Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

I'm somewhat new to keeping NA rat snakes (last two years) and have run into my first persistent problem that has me quite worried:

I have a 2011 trans pecos rat that I acquired a little over a year ago. He has been extremely healthy for nearly all of that time, but this past summer (early August) he went off food, whereas prior to that he had been taking young adult mice weekly. I've had other snakes stop eating like this so didn't force the issue, just offered food each week well into September.

In early/mid September he finally took a small mouse (right after defecating for the first time in a while). He digested this just fine. Since then, I have offered meals weekly and he has either refused or accepted and later regurgitated (now a total of 3 times).

His cage setup has remained relatively unchanged throughout the entire duration in my care: 40 gallon low breeder tank with underpad heater; ~85 at the warm end, ~75 at the cool end. I've played with things a bit to try and make him more comfortable, but don't know what variables to try beyond these basic guides. I've read a bit about moist hides and was wondering if folks had success with these and subocs.

Any other advice is greatly appreciated!

Best regards,
Eric

Eric - First, the two possible issues you are talking about are very different problems. The first thing to do is to make certain which is happening - regurgitation or refusal. Food refusal is usually not as big a problem as regurgitation, and can be due to several things. If you don't already have it, I highly reccommend Dusty Rhoads's book "The Complete Suboc".

First (regarding refusal) consider the possibilities which are least severe - it is getting cooler right now in the range of Trans-Pecos rats, and he may be slowing down on feeding due to wanting to shutdown / hibernate / brumate. Another possibility is security - some snakes are more secretive than others, and may want / need more hides, or different types of hides. Since you are keeping it in a glass tank, it may feel stressed from being exposed when not hiding. I would provide several hiding options in such a setup, of various sizes, including two moist hides - one in the cool end and one in the warm end. Another thing which works for some snakes is laying a thick layer of newspaper on top of a deep layer of substrate, which the snake can hide under and move from one end to the other without being exposed. Remember - easy viewing of the snake is a convenience for you - it does not make the snake feel secure to be watched. On moist hides - depending on how humid it is where you live, you may not need to keep a moist hide moist all of the time. I use a moist / dry hide complex for many of my ratsnakes of various species, which consists of a moist hide inside / under a larger dry hide, which many shy snakes really like. The space between the dry and moist hide are enough for the snake to squeeze into - not too open and not too tight. If the snake is refusing meals, I would give him a couple weeks and then offer one smaller than normal mouse - if he was taking small adults, then offer a fuzzy or small hopper. I have had subocs go off feeding on f/t mice, and have gotten them feeding again by giving them live mice. This option works okay for me, because I breed mice, but may not be the best option for you. The problem is that they will sometimes switch to only wanting live mice.

If the snake is regurging its food, this can be due to some very serious issues, and subocs can be difficult to bring back from regurging issues. If the snake is regurging, I suggest first getting the snake to a vet to be evaluated, and have a fecal sample tested for parasites. Some people claim they have had subocs regurge when water (in the water bowl) is left in the cage during / immediately after feeding time, and once the water was removed, the problem went away. Due to the habitat subocs come from, the species needs very well ventilated caging - and since I am guessing you have him in a screen topped glass tank, this is considered well ventilated. The temps you mentioned are okay, but remember that there need to be hides in both warm and cool ends. If the snake is shy and is forced to sit in a hide at temps which are not conducive to digestion, this can also cause issues. If the snake has no parasitic or bacterial issues, I would let it clear its guts for three weeks and then offer it a much smaller than usual prey item, like a fuzzy mouse.

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I would not keep water in the cage just before and after feeding. Cage should be well-ventilated for subocs. Honestly, you can offer water 1 day out of 7 and be fine. Subocs are not like most American ratsnakes in that regard.

It is my own opinion that it is better to have a humid hide (when needed only - if your ambient humidity is already moderate, then it is not needed) than a water bowl 24/7. And I let the humid hide dry out between mistings.

Food refusal in Aug is pretty darn normal for many captive arid-zone reptiles. Then they sometimes eat again in Sep, then refuse all Winter. Not sure about wild subocs, but captive ones can do this once they are mature. Totally fine. Don't fight it.

