Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's getting to be that time of year....
Out of curiosity, how if you brumate are you doing it?

Location Area:state

Temps:lows/highs

Period:time kept

Containers:type

Notes:

What are some of the things you notice about your snakes during this time of year?

How does it change when you bring them out of brumation?

Just wanting to see how others are doing things......if you don't want to post in public, email...I'm just curious to see what others are doing.

Sorry Austin, its just you and I, no one wants to talk to us or post about hogs. Very very odd.

About your question, I would not and do not brumate neonates.

In nature, around here, as along as food is available, the neonates are active and feeding. Even if they weren't, there is not need to cool them, unless your tired of them and want a break.

With adults, I put them in a cool room if I bromate them, which this year I am going to with a couple of females. I think by the end of the year. As of now, my adults are feeding and growing, so its not advisable to stop that. My possible breeders are all young first time females.

Going by the advice here, one is almost 300 grams, so that one is large enough, another almost 200 grs. It should be that magic 200grs by the end of the year, and the last one is about 180grams. May wait on that one. Best wishes

I used to brumate once I started breeding but due to inconsistent and uncontrollably cold temps where I used to brumate my snakes (in the garage). I stopped the practice and have found that it has no negative side effects on my snakes nor their ability to mate. In fact, my snakes have proven time and again that they generally prefer to mate in the Fall and Winter time anyways.

I am now of the firm belief that most breeders that choose to brumate these days mainly do so to get a break from consistent maintenance of their collection for a few months (while saving money as well). Some of these people still cling to the unproven belief that it is important to the overall welfare of the animal. I have yet to see any evidence proving this other than conjecture based on anecdotes.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Hi Troy, I think I/we we are interested in what brumation is and none brumation. That is, what were the temps and how were they supported.

Please understand, I agree with you, hard brumation is not a choice that snakes make, its something forced on them, either by nature or keepers. If you look at kings and hogs, they also occur in areas that do not get cold. And are active year around. Yet folks brumate them(and claim its required)

So if you don't mind, could you say what your winter conditions are and what you call brumation conditions. Thanks

I know a few guys who also quit brumating and have say they have seen better breeding activity and fertility. In both of their cases they think the light cycle is the key. I'm not sure as I still brumate. I keep a lot of corns and kings and my hog all in the same room, so they all go down together. Yes, I do like the break! I will eventually be going with the non-cooling method shortly, but I need to move some animals around and down size to make space in the "warm" room.
My temps drop to 55 and go up as high as 62 this time of year. I am in North Idaho so cooling is really easy. Before I coolded the whole room, I cooled animals in the incubator the was in the garage. Light is on a timer and only comes on six hours a day. They stay down for two month or so before I start warming things up. For the record, the animals are very inactive at 55, but get to 62 and they are more active than I would have guessed.
As I said before, I will be trying thing without brumation by next season and I can see many good reasons for doing it this way.
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Steve Perry
facebook.com/StevePerryReptiles

I think there may be something to the light cycle. Through the range of all North American snakes that hibernate and don't the hours of light per day fluctuates through the year. Not to mention some Amphibian species require a slightly fluctuating light cycle in order to stay healthy and reduce stress. It would also make sense for at least Eastern Hogs. They have been reported to breed during all seasons in their southern range but stick more towards spring breeding. Being Diurnal the increase in hours of light per day may have a stimulating effect for the females to begin laying pheromone trails. I don't know if this is actually what happens or not as far as stimulation goes, it could be wrong or it could just be a part of a greater whole, but it makes some sense to me.

Hi again, I would like to ask some question, as a field herper. Please understand, your reply was theoretical which is great, and so are my questions. My questions are based on field experience. The field information, are reports.

With the hogs I am watching. They(the majority) stay underground, as soon as it gets dry, neonates stay active much longer then healthy adults. This starts in Nov. and goes until mid june to july. The majority stay underground where there is no lite what so ever. As in zero. The temps from mid march on, are very suitable.

During there active surface season, they only come to the surface for very short periods and normally only to travel from one set of holes to another. On average, the individuals which come to the surface, only see sun lite for an hour or less. Also the percentage that use the surface on an average active day, is very very low, aprox 7%. In short, they, the majority, never see sun lite, the vast majority of the time they are in completed darkness.

