Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone else noticed that when you go to feed your Hog, no matter how hard you try and feed the rodent face first, it usually attacks it from the side and then proceed to eat it ass first? Very seldom do mine ever eat their food head first.....strange!

Evidence they could egg eaters historically. On my site, they do feed on lizard eggs, in the spring early summer. I have hoped to catch them feeding on turtle eggs but did not. I did find hogs gravitating to where turtles nested, but no evidence they ate their eggs. In order, lizards, toads, eggs, so far.

Yep! I have noticed the same thing! That is interesting, isn't it?

-----
Genesis 1:1

Considering the size of my collection and the 7 years I've been keeping/breeding hognose, it's interesting to see the differences in not only collective behavior but individual behavior as well.

In regards to collective behavior, hognose, despite being part of the colubrid family that includes many constrictors such as rat snakes and kingsnakes, hognose are not constrictors. Out of every single individual I have ever kept, and we're talking a few hundred, I have never once ever witnessed a single constriction of a prey item (always mice but never on either f/t mice or live). Perhaps this is due to several or more different factors including: territory/available prey items, overall body build (hognose are far more stout than per se a corn or a king), being rear-fanged, etc.

What is interesting about constrictors, at least from the various species of rat snakes and kingsnakes I've owned as well as ball pythons, when these snakes strike at live prey, they always seem to intentionally strike at the head and then constrict the body. Of course this is known behavior because it's preferable to neutralize the head which is the most dangerous part, what with the teeth and all, and then constricting the body to ultimately cause suffocation.

If this constricting behavior is generally used amongst various species of snakes around the world for the reason of safety (for the snake of course) in the apprehension of rodents, then why don't hognose exhibit this behavior with mice? It's probably because mice don't account for much, if any, of the diet of hognose in the wild.

When I first started keeping hognose, I tried live hopper and sub-adults with some of my adult females and it was a haphazard event at best. The hognose always seemed to over-strike the mouse which was often dexterous and fast enough to elude the hognose strikes. But when the mouse was eventually struck into, usually in the mid-section, it had a means of fighting back and sometimes getting away. It wasn't long after that I stopped the practice of feeding live mice that were hoppers or older simply because of the inherent risks to the hognose. However live pinkies and fuzzies have not shown to be a problem and are still used and preferable to those few stubborn ones that refuse f/t.

My deduction from witnessing this was that mice were probably low on the menu list of prey items that hognose were evolved into eating.

It's been mentioned that hognose have been known to eat eggs, and of that I have no doubt since most reptiles are known to be opportunity eaters, eating whatever is available and easy. However, I doubt that hognose evolved to be egg eaters for one simple fact, they are rear-fanged and venomous. From my knowledge, no known egg eating snake has/needs fangs/venom. They might have specialized teeth or bone structures to help aid in the eating of eggs, but not fangs/venom.

What other North American snakes have fangs/venom and don't constrict? Vipers such as rattlesnakes. But the key difference here is that these vipers have strong enough venom to kill it's prey and very quickly, therefore they don't need to constrict.

But hognose don't have venom that appears to be lethal to rodents, at least not in any fast acting sense. So what is the purpose of such a weak venom system? What does hognose's main diet consist of that it needs rear-fangs, weak venom and no ability to constrict? That's been the big question for many years. The common answer is toads/frogs, but nobody has ever really been able to prove that theory to any real known degree, it's just become part of the commonly accepted presumptions about hognose snakes.

Earlier I mentioned individual behavior. What is interesting to me is that there seems to be about 3 different personality types when it comes to captive feeding responses: passive, passive/aggressive and aggressive.

Passive eaters are those that don't seem to be excited when their enclosure is opened and don't seem all that interested in approaching the handler nor the food item. However, when the food item is placed in front of them, they will eventually eat it, some more quickly than others. The key here though is that there is no discernable display of action towards the food item other than the simple act of eating it. The overall process seems very controlled and subdued.