I would start with the water bowl removal. I would also let the cool end get cool, really cool. Place some newspaper over the entire cage area so the snake can stay hidden anywhere it goes.

A fecal is best to determine if the problem is bacterial, etc. Stress can cause a bacterial imbalance resulting in regurgitation. When the good bacteria needed for digestion is outnumbered or out-competed by the bad bacteria, regurgitation is the result. The underlying cause is usually stress, and the root cause of the stress can be temperature-related, etc. And some individuals stress more than others.

If you want a ratsnake that is almost bullet-proof, get a black rat or yellow rat. With subocs, get the suboc book and start reading, because subocs can be very sensitive if things are not just right.

Hi Toby and Mark,

Thanks to both of you for the helpful guidance! I will remove the water bowl, triple check my temps and add more hides (there are currently just two (one in each end; both dry) and he tends to move back and forth between them as expected. I'll also add some more complex substrates like newspaper to help out.

I'm not sure where our closest reptile vet is near Ann Arbor, MI, but will look into this too. If I can't find one, do either of you know of places where one can mail in a sample? This is obviously not optimal, but may be the best I can find. I also run a microbiology lab that focuses on lower GI bacteria, so should be able to look into eukaryotic parasites myself (treatment will require professional help though).

He's regurgitated 3/4 of his last 4 meals which have all been smaller fuzzy mice. I also breed my own and for the last two times he's taken live ones. I let him go two weeks in between, but will try three this time and hopefully get some resolution on parasites before then.

I also keep a black rat, everglades, western fox, bairds and okeetee corn, plus garters which are all thriving, so this downturn has really got me worried. I've seen the Complete Suboc online and haven't bought it, but will this evening.

Thanks again and best regards,
Eric

No problem, Eric - and I also agree 100% with everything Mark said - he hit on some things I did not.

Another issue which can be stressful to a suboc is photoperiod. In nature, subocs are completely nocturnal, and if they are not provided a quiet, dark night time period they can become highly stressed. I feed my subocs after all of the other species I keep, and leave them with their food in the dark. I have a designated "snake room" which I can close the door to, and which maintains natural photoperiod via a window. I use dim "party" light bulbs to work in the snake room at night, and this helps keep the room fairly dark while still giving me enough light to work by.

There are also some probiotics for reptiles on the market - the best might be Nutribac DF, which can be found easily online. I have used it a few times for young snakes which have regurged once or twice (most likely due to stress), and if there are no serious problems (major bacterial infection or heavy parasite load) it seems like it may help somewhat. If your snake has regurged several times though, this may be of no use to you.

I don't know of any mail order place you might send a fecal sample. You might just start calling vets in your area, or looking online. There are no specific reptile vets, they are called exotics vets - they treat everything outside the "norm", including reptiles. For bacterial infections in snakes, Baytril is usually the medication used for treatment.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Thanks again Toby,

Come to think of it, a behavior that occurred at the same time as the eating problems was "extra activity, searching and digging in the substrate, even when the lights were on". I thought this might be seasonal activity such as searching for a mate, but maybe he's just not comfortable?

I keep all of my snakes in one room, too, with lights on a timer and an outside window. The problems began at the same time as setting up the summer timer with longer daylight. I've been reducing the photoperiod since we're getting into fall and my colder climate snakes will be starting brumation in late November. But, the suboc really thrived when he was out of that room on a shorter photoperiod and with a lot more natural lighting at sunset. For example, he would reliably come out and climb in his limbs just after the lights went out almost every night.

So, maybe its worth bringing him back out on his own to see how he does? I've already added two additional hides and will get substrate to make two of them moist tomorrow.

Eric

Yep, sounds like he is stressed - and could also have a bacterial infection, so I would still get fecals tested, etc.

I don't really consider subocs to be fragile, but they are "sensitive" in some ways. I think they need a definite quiet and dark night period, and they should not be kept in high traffic areas.

You might also try blocking at least three walls of the snake's cage - the less exposed the better in my opinion.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research