Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello,

i was wondering if i could get some feedback and advice from experienced people here. my 5 largest female westerns (120-200g) have all gone off feed for at least 2-3 weeks. the largest for a month. before a month ago, these 5 had been 2x a week steady feeders. i'm wondering if they are smelling the males and going through hormone changes, or something of that sort. the other possibility i can think of is that they are possibly ready for an early brumation.

i have a dozen hogs that i have all in the same large cabinet with a small ceramic heater maintaining 80-83 ambient. they have 14 hrs of light on a timer and 93 degree hot spot. i double checked and nothing has changed in the cabinet.

my smaller westerns and southerns are still eating like clockwork.

i was planning on waiting until nov-december to put them into brumation. think putting them in early would benefit? i know the smaller females are too small to breed, but would brumating them help as well?

any thoughts? experience? feedback?

thanks!
jonathan

Yes sir, something has changed, if you noticed, its fall, and its a time for change in the field. Its not a time of hibernation.

Once the days get shorter and the nights get cooler, hogs, as well as all other colubrids, move from areas that are not suitable, to areas that are suitable. Many adults may not, if their feeding season was highly successful. Neonates continue to feed heavily. In fact, Its in the middle of their feeding season.

In your care, you "think" air temps are important, so that is what you measure. The problem is, air temps are NOT important to snakes. Air temps are loosely related to mass temps, but are so far off, they are not important.

Snakes go by mass temps. As it cools down outside, the cool is passed onto the mass of your house. Do you use the AC as much now as you did last month????? That cool effects the mass of that cabinet you mentioned. That effects the animals. They sense the pending drop and need to move. But they cannot.

If you increased the ambients to the mid to high 80's say, 87F, they would continue to feed. If they are fat enough and have grown to a point your happy, then don't bother. But please understand, that is about you and your wants and needs. Its not about them.

In nature, they would move to areas of hotter mass. Open areas, west facing, with the longest sun exposure, for instance.

If you live in a area that is really cold, they will stay in the sunny areas, then once its to cold to use the surface or near the surface, you will go down to a suitable conservation temp, and stay behaviorally active(if your a breeder)

Anyway, its about your mass temps, that trigger their need to move and if they cannot, they shut down. As I said, is fine if they are at a point your happy with.

Its up to you as they are confined and cannot do it own their own. Best wishes

what gets me is, nothing noticeable has changed. i live in central florida. we are in a "cold front" at the moment, and it was still up to 90 degrees today. the a/c is still going, the cabinet has it's own heater to keep the ambient the same, lighting is the same, ect...

so... i'm not sure. maybe the smell of one of my males? not sure how much that would count. maybe the time of the year? still not sure. seems a big coincidence that all 4 of my larger ones went off feed though. i do agree that the smaller ones still feeding makes sense if they are naturally trying to gain size.

anyone have experience with females going off feed with westerns?

honestly though, if it was all about the snake, they would still be in the wild and no one would keep them in cages. yes, i try to make it as pleasant as possible for them and want them to thrive. yes, it is my wish that they continue to feed, thrive, and grow until i put them into brumation. i honestly don't see how anyone that keeps pets could say that it is all about them when they are in a cage.

jonathan

The way you guys take things and twist them is amazing. If a snake is in your box. Its your responsibility to learn about the snake.

Please help me understand you, is it about the water bowl? the substrate? I don't know, what's it about?