Passive/aggressive eaters are totally different than passive eaters. These snakes are often actively moving in their tubs when they are hungry and usually get excited when their enclosure is opened. However, this excitement often ranges from defensive behaviors such as playing dead, excreting feces/musk, hissing and head butting. These displays are often witnessed at not only the keeper but the prey item as well. However, once the perceived "threat" level is reduced in the hognose's mind, then the prey item usually is quickly consumed.

Aggressive eaters are the completely opposite of passive eaters and pretty much fearless when compared to the passive/aggressive eaters. Aggressive eaters are the ones that move quickly to the front of their enclosure when they view the keeper and often lunge out of their enclosure with mouths wide open to bite anything they can, whether that be the food item, the keeper, the enclosure or even themselves. These animals are so fearless and assertive that nothing seems to deter them from wanting to bite anything and everything in the hopes of getting their food item as quickly as possible.

One common thing about the passive/aggressive and aggressive eaters though is that they can be known to strike at their food items. What is interesting about this striking behavior is that with hognose, they rarely seem to strike at the head. Instead, they usually over-strike their prey item and whip around to either bite it in the mid-section or the rear. Again, this raises the question of: what kind of prey item is the hognose specialized in that it requires fangs/weak venom AND doesn't constrict but strikes the mid-section/rear of it's prey item? What other non-constrictive snakes over-strike their prey items and bite them in the middle/rear and what is it that is their main diet?

Once we learn what the prey item is that hognose are specially evolved for, then perhaps we'll learn why hognose do what they do.

Good topic!
-----
Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Hi Troy, Please do not take offense as you normally do. This subject is exactly why we do not agree. You without question come from a prejudiced angle, your experience with captive animals. And you did a great job, that's wonderfully put together and follows a line of logic. Congrats on that.

The problem is context, very plain and very simple context. These animals are not adapted for captivity. Captivity in this case is a restricted range of conditions that support reproduction growth and longevity. Conditions that are more about ease of application, then the animals actual needs. And Please, that does not mean you or anyone is bad. It means, we are human.

The problem is, assumptions, you made many assumptions that you base your theory on. The first problem is, you must have some idea of evolution of the species. And understand evolution(to a point) All hogs were suppose to have a common ancestor.(a scientific assumption) The animal that spread across much of the U.S. What was that? That hogs did spread means that there was suitable habitat, in whole or in a wave. At least enough to allow the animal to extend its range. Most likely that animal was not like anything we have now. As that occurred many thousands of years ago and the climate and habitat was different. With that in mind and only in mind. Hogs are now divided into several groups, species, semi species, etc. Which means something changed that forced them to adapt differently.

All this leads to prey type, with habitat changes, there is always prey changes, and within that, there are waves of prey type abundance. That is, during dry times, toads as an example are scarce, and lizards are abundant. During other types, toads and lizards are scarce and something else like rodents are abundant. birds and turtles and their eggs are also included. The key to understanding is, in order to survive, hogs must include a range of prey items, as they do change from year to year and local to local.

Preferred prey types is a very interesting subject. lets start with instinct, hognose when hatched, understand what is prey(food) and what is not. If they didn't the neonates would attempt to eat the water bowl, or lettuce or what ever, but they don't, they somehow know what to eat. there are certain keys that trigger that. So yes, hogs recognize, amphibs, lizards, birds, rodents, insects, turtles and turtle eggs, etc. Which means, somewhere in their genetic memory they ate those items to exist. In reality, didn't populations of the same species, can and do utilize different prey choices. Depending on whats available in abundance in that particular habitat. Are you following me, because now its going to get a bit sketchy.
Ethology is what keeps animals alive and living in a changing environment, and the environment is always changing. Either slowly or quickly. If you understand ethology and evolution, you will also understand that commonly adaption is always behind behavior and current conditions. Behavior attempts to keep up with changes, and is supported by adaption. Which means in this case, the fangs and venom at this time may indeed by remained. That is, no longer of current use in certain conditions. End pt2