Also, a lite bulb, for them, is kinda like a normal candle is to us, when you compare it to the sun. There almost no comparison to the amount and type of lite that the sun has.

I will say this, hogs are not fond of moving on the surface at night. It happens, but again, very rarely.

All breeding and nesting is done during the season of little to no surface activity. So in our case, I cannot see how photoperiod can have anything to do with it. Thanks

That does make sense for westerns and southerns too, I used easterns as my reference because that's what I have mostly. I think the westerns and southerns would be closely related in behavior because both are more suited to living underground than easterns. Easterns, at least in NWF, don't burrow much and spend more time on the surface in areas with good ground cover because in areas where they occur most here the ground is too solid to burrow easily. I know this is about westerns originally, was just commenting about hypothetical ideas .

I lived in central Fla and worked with easterns there. They lived mostly in pine sandy areas and also were in the ground most of the time, but not to the extent westerns/Mexicans are.

One thing when observing nature, is to understand context. In your case, what are the hogs doing when on the surface? If you break down elements of their lives, It make its a bit easier to understand what you seeing.

Are they actively breeding on the surface? Actively feeding? etc. and if not on the surface, where? For instance, pairing and breeding. Each and every healthy adult female must do both. And in Fla, that's tens of thousands of female hogs. Yet, pairing and copulation is a rare observation. Feeding, is an ongoing event that occurs by the millions, yet that too is rarely observed. See what I mean, even shedding, every single snake does that several times a year, but how often is it observed, and how often are sheds seen on the surface?

So when thinking about what snakes do, particularly in nature, you may want to make a list of what behaviors they have to do to exist, then see if any of the animals observed are doing any of these things. In most cases, folks act as if the snakes are doing nothing and pick them up, which disturbs any normal behavior. Try following some. Often times it leads to another hog. Best wishes and just something to think about.

Feeding: I have observed countless times on surface during evening.
Breeding: Only ever read reports from northern states but in those areas (even with sandy deep soil) it occurred on surface and so did pairing. I'll try to see if my college's data base still has access to the study on Heterodon platirhinos pairing, courtship, and mating behavior.
Shedding: Seen 4 times on surface and my captives with soil 6 inches deep shed on surface. Most rough surfaces to help them are on surface and the local ground cover holds humidity rather well.
All the burrowing and burrows that I have seen are just enough to fit under placed rocks and fallen logs. I have found that flat pieces of broken trees (about 2 inches thick of rotting wood) and then flat-rocks are their preferred hiding areas (unless Gopherus polyphemus is present).

When I have observed burrowing it tends to be very brief, usually to just get under a surface object or to dig up a toad, their nose seems better designed to penetrate logs and harder soils whereas western/mexican and southerns are better suited to digging extensively through soil.

Also as I said this is just locals. I don't have time or money to travel, I wish I did because I REALLY want to go to the central Florida ridge - mainly because I have heard that its really great for hognoses haha.

The point I am making is, What number are those observations you cited? You know, one, two, three, or thousands, as those behaviors occur in huge numbers, as I mentioned, by every healthy female.

A friend and I were talking yesterday, on ways to get folks to grasp concepts that are hard to grasp. In a case like this we came up with some funny analogies. So please laugh, If an alien caught you swimming in the ocean then took you and put in in a fish tank, would that work? The truth is, tens of thousands of people swim in the ocean, but that does not make them aquatic.

If I would theorize about eastern hogs and western hogs, I would come up with something a bit different then you. I would think that easterns are adapted to soils that are softer and loose. More so then westerns. As their bodies are not so adapted for hard burrowing. I will throw you a curveball. I think their ability to utilize soft soils is more about predators then the ability to burrow.

On one site I look at, its soft soils and the two most dominate species are hogs and mohaves, which both have a physical protection against predators. On the other site, its more hard soils and such species as gophersnakes, longnose, etc, are dominate as they can utilize hard ground as a protection against predators. Anyway, have a great day.

Please understand, this conversation is not about right or wrong, its about understanding the animal(hognose)

I do not know where you live, but you mentioned in your area the ground is hard. Then you mention going south where the ground is not and there's more hogs.

This does bring up a great point. In the areas I am working hogs, one is very soft soils and most of what they do is underground. As far as I can tell, they only come to the surface to move to another area of to/of burrows. The other site I am looking at has rock hard ground, for the most part.

