Reptile & Amphibian Forums

When breeding an anaconda male (100% het albino ) to an albino or 100% het albino female, are all the " normals " 100% het for albino?

The World of Hognose list shows percentage of hatchlings resulting from these matchups only. Does a 25% result mean it's 25% het for albino or whatever?

Thanks, Mike

If you breed the male conda het albino to a female het albino you will get

albino condas
condas 66% poss het for albino
albinos
and normals 66% poss het for albino

If you bred him to a female visual albino you would produce
albino condas
condas 100% het for albino
albinos
and 100% guaranteed hets.

You would also have the benefit of producing roughly half the clutch as albinos too rather than with a het to het breeding you will get roughly 25% of the clutch as albinos. I personally would breed him to a female albino, it will make your babies worth more money as well as the entire clutch and you are utilizing the full potential of your male that way. Good luck and hope this helps
Will

Thanks for the help. My two females are over 250 grams. May as well breed both in hope of getting more albino condas. Have a albino conda female at 150, so supers will have to wait a while longer.
Have a male hypo breeder, but according to WOH will only get 2 varieties of het normals.

Mike

Sounds like you have a good little group. If your females are up to size I say go for it. There is nothing like producing your own little hoggies, even if they are just nice normals. You could pair that hypo male up with one of your females, and you are correct you will get visual normals (wild type) that are double het for albino and hypo. The hybinos are pretty sweet, so that might be a worth while project for you depending on the direction you want to go, and of coarse what you like. You should post some pics of your guys let us check them out.

Also females can be bred at the 150 gram mark. There is a thread detailing breeding smaller females from over this past summer (I think Gregg posted it), but I would not recommend it. Smaller females can quickly become egg bound, and its best to hold off on that til you have some years of colubrid breeding under your belt. They grow so darn fast though, if you are going to breed the at 150 grams you might as well wait til they are 250 because you can get them there in a few months at that point. Anyway good luck
Will

Hey Will, can you explain how a female at 150 grams is more likely to become egg bound than a female at 250 grams? I am not looking for speculation or an opinion based on nothing more than you heard it was safer to breed females at 250 grams.

Any snake that isnt fully mature runs a higher risk for becoming egg bound. I wouldnt consider a 150 gram female fully mature, would you? A 250 gram female regardless of the age would be significantly more developed than a 150 gram female. Like I said you can breed them at 150 grams, as you have proven, but you are also experienced in breeding colubrids. If one of your females became egg bound, you would be more likely to know how to handle it and treat it accordingly. Someone with not much experience might breed their snake at 150 grams, it becomes egg bound and then they dont know what to do. The snake suffers in the end because they wanted eggs/babies now rather than later I personally have never had an issue breeding hoggies under 200 grams (but I also havent done it much) but that isnt to say it is safer for the average individual to wait til they are of better size.

With your reply it seems like you are looking for an argument? I hope that is because your intentions are becoming misconstrued over text, and simply not because you are looking for a fight. Like I said, I know it can be done, and I know Im ok with it in my collection, but I am also confident in my abilities as a herpetologist. What basis do you have that they are not more likely to become egg bound? Just because a few females have done it, doesnt mean it is any less of a risk with an underdeveloped girl.
Will

Will,
I do agree that unless you are experienced with breeding, you should not breed a female hog at 150 grams. However, it has nothing at all to do with becoming egg bound. The fact is, a 150 gram female does not run any more risk of becoming egg bound than a female at 250 grams. And a female at 250 grams is not any less likely to become egg bound than a 150 gram female. Egg binding has nothing to do with the size or actual weight of the female. If a snake is able to ovulate and become gravid, she is mature and more than capable of safely reproducing at pretty much any size. So, to answer your question, yes, I would consider a 150 gram female fully mature if she is sexually mature. In nature, sexual maturity is full maturity. And that is when animals start to reproduce. They do not wait until they are what "we" think is a safe weight.

My one and only concern with breeding small females like that is their post lay recovery. An experienced breeder will have no issues bringing a small female back up to a good weight and body mass. An inexperienced breeder may have some problems.