Please do not take anything I say as fact, please do research and confirm it that way. Adaptions such as rear fangs, venom, etc may or many not be current. Behavioral adaptions such as swallowing head first, may or may not be current as well. Swallowing head first is a behavioral adaption based on prey that folds in a easy to swallow position. With animals that swallow large prey items whole as compared to head size, this is a very efficient adaption. But not totally necessary. They can and do swallow prey items willy nilly when those prey items are small. Hogs are very prejudiced, that is, they have real obvious characteristics. And we all can see them. They are not efficient at striking, in any way, they sort of push. There is no way on earth you can compare their ability to strike with almost all other snakes. So catching prey by striking is very doubtful. Crawling speed, again, its obvious they cannot outrun lizards, toads, etc. So obtaining prey by striking(many colubrids and crots) or with speed, whipsnakes, racers, even greensnakes and patchnose etc etc etc. Is simply not there. So what do they do. Their adaptions are without question proprietary. They seek and secure their prey, in the ground. They locate the prey and push the prey in their mouths. If you look at this, their headsize, giant mouth, all work in this manner, in the ground, you cannot work to find the head, so the snake just swallows, toads, eggs, lizards, mammals, etc, are swallowed with another adaption, a huge mouth and large rear teeth to push prey down(remember, adaptions are not restricted to one use) Without going on and on, end pt 3

In order to help understand this, there are many tests you can do that will not interfere with your breeding projects. They will teach you so much and well, its a great way to pass the time.

Set up a cage with a good sized box of soft silty sand, you know, what hogs normally live in. Allow the snake to use it. What will result if the sand is suitable is, your hogs will disappear. But that is not the test. Now, take a toad(hogs eat toads) and bury it in the sand. See if the hogs can find it. Then try a lizard, rodents eggs etc. You know the answer don't you? So that is really not a test, but this is, now try that with a cornsnake, kingsnake, ratsnake etc. Then test all over again by putting prey in burrows. Soon the results will paint a picture of what a hognose is and what it does. And how it can compete in a world with constant and varied competition. It will teach you why it swallows like it does. Simply put, your assumptions and comparisons were out of context with the animal.
prey type, all snakes have a range of prey type. They do not pick them for taste or color, they pick them to support their life. So, within that inherent range, they utilize what is common in their area and at that time. And yes, while they do consume rodents, both in captivity and in nature(more with western types) rodents, domestic mice, do not exist in any number, but many other types of rodents do, which include, kangaroo mice and rats. Grasshopper mice. etc. And like other prey items, hogs are not efficient at feeding on adults but are an efficient nest robber. And yes, all these rodents do nest in the ground, the domain of the hognose. Please do some research on these subjects. What you did was great for having very limited resources. Thanks and this is about learning and learning only. I am sure your a wonderful intelligent person.

I certainly agree with this here. My Eastern gets live toads that burrow. My western will get them occasionally too but I only just swapped him to sand so the toads use to just sort of sit there. Every single morning he starts moving around his cage looking for them whether they are there or not - as I do have to catch them. He will find them grab them in their burrows, after which he pulls them out and slowly retreats into his half-log to eat them.

I also agree that their ancestors would have eaten on eggs as at least easterns and westerns now do (no idea about southerns on this). The eggs would have to be deposited dry or damp seasons to insure species survival. So eggs would be a yearly or at minimal, bi-yearly source of food.

But they do certainly hunt best by pushing food into the ground after grabbing it - I will also note though that I have seen both my western and male eastern chase down a running toad before, as they are not all that quick to escape themselves.

Hello, one thing to consider, I believe your reporting captivity. which means, we don't always get it right. We have talked about this. In the case of sand, I mentioned make sure you have sand, that the hognose, any type, understands how to use. That is the start. ALso, a fresh caught toad or lizard is much of a test, as its lost and has no idea of its surroundings.
Just some ideas for a more accurate test. I think once you understand testing, you would have so much fun and learn so much, much much more then I mention here. About both the snakes and the prey. This is called naturalistic observation. In this case, its to set up in captivity specific tests in a controlled condition, that's similar to their natural conditions(as best you can) to observe specific behaviors.