In the area of soft substrate, they are a dominate species. In the hardpacked area, they are not, in fact fairly rare.

This hinds of what there design is good for. Where do they compete the best.

In ethology, they say, species, subspecies, etc, are not important. All snakes were/are something on its way to being something else. (Ube Krebs,PHD)

Yeah, I think there may be something to it as far as local soil-consistency and types. My cousin has an eastern from North Carolina and it burrows quite a bit and he has loose soil for it. I have loose sandy soil for both of mine and yet they won't do more than go under flat rocks in their cages. They root around a bit when they are hunting for toads in their cages but they don't actively burrow all the way, just the first few inches of their body.

Not to mention my original comment on light-signaled mating was about snakes in general , everything from Amazon Tree Boas to semi-fossorials such as hognoses.

Try different conditions, usually when something does not do X in captivity, its because they do not recognize something, the way you the keeper does.

If the soil in your cage is not suitable, they simply will not use it. It could be too dry, too wet, too dirty, stagnant, etc.

Reptiles in nature, know what works and what does not, They do not attempt to dig in what is not suitable, they do dig in what is suitable, etc. All species I have worked with have a preference to what soil types, what rock types(feel) what wood types, that they seek. There is no question that they seek what is "comfortable" to them. As in, feels right.

Just for fun, how about looking up hognose in any field guide and reading about its habitat and preferred soil type. Most field guides do include that information. And yes, as mentioned, there are always exceptions to a degree. Species adaptions are a product of the whole, not every little peripheral habitat.

It would be great if you could include pics of your hogs and their soil types, both in captivity and in the field. Particularly in the field. Heck, one my brother in law, and I observed a Banded rock rattlesnake, at the very top of an oak tree. He said, FR, do snakes climb, I said yes, but its not normal around here, why? he said, because I think I see a snake in the top of that tree, across the canyon. I looked and said where, he pointed, then I saw the dang snake, it fell out of the top of that dang tree. We ran over and sure enough, an adult male rock rattlesnake. Cheers

Yeah, I've read tonnes of field guides from new to old (Heterodon contortrix contortrix to Heterodon platirhinos ).

I do a monthly soil change, 15 gallons of semi-fine soil from an area that I find both easterns and southerns in, the soil is the same through the entire area of about 300 acres. It does get dirty over time. I have tried wetting it in the past (just a bit) to try and make it more damp but then when it dries out it packs like most of the forest-field areas around here. I have got some "burrowing" out of my male eastern by using turkey-oak leaves but he just burrows into the leaves and still doesn't really go under ground. I tried gradually induced brumation as well to try and trigger hibernation and yet again, only goes under a flat-rock, doesn't burrow.

Also I would like to post some pics every now and then, I have been trying to get this forum to work with that but it just won't for some reason, I get as far as finishing the upload then nothing. I check the folder I made, search the name I gave to file, search the files original name, nothing comes up. Might have to resort to using links.

Hi again, I mentioned field guides, So you would tell me here, what they said. And please, we will get the some fun stuff, in due time. But we have to break down the things that are misleading.

I mentioned ethology, in ethology, they do not consider any animal static. Its always changing. In one talk I went to, an ethologist explained he was a rarity, in that most ethologist work with OTHER types of animals and not reptiles(varanids). He explained how behavior is always ahead of adaption. Even if to a small degree, but sometimes to a huge degree. The world is in a constant state of change, its always evolving. And so are the animals. So to exist, the animals must test and stay ahead of adaption, or one change would wipe them out.

In our case, hognose of all types were and are based(adapted to) soft soils, as in pine woods etc in the east. While they are common and dominate in their preferred habitat, they are surely not 100% restricted to that. Which may indeed be the case of what your trying to explain. As I mentioned, we have both soft soiled hog populations and hard soiled populations here. In our case, in soft soiled areas hognose are a dominating snake species. In the hard soiled, they are not. But they are there.

Another example, sidewinders occur and are adapted to sandy deserts, sand dunes etc and have many physical adaptions for living there. I live right next to a national park that mountains, canyons. Away from the park there are low silty areas that sidewinders are common in. Yet, right by me, there is a population of sidewinders that lives up in the rocky hillsides. No sand, no soft anything. Harsh rocky hills etc. But they are there.