The biggest things that lead to egg binding are dehydration and improper nesting options. Improper nesting options would be the biggest problem of the two. There is not one single bit of literature or study done that says a smaller size female is more likely to become egg bound.

I do not mean to sound argumentative, but it does bother me a bit to see statements being produced as fact when they have no merit.

So now back to my question. Why do you think egg binding has anything to do with the actual size of the snake?

I'll give you a detailed response tomorrow when I'm not trying to type on this stupid Android. My fingers are fatter than it likes lol.
Will

Very well said Gregg.

Either she's capable of reproducing or she isn't. I agree that egg binding is a direct result of poor husbandry, more specifically poor nesting options and dehydration. That goes for all snakes, from pythons to kings to hogs. Keep her in a glass tank with a screen top and offer a clear tupperware tub for nesting and your chances of egg binding go up significantly. Limit air exchange, offer a dark, humid place that offers security at the time of breeding and the threat of eb goes way down. This goes for young, small females as well, but the older girls tend to suffer from eb more than young ones.

Will

Ok, so than we completely agree and me questioning what you were saying was not required. I just took what you were saying differently than you were saying. I can see things wrong sometimes I guess. LOL. Thanks for your reply Will.

I look at things from an "in the wild" point of view. Females will breed as soon as they are sexually mature in the wild. There is no waiting to become 250 grams. The difference is, their natural environment provides the support for these snakes to be successful at smaller sizes and most keepers offer the very bare minimum so it is not a good idea for those keepers to attempt to breed at those smaller sizes. In my opinion, those keepers should not be breeding them at any size because bare minimum husbandry can cause problems in large females as well.

Hey Man,

Different Will. I agree with you (Will Still). I don't know how the original Will (Will W) in the thread feels. Your post was spot on regardless. Thanks.

Will Still

Read all the responses and was curious about the good husbandry factor?
My adults, yearlings kept on aspen with bark hide area, fresh water, and a bowl with damp spagnum moss to help with sheds (they rarely use this box). The tubs are ARS medium size and smaller ones for hatchlings. Bottom heating in the back at 87, but it's turned off mid dec. to feb. so it's in the high 60's now. Is this setup considered good or improvement needed?
I bred normal westerns in the early 80's and had several EB females. Just got back to hogs 2 years ago.

Mike

A couple of things with this.

It depends on what your looking for. what you described is Basic bottom line survival husbandry. And yes a hog can live it it. What you mentioned, does not cover the concern of this thread. Nesting.

Your description meets minimal requirements, but nothing specific about hognose and their unique behaviors, and hognose have lots and lots of unique behaviors(goofy little creatures) Also, your setup is no fun. If you like to have fun, you can move on from there, or not if you do not require fun. Learning is also fun.

The question with a certain weight for females is being questioned. And that is what we are talking about with good(to support) husbandry. Hogs as with most reptiles, have particular methods of nesting. When met, reproduction is simple easy and does not impact the health of the female. Its what they do on a normal basis, its not suppose to be life threatening. Poor nesting is life threatening. In this case, to smaller females.

Hogs appear to be one of the easiest to nest. As they nest in the sandy areas then live in. They nest in holes they make and are from my expeience here, fairly shallow, 8 to 10" deep(in nature) When allowed to nest in what they normally nest in, they can lay their eggs within a day to a few days of shedding, which allows them to not become dehydrated and not become thin and lose weight. With none suitable nesting, they hold the eggs as long as possible then drop them(scatter them) in an effort to survive. When nesting is good, their is a design and method of nesting that's repeatable. In short, them make chambers in a sandy substrate, they deposit the eggs in a tight organized fashion, leave an air space around the eggs and cover the burrows that lead to the chamber. They may even move and arrange eggs with their heads. So what your doing is good, but not exactly what we are talking about. Best wishes