Part of behavior is surviving, that is, doing what presents itself under odd conditions. So to feed on the surface of any cage is normal. Just think about what a wild toad would do on the surface. On my study site, I have seen a few toads bolt out of holes and move in a very motivated way, and at a speed and distance that no hog is going to catch them. Are your finals over? how did you do? best wishes

Yeah I messed up my wording haha.

In my male Easterns cage I put the toads in at night, while he is hiding under his log. Over night the toads work out their conditions and burrow and the male will spend the next day or two looking around until he finds it.

Where the toads would just "sit" is with my western while he was on aspen bark. They would try to burrow but just end up displacing some bark and not actually end up hiding. Now my western is on sand but that was just a few days ago and I likely won't have a toad to try out the behavior in his cage until the next warm rain. As far as my Eastern he is on true frogs until spring time.

And I have also observed the pinning behavior in the wild. From time to time while I am at work I will see an Eastern moving around rooting in the soil before its body makes a slight jerking movement and then "sits" for a bit. Sometimes, not always, it will pull back out and have a toad. The other times I managed to figure out that they just ate the toad in the hole because on one occasion, just one, I went to pick up the snake thinking that it didn't have a toad, and I found out quickly that it did haha.

So basically I have seen this behavior repeated in captivity, and seen it - 8-9 times, in the wild.

I want to add this, the problem in captivity is, the prey, toads, are also captive and cannot escape. In nature, when out, toads, have escape behaviors, and puff up when caught buried.

Hognose and all snakes for that manner, do what they can. Of course they will catch a toad on the surface if the toad cannot escape. Of course they utilize the methods of their design, but they are not totally confined by them. The point becomes, if hognose had to make their living hunting on the surface of the ground, they would indeed make a poor living. As they are in competition with other snakes far more mobile then they are. So they make their living in the ground, where they have the advantage of adaption. After all, they learn to take food from a predator(you)

Its good to think of snakes like this, they are like a college student, they have a major, and a minor, in their studies. THe minor is just incase the major FAILS. Snakes are like this as well. There is always a backup plan, And they are always attempting to expand their abilities(that's ethology)

Yeah I am agreeing with you haha. I think there is a communication error so I will focus just on one point instead of two - My western hognose in regards to hunting toads.

I am sure that the toads will burrow and he will after them once I add toads into his cage now that I have him on a soil type that will hold the shape of the burrow. Previously, until this past Friday, I have been using aspen bark for four years. The toads would attempt to burrow, but they could not because the aspen I was using wouldn't hold the shape of their burrow. As a result, they would make a depression in the ground instead of a burrow and "appear" to be sitting there.

About a year ago I tried breeding toads to raise tadpoles so that I didn't have to catch wild ones. The idea didn't work because I didn't have the available time, so I just resorted to raising collected tadpoles. During this time I noticed the burrowing habits of Southern Toads and the manner in which the developed burrows. When I looked at this method for digging burrows in a more toad-suited substrate, the method for digging was the same in aspen as it was damp eco-earth mixes with sand from outside.

Basically my thing with my western attacking toads on the surface is because the toads did not have a substrate that they could properly burrow in. As a result, the toads couldn't burrow. As a result, my western would eat them on the surface. Now that I have a substrate better suited to generalized burrowing be it snake, mouse, or toad, I am 99.99% positive that the snake will seek out toads that are burrowed into the ground as you have been saying. The new field collected sand that I am using now should allow the toads to burrow and the snakes to follow.

Mine takes them from both the side, head, and rear. He smells it, picks a spot, and hits it. I feed him the same way and time every week and it is different from mouse to mouse every week. I do find it cool though that when mine can't work his mouth to the head, he just powers through and will fold the mouse and eat the entire food item sideways.

I am not sure the prey type matters. Hogs in the open are not so good at striking. They corner their pray in burrows or crevices (eggs don't need to be cornered). When prey can not see an escape it usually just cower thus becoming hog food.

Yeah I know, I feed him Eastern Fence Lizards every now and then and he is the same with them, I specified mice prior to this because that is his staple diet - they are the easiest to get haha.