So when we are talking about an animal, where would you assign that animal, to the majority of this habitat and range, or to small exceptions? I will reply to your captive tests when I get back. Thanks and have a great day.

Yeah, I never said that the field guides didn't agree with you haha. Most of the soft-soiled areas in my county are on restricted military test sites or restricted management areas where southern hognose snakes and flat woods salamanders are quite common and they (military and US/Florida FWC) don't want people messing with them. I got invited to one ONCE to look for southerns. I didn't find any which makes because everything I have read about them said they are almost always underground in sandy soils and the site use to be a bomb-test site during the Vietnam war (now laser range testing - no explosives) and all the soil was extremely loose.

It seems though that locally (I'm not saying nor did I ever say their entire range), they stick to above-ground and just-under-surface areas. I believe there is a reason for this though. The soil around where I live and look for hognoses is only very sandy for about 8 inches at the most in some public access areas. The ground cover being leafs, branches, and logs is all abundant and deep. The toads that the hognoses prey on burrow very little, they just dig into leaf piles or get under logs and stay put. Even during winter the toads still seem to not burrow. Last night was 27 Fahrenheit and I still found one this morning outside under a piece of placed ply-wood in my yard. The toads, not doing much to burrow, would give to immediate cause for the hognoses to burrow. The toads are right there, so why waste energy if they don't have to. As far as eggs I have found 3 nests, all in some of the sandier areas, all 4-6 inches bellow the soil (never said they don't burrow, just said not much). And then as far as hibernation, there is more than enough root-holes, stump-holes, mouse-holes, pocket-gopher burrows, and gopher tortoise burrows. I have seen several easterns during winter out sunning on gopher tortoise aprons and up-rooted trees facing east into a field to get morning sun.

I guess the disagreement if there is any is, your idea that their nose is for digging is leaf litter and rotten logs for toads. While they can surely use it for that. Hognose in general are from sandy soils and live down in the soil. As I mentioned, we have locals here with hard soils, but also as mentioned, they are not designed for that.

Which is the beauty of nature. they will do what they can to exist.

Your report on them using gopher torts burrows is very similar to here. Only here its badger burrows. When you look down in the burrows, you see side hognose burrows.

Anyways, please try and post pics, try hosting them on photo bucket. That's what I do. I and I am sure others would love to see some pictures of easterns in nature, under tin or boards or any which way.

This next summer I am going to work on those areas here with hardpack soils. Its going to be very interesting. You have given me some ideas. In the soft soils, toads and lizards can burrow anywhere. Lizards seems to be their prime diet here. Learning where the lizards and toads go in hard packed soils would lead me to those hogs. Thanks.

On the note of finding in hard soil here is what I have noted for local easterns in regards to prey:

Generally the toads will burrow in depressions that are easier to see from a distance than up close. The reason being water collects during raid and makes the soil a little more loose. If no depressions are available then they seek logs and discarded concrete rocks that have damp soil under them. I noted if I check a spot more than once a year it disturbed the micro-climate too much and ruins that spot, luckily I caught on after my first year. Easterns will be on the side of the depressions or in them while hunting, otherwise they seek shelter in higher spots that will drain and not flood out during rain, which may actually be why I don't find many burrowing. Florida is supposed to have more rain than in recent years except this past summer, which would explain why this year's hatchlings have been lower than larger adults which are more uphill. I am not familiar with the typical rain patterns in your area so it may be different (might be learned behavior).

The water table is rather high around here compared to almost everywhere else in Easterns' range, even for sand hills, which may cause the humidity to pick up too quickly if they burrow too deep. I have read in numerous care sheets that a humidity too high can cause skin lesions which I found on an eastern this past August in some flat woods in Wakulla County Fla while on vacation.

Thanks for posting. Do you have a model of the temps used for non brumation? You know, that's been done successfully with hogs, thanks again.

Dear FR:
I need the temps for non brumation breeding of western hognose.
Would you be so kind as to share it?

Additionally, if brumating at 50F and returning the animal to a
tub in an 82F room, what should the warm spot be?
What is the temperature above which the sperm is killed in the male or the eggs are killed in the female? Is 82F the correct
temp for the room after brumation; is a warmer zone needed?
Thank you.

Those are the questions I was asking others, thanks