Hey Gregg
Sorry for the late reply, Ive been on the road dealing with work. Anyway yes I agree with you for the most part. Egg binding in captivity is usually caused by improper husbandry. But that encompasses many things, temps, diet, stress, improper nesting sites etc. I dont know if you are familiar with indigo's, but they are one of the most common snakes in captivity to suffer from egg binding (I have several huge females that the previous owners said suffered from egg binding in the past). In the wild their main staple is other snakes. I include snakes in all my drymarchon diets and have never had an issue with it. Usually with them it is caused by lack of a varied diet, and there is evidence to support that.
In all colubrids (hogs included) though size does play a factor. I think for the most part the 150 gram-250gram thing is what some hobbyists in the past came up with, and since they were successful I believe we stuck to that as dogma. I dont believe in a set size for breeding, but with my experience I can usually tell when a female is ready to breed (as Im sure you can as well), but that comes from experience. I think we have stuck to the 250 gram mark for new hobbyists because they dont have that same ability.
I believe for the most part you are correct. When you breed a small female, it is everything after egg laying that matters as far as getting the female back up to a healthy weight, and making sure she is well hydrated. If you say this to a new hobbyist though, I feel as if it gives them the wrong impression and usually think we condone them to do the same thing as advanced hobbyists with minimal risk. I do not consider a 150 gram female to be fully developed. She might have everything needed to breed, but that doesnt necessarily mean her body is ready. Its like the 12 year old girl that has her period, and then is able to get pregnant. Just because she has the proper tools, doesnt mean her body is truly ready to have a

a child without repercussions. Again, just because she can doesnt mean she should. Everything on Earth is able to breed at a much younger age than what is best for them. This is because in the instance that the species as a whole is threatened, there are some girls out there that will be able to successfully produce a clutch even in the hostile conditions. The ones that get egg bound end up dying, and the ones that dont help ensure the survival of the species.
Like I said the 150 gram mark isnt necessarily what I am talking about. I am more talking about under developed ladies. I do not for the most part consider a 150 gram female fully mature though (some are but that is for the advanced hobbyist, one with lots of breeding experience, not just advanced because they have kept snakes for years), and that is why I do not even go there with new hobbyists. Like I said, I do not want them to get the wrong impression. Anyway good talk. This forum needs some life breathed in it.
Will Wohlers

Your missing whats important. Instead of learning what supports them successfully, you want to prevent what they do naturally. What supports a small female, supports larger females. Instead, you want to practice what only supports larger females(more mass).

Education is to learn, husbandry is to support, in our case what they naturally do.

Your also neglecting phenotypic pressure. (selection factor) These animals have had thousands of years of perfecting the size they reproduce at. If it didn't work, they would not have the ability to do it, as those genes would have been selected against.
Nature is saying(by doing it) the 150grm. females are adults. You are being anthropromorphic and thinking of them as children. Nature does not play that game. They are sexually mature, or they are not. Its that simple.
I think its better to understand husbandry that works for all sizes of females. Cheers

And the record keep on playing that same old song that no one wants to hear. You talk in circles dude. You act like Im not educated, or as if you are more educated than the rest of us. I am a scientist so I understand exactly what me and Gregg are talking about. Its pretty obvious you do not, and congrats for derailing yet another post. You are starting to sound like the old uncle at the party that no one wants around because they have a bit to much to drink start getting naked, touch all the women, and talk loud and in circles about stuff they dont understand. I use to respect you Frank for what you brought to the Varanid community but this forum has quickly shown me that anyone could have done what you did. You just happened to be one of the first and hit some dumb luck. Instead of copying and pasting your same ideas into every message you post, why not try and be an asset to this forum? Half of what you say here is literally garbage, the other half of what you say is so riddled with syntax errors and misspellings that your posts are painful to try and read. I hear you take the stick out of your butt when you are on the facebook groups, so why act like you do here? Is kingsnake your playground after you have had to much to drink Uncle? Well time to put your clothes back on. No one responds to your posts on here anymore, do you see the pattern? This will be the last message I reply to of yours, and certainly the last I will waste my time trying to read. Can I get an AMEN
Will

No offense, but your full of crap. Best wishes

And heres why,
1. Gregg and I agree, did you miss that?
2. your a scientist, hmmmmm then why not use science or logical thinking in your argument/discussion? Your being anthropromorphic, which in case you did not learn what that is in your science. Its applying human values to animals.(in this case)
3. This is a discussion board, its a place where folks "discuss" husbandry, the keeping and breeding of hognose. In that, we are suppose to "discuss" what we agree with and not agree with. If there are opposing views or experience, we are then suppose to support our views with evidence, experience, observations, and results etc. Not attack the other person. Attacking the other person, is normally done because you the attacker, have no valid support or argument. So you attack. Which is weak and a default of your argument. Its literally to give up.
4. Win, lose or draw, no one is forced to learn, believe, apply, anything said here. All and all, and sadly(for the animals) you/keepers are allowed to do what ever you want. The best results that could possibly occur from forum debates are, some one learns something that helps them with their captive hognose.
So please, support your statements and stop with the horseshat.