You said, Cold front, does anyone else have anything to say about fronts? Thanks

frank,

your last post is a prime example of why i was ignoring your post for week. i will continue to do so from now on.

you mentioned temps and seasons changing. i explained that i live in florida and even with a cold front it's still 90.

you keep saying "it's all about the snake" which is b.s. because if it was, the snake would be in the wild. i do attempt to learn what i can about reptiles. in the last 30 years i have read stacks of books and articles about reptiles in the wild and in captivity. just because i ask for experience or advice about a particular instance does not mean that i am totally ignorant about reptiles.

you obviously didn't have a clue to why they went off feed. you mentioned temps, to which there has been no change. then you come across with smart alec comments in return.

you come across with a very condescending and self righteous attitude. do you talk to people in person like that? if so, you are probably very lonely. maybe that's why you have so much time to blow up this forum with all of your condescending post??? i don't like to fire back like that, but you really do seem to attempt to aggravate people and seem to look for arguments.

i know i wouldn't stand there and let someone talk to me like that in person, and i am not going to continue to read your post for the same reason. i have better things to do with my time...

jonathan

I live in the North East. However, I have my snakes in a temperature controlled building. The temps can stay exactly the same all year round if I wanted to keep them that way. I keep my hog at normal temps and feeding as long as I can. Once the first few adults start to go off feed, that is when I start the rest of them. That can be anywhere between late Oct, and Nov.

The snakes will go off feed naturally to void their systems of any food in their systems before it starts to get cold. Many temperate species will do this.

How do they know when to do it? There are many theories out there. My belief is they get their cues from things other than temperature changes. I believe barometric pressure has a lot to do with it. I think barometric pressure influences a lot of their natural functions including breeding.

What you are seeing is quite normal in captivity. Is this behavior normal in the wild? I would imagine it is to a degree but we are not worried about what the wild ones are doing. We do not need to apply every wild aspect into our husbandry and this might mean going against their natural grain. We need to do what we can to support their captive behaviors. In some instances, what they do in the wild is indeed important to properly maintain their health in captivity but in other instances, what they do in the wild will not help us in their captive care.

Some keepers try to avoid brumation so they can keep their snakes up all year. In my opinion, it is much easier and much less stressful on me and the animals to allow them to do what seems to come naturally. A period of being dormant is natural and healthy. It also helps trigger and better predict ovulation and theoretically promotes higher quality sperm production.

Again Thank you Gregg. Their are many factors that allow reptiles to exist in nature. Their ability to sense what is going to happen is amazing. Do I know exactly what triggers them to avoid poor conditions. heck no! But weather fronts do effect them. And like you said, we THINK its more about pressure changes.
Heck in the old days, that's what folks thought caused snakes to copulate.
Its also not about hibernation or brumation. Its about changing weather.
I have nothing against reptiles conserving energy. I do not like the words hibernation or brumation, and not because of what he reptiles do or don't do, its about how people see it. They think of a bear. Which is not what reptiles do.
During periods summer or winter where conditions do not support high metabolism, they seek medium conditions to conserve. But they do not sleep. When they are down in the ground, they move about and do what appears to be some socialization type behaviors. But its ok to call it brumation or hibernation. Still they can be active and not sleeping.
Simply put, last year, I reported the last hog in the field of the year, was on 12/31. and it had just consumed a lizard. I was on my way to a New Years party at the research station. The temps had already dropped into the low teens at night.
Its also not about feeding, In nature, the normal breeding adults go long long periods without feeding. Not just winter, but up until they are done reproducing. July or August.
The key difference is, in nature they can drop their body temps into the mid fifties to the mid sixties in all but one or two months. So as soon as energy is not available, they conserve, winter or summer. In captivity, folks keep the temps in the 80's, which does not allow them to conserve.
I also reported last year, the lowest temps where I found hogs out crawling on the surface was 54 and 58F, which is below what most here bromate at. So you see my problem. End part 1

