefully less), and so on.

Get a snake!! And no kidding; weather is brutal here...quite a flood zone, We hear.

Sincerely,
Timothy

*In regards to responsibility--and it may have seemed like comparing apples and oranges with Hots to Dart Frogs/Day Geckos--it also entails knowledge and research in providing optimum/proper habitats which can, for example, ensure proper sheds = less interaction between specimen(s) and keeper = less chance of bites = responsibility. Id est, Hot keepers better-create environments which result in less health issues.
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T.J. Gould