You have an "amen!" from over here will. I quit reading his post months ago. It is much more pleasant to just skip over them

On the brighter side, I have enjoyed this thread. Thanks to all for sharing, especially Gregg and Will.

Maybe KS should offer forums(hognose) for kids, as this thing you are doing is child like and not all that smart.
In a nutshell, that you would ignore information that "could" help your captives, Is all about you, not me.
When working with animals in the field. Our task is to learn about the animal. In that, how we do that is to ask questions. In most cases, we do not understand the answers we get, so our task is to ask better questions. Then even better questions. Until we get an understanding.

The key to field work is not what you know, or think you know, the key is to ask important questions. the animals know

On this forum, if you do not understand what I am saying, and in most cases, newbies should NOT understand what I am saying, your task is to ask better questions. Now if you step back and look at this, if I say something and you question it, and I ask you something, and you respond, then I respond to that, WE HAVE A DISCUSSION, which is exactly what a discussion board is for. The reality, no one said, what I say is right, or what you say is right. What we have is discussion. If we can apply whats said, and that results in something GOOD, then that's right. So to determine right or wrong in a captive forum, it must be applied successfully.
What goes on in between that is only discussion. So I ask, what are you afraid of that you cannot even partake in discussion? To make this my normal circle, at the top, do you want me to what, treat you like children and pat you on the back and tell you how good you are???????? Yea, I am a creep, I will leave that to your parents or girlfriend or someone else.

Why are you jumping all over these people? Seriously Frank, are you that egotistical and dense that you still can't comprehend that you are the common denominator that people don't like around here? Almost everybody here has a problem with you and most have been quite vocal about at one point in time or another simply because of your condescending, arrogant and ignorant way of addressing issues and people.

Why don't you grow up for a change and try being less caustic and condescending towards others if that is at all humanly possible for you. And seriously, you aren't as smart as you think you are regardless of what your swollen ego keeps telling you. But knowing you, you'll just ignore the reality of the situation and go off half-cocked and ramble on some ignorant thing or another that most of us will either ignore or get a huge laugh out of just like you have with your last 2 responses to these fine people. And yes Frank, there's a lot of us that enjoy laughing at you; you're like a cheap character on a badly written sitcom that everybody loves to hate.

So please, prove me wrong. Show me that you can actually accept responsibility and humbly apologize to these people for your outrageous outbursts, if you have the strength of character to do so, but I seriously doubt that you do. I dare you, prove me wrong!!!
-----
Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Well Troy, you prove my point over and over, To you its about You and people, and it must have been that way for a long while, As the first question I asked here was, IS THIS PLACE DEAD, as no one posted here. I then asked why, and you told me its because of all the bad guys. And you were nice to me, until I did not have the same approach as you.
Do I have the same approach as most here, NO I don't, but I do not call you folks names. No sir, I don't. Do I indicate that some know very little about snakes, yes. Most of you only know snakes in sweater boxes. And not much about that. But are experts in genetics, which again is great considering what you do.
I never talk about you personally, why you ask, because I could care less whether you a nice guy or and Arsehole. It has nothing to do with hognose, snakes or what I could learn here. Or what you could learn. So Troy, after you lash out like you just did, all I can say is, man are you insecure. And I believe in many many ways, not just your knowledge of hognose.
Are we different, yes, I am a reptile guy, I love reptiles, in nature first, and in captivity second, and to me they are both the same. Morphs, are great, anything to heip the keeper take good care of their animals. All you seem to care about is your knowledge of genetics. I guess it something you can be good at, considering all your shortcomings. So yes, we are different.