The problem I am addressing here is again odd. Again, folks go from A to Z. And there is no middle. Which is what the uneducated do.(I apologize for that, but its true)
Its has been known that changes in weather(fronts) effect reptile behavior. ITs been known since before I was born. So the poster saying nothing changed, was wrong, something did change.
The key is, what did the change do? In most cases, if the snake still has a need to feed, it temporarily stops feeding. It may be as simple as, is this a Blue northern(for you Fla folks) So they do not want food in their stomachs as Gregg mentioned when the temps drop. But if the temps do not drop, they DO resume feeding and activity, if needed.
Normally, the first cold front in the late fall causes snakes to seek their wintering sites. Not to go down, but just be near them. Why you ask, because wintering sites are SAFE during cold temps.
I photographed a mistake once, where a snake I was watching stayed near the suface, a rock crevice, when a cold front passed thru and dropped a few inches of snow. I went out the next day and found the snake dead on the ground below its crevice. yet the others I was watching made it to safe conditions. One of those had just consumed a large lizard. I did find it later, it was safe and did not even regurg its meal.
So yes, I do see this stuff differently then most of you and its because I am exposed to different information.
In short, what I see and report from the field is the ACTUAL truth, what we see in cages is the LIMITED truth. Maybe 1/100th of the actual truth(the truth is the animal) Cheers and beers

Hey Frank,
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that snakes in brumation are not sleeping. In fact even when they are in the low 50's, they are still active, moving, and even taking a drink once in a while. However their movements are very slowed. Its actually funny to watch a hog tongue flick when they are cold. Its almost like a rattle snake tongue flick.

We commonly see snakes out and active in the 40's And their movement is very very slow. Once I observed a Gravid C.willardi out in Late dec. at about 6300 ft elev. It was drinking water from a mostly frozen bit of water. It could move slowly but as soon as we disturbed it(we have too on that study) the snake went into convulsions, just slowly rolling over and over, like a slow hog.
I think folks, maybe not you, do not give these animals credit. When they are at the lower temps, the snakes fully understand they cannot move quickly and do not move in areas where they will need to move quickly. Yes, its rare but does occur, that snakes cross roads at low temps, they mostly work the shadows when cold.
Whats funny is, I have also seen five species of pythons cross roads at temps between 55f and 65F, which is again below what folks hibernated them at(in many cases) Again thanks for playing.

Great post Gregg. Mike Bodner

Gregg,

Thanks to the feedback and sharing your experience. That was very helpful! Those are along the lines that I was thinking, but it is nice to get some first hand experience and knowledge.

I had not heard the theory about the barometric pressure. That seems plausible along with the internal instincts telling them that it's time to slow down and rest. I believe I will follow your lead and let them rest. If they want to feed soon, then so be it. If not, then they will get cooled down a little early.

Thanks for sharing...
Jonathan

ITs not telling them to slow down and rest, When a front is coming its telling them not to have food in their stomachs if it gets cold. Then they resume feeding well into Nov.

What yours do is based on your conditions, and in many cases have very little to do with their instincts. They don't seek constant temps, they don't feed of a schedule. etc etc. Best wishes

First Jon, I could careless what you do, ignore of not. If you ask me, its being really silly and a bit like an ostrich. You know, its not going your way, so you stick your head in a hole.
Let me offer some advice and its not about snakes.

The first lesson in field work is, DO NOT GO IN THE FIELD THINKING YOU KNOW(anything) Doing that hinders our ability to learn. You go in the field to learn. So, you take data. You do not tell nature what its doing. It is TELLING YOU.
Here, asking questions is like that, you do not have to like the answers but to blame the person trying to help you, makes you the Arse. You do not have to take any advice or learn anything, that is your choice. But to kick the gift horse in the mouth, is all about what kind of person you are.
You seem to be a typical example of prejudice, you ask a question, then act like you already know the answer. You had already rationalized some odd scenario that was not accurate. You made it about temps, when it was not about temps. While temps and humidity are a base, its not nearly everything.
You get mad at me because I have the nads to say it like it is. The truth is, these words cannot hurt anyone, they can only help. And help you. But if you do not want help, then stop asking questions. hahahahahahahahaha Truthfully, I don't care what you do or what you learn, not for your sake, but I do care for your animals sake.
Something else that gets in your way is, you think your smart. but again, that's in error. You may be smart, unfortunately, its not about that, its about education, and your silly not educated in this area(YET).
About feeding with wild adult breeders, they feed heavily and do all their growth, during three months, july, august, and sept. And they do not stop feeding because of temps, they stop because theres no more food available. During those three months, they feed daily or as much as they can eat, they seek high temps and digest food quickly. On the otherhand,

On the other hand, in captivity, you feed on a different schedule, based on different temps, which are nothing like what the hognose are designed to work with. So yes, go stick your head in a hole. Cheers and best wishes to your snakes. hahahahahahahahaha I really should keep saying that.

Jon, why bother! It's a waste of your time trying to reason with ignorance! I really hate to speak ill of the dead, but at times they don't know their dead yet! Snake Zombies! Beware of the Zombies, you can't converse intelligently with em, so why bother!

Make your point and move on!

I had the same cold front come though and saw a pressure drop to 29.71, on that day both of mine were very active. They were moving around big time, so I decided to try and feed them thinking they were hungry. First time ever they both took pink's from a tong right away. Temps, no change since they were born 77 to 83F.

kids will be kids,

Frank,

I apologize for that last post. I should not have made the last couple o derogatory comments.

You do have a way of writing post that are condescending and often argumentative. For those reasons, I am going to refrain from reading them.

Jonathan

A couple of things Jon, condescending is odd. As its you that precieve me that way, as in better then you. I never claim to be better then any one. I may have more experience then you or many others. But that does not make better then.

I would never argue with Gregg about producing hognose. Why, because he has way more experience then I. I would and did suggest a method of nesting that helps the females. He listened then applied what I was saying in his way in his circumstances. That's how its done. Its not about worse or better or right or wrong. That is your view.

About argumentative, I do have experience and if I have seen something hundreds of times, and I report it to you and you are the one that fights back and forth about it. Well its you being argumentative.

Also, If someone has lots of experience and some one else is new, in the area of husbandry, the one with lots and lots of successful experience is superior to the other. In that sense.

You seem to think your know so much, and are willing to fight about it. That is what is odd. Like fronts, you were dead set that its all about temps, when any one with experience knows there is more to it then temps. Like barometric pressure or something we do not have a label for.

If you wanted to talk about how snakes sense the world around them, I would love to have that talk and would offer you some interesting things to think about.

But that's not you, you are new and think your smart. Only theres a problem with that. Smart is knowing the effects of experience. Heres something to think about, you could be five times smarter then me. But I would still know more about snakes then you. Why? because I have been doing what "your" doing for a very long time. Think about that. Think about what you would know 40 years from now, then think about some kid arguing with you. Best wishes

frank,

i did not read you whole responses, not will i.

i did catch the "kid" comment though. i'm 35 yrs old, not a kid

when i was a kid, i used to read every thing i could about reptiles and nature. i got by first boa for a pet when i was 12 yrs old. i am just a small time hobbyist, but have been at it for over 20 yrs

i don't doubt that you have a lot of experience with reptiles and especially field herping. HOWEVER, i have not asked any questions about field herping. you always respond with comments about how they are in nature, although you have not observed every reptile out there.

so far, i have asked questions about captive breeding hognose. you have never failed to respond by commenting and saying that "it's all about me when it should be about the snakes", which is not true. if it was, they would still be in the wild.

you have a way of writing down to people and making it seem like other people don't know anything because they do not have your filed experience. if i was asking about field herping, you might have a leg to stand on. EVEN IF I WAS asking about something you had vastly more experience at, you still have no right to talk down to people. maybe it's the way you are all the time. personally, i chose not to be around people like that in person or read there stuff on here.

when i ask questions on here, i am mainly directing them to people with people with experience keeping and breeding hognose such as gregg, troy, billy, or a dozen other guys that have given good advice about captive breeding experience without the condescending attitude.

all of that being said, by all means......

FEEL FREE TO STOP RESPONDING TO THIS "KID'S" POST

i am not going to read them, and you are wasting your time. although from the extreme number of lengthy post you clutter this forum with, you seem to like to see your writing all over the place.

funny part is, i have literally had 4 other people pm me and share the same feelings :/

jonathan