All you have to do is look in your herp room, and then consider where and how those animals live, The two are polar opposites. I offer ways to help your animals, You do not HAVE to agree or do anything. Yet, you fight me. You really should ask yourself, why do you fight me? If I am so wrong, that would put me in with 99% of the public. And I hope you don't treat them like you treat me.
Anyway, I am not a child like you guys, I will keep posting and I could care less if you like it or not. Or if you like me or not. Hey, I have lots of friends already and I cherish them.

Also Troy, If I or anyone says something about genetics, you jump in their shat and quickly correct them and harshly I may add. So what do you expect me to do, when it comes to normal natural snake behavior such as nesting? Well, I got used to that, so you can get use to me. hahahahahahahahahahahaha
In the end, I can goggle up all the genetics needed to work with hogs, but you cannot go look at them in nature, like I can and do. The snakes that interest me are hognose, the ones that make a living naturally, and it doesn't matter what coat(morph) you put on them. Lastly, I hope to see you someday at some herp show. That would be eye opening. My bet is, you would not call me names.

Hi Will, it appears to me that your thoughts are academic, that is, they have reason, but I have to ask what that reason is.
It appears you do not have an understanding of biology of snake reproduction. In order to reproduce, a female must have her ovaries enlarge, develop ovum, have that ovum drop out of the ovaries(to cycle) emit pheromones to attract a male, then copulate, have the ovum migrate into the oviducts(egg shell gland) and become fertilized. Most of that is done before a male becomes involved.
In Short, the female must be reproductively ready in order for copulation to have any effect.

Next is that making money thing, buy breeding them young, Well that's silly, In reality, when females reproduce at a small size, both in nature and in captivity, they produce fewer, normally smaller eggs. So actual greedy keepers are better off keeping them growing as fast as they can, so they produce more eggs and even multiclutch. But then that is also natural to the animals.
As Gregg mentioned, egg binding is due to poor husbandry. So I ask, instead of making the statement that people should not breed them young and small, wouldn't it be better to learn to support healthy egg deposition of all sized females and that is done with decent nesting. Wouldn't it be better to support what the animal does naturally. Then some attempt at manipulation. Best wishes

I understand reproductive biology just fine, its you that needs some assistance. You are looking at it from purely an academic one dimentional perspective. Nothing is ever black and white and you spout out information like it is.

Have you ever gone back and read your posts in bulk? You are starting to sound like a broken record responding with the same generic statements (you have about 3 of them) to every single thing you comment on. Its time to update your books and get some new material. All the best
Will

Your right, when I got into hogs, the first thing I did was get some books, talk to people etc. What I discovered was, there was a huge neglect with nesting. And I have been consistent with that. Last year, I helped to keepers here receive better results.

People showed nestings that were not actual nestings, they were abortions, that is, the females throwing out eggs in order to survive the ordeal. When in all reality, laying eggs is normal and none stressful and does not cause extreme weight lose or stress.

So if I am a Arse for attempting to help YOU see that it may be a better approach to actually learn to do something that's EASY to do, that only allows young females to not become egg bound, but also help all size females to endure less stress and also not become egg bound.

And yes, that is something I will keep on saying as long as there are folks like you that let their egos get in the way, instead of learning a tiny little bit about the snakes you put in cages, How about learning how to prevent the problem, not bandage it.

If you had knowledge of their reproductive processes, you would have said, If your going to a have females under 200 grams reproduce, please be sure to support good nesting and hydration.

Also last year, two keepers, one extremely successful and knowledgeable, attempted the style of nesting I am promoting, and both saw improvement and observed interesting behaviors they had not seen. ON THEIR FIRST ATTEMPTS. And those attempts were minimal. But plenty good to observe positive results. So why didn't you mention that? ALso this forum is a husbandry forum, that means to husband or support. To support what these animals naturally do, not prevent it for fear of failure. Particularly when its easy to do.
Lastly, your response was sad and normal, instead of discussing the subject, or questioning the hows and whys, you attack the keeper attempting to help. Basically speaking, that means you have not actual retort.

Sorry for not editing my reply,