Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last week while at a breeder's house about an hour away, I saw a snake I really liked. It wasn't one of their offspring.
The said they bought it as a corn snake, then when it arrived they "figured out" it was a hypo black rat snake.
It seemed very docile, looked like it was healthy, at least from outward appearances anyway. I'm wondering what it really is though before I try to buy him. They want 80 dollars for him.
He's about 4 long if I had to guess. I've only got one picture but I've asked them to send me more.
I have idea how old it is, I'd hate to find out its a really super old power fed corn snake.
What would you guys say it is

they just sent me this pic if it helps at all

sorry about the picture issue
here they are

I see some black ratsnake influence. It appears to be some sort of integrate or hybrid. I also see some cornsake influence. I would say it is the non albino form of what the pet trade refers to as a bubblegum ratsnake. These snakes where originally produced by Bill and Kathy Love, they are a generic color morph made by crossing a black rat X corn X everlades ratsnake.

When hybrids come into play, ratsnakes are notorious for it. Although these animals are often beautifully, they are widely considered abominations!

Another

Lots of good looking snakes there.
I guess I'm getting better, I THOUGHT I saw some corn snake in it

Licorice rats were started by George Miskimmons..
he bred them to stuff...other black rats...and made Sunrise and Sunsets...amel rats that were yellows oranges and reds....I forget what all....I think they are all black rats....not yellow nor everglades....he has one called "copperhead"...it's head it ...copper...yes....anyways...through these he made all kinds of stuff...and along with rusty rats...he throws chocolates as I call them...dark chocolates and light chocolates....I had a male light one that got 6 foot real quick and was a beast....(he went to Sunbry Pa with Nancy and Jay Witmer) .....

so...it's a brown black ratsnake with licorice and rusty history ...etc etc....

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........JY

You might be right. I miss seeing morphs like those.

I wish I never cleared out my collection.

I haven't seen these in a while

oooh I like that one. lots of great looking snakes that i'm not allowed to have where I live

soon no one will be "allowed " to own anything where they live...

or have affordable insurance....full time employment ... retirement accounts or half the animal species on earth still existing....etc etc

......what state???
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........JY

Ohio unfortunately

you think you "cleared out"

I have one 55 gal tank setting outside I just bought used from craig'slist.....no critters, no racks ...no nuttin....

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........JY

middle ,lighter is cool...? would they be Sunrise and Sunsets???

I actually never owned those....just the light brown ones and licorice.....((along with amel red phases and pure white black rats)
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........JY

Yes they where. The bright one was an t-positive albino rusty, bright one was a sunrise, and the dark a sunset. As I said those snake are gone now after a long battle with Crypto! BTW the most terrible thing any herper could ever encounter.

been there done that.....I think...coccydiosis was the lab result along with other stuff.....lots died...all I know...lots of pills and shots ....not cool with 250 plus critters to treat at once....

(spell check on coccydiosis)??been awhile
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........JY

I am SO sorry for your loss. That is absolutely awful

..Nancy and Jack ,Witmer.....my brain said J and wrote Jay..

sorry Jack.........

how you guys been?...cold enough up there in the "hills"....

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........JY

I was reading that black rat snakes have keeled scales. I noticed this snake did not. Does that mean anything or is that just a trait that could have been lost through breeding with the corn and everglades?

North American ratsnakes do not have keeled scales.

Black Rats do

Wow! I feel like a dumb #!//@$$. You are correct. They do have slightly keeled scales. I guess when I think of keeled scales, I picture a garter snake, rough greensnake, watersnake, or a Ribbon snake. I honestly after over 20 years of studying, keeping, breeding, finding and photographing, this species I am astonished by my own ignorance. I sincerely apologize for my own stupidity! I know I'm gonna get razzed for this one.

You aren't going to get razzed by me. I still appreciate your opinion and advice.

I don't know what we are going to do. I REALLY like the snake, I spent a LOT of time handling it last night. My daughter loves it and even though my wife didn't pay much attention to it when she was at the breeder last week, the more she looks at the picture, the more she likes it. So, it would be a great addition to the family.
However, the biggest thing is not knowing if I'd be bringing home something illegal.
The other problem I have is they know NOTHING about it.
They say they looked on line and determined that he's worth at least 100 dollars and the least will take is 80.
BUT, they don't know what kind of snake it is, so how they can look online and figure out what it's worth, I don't know.
They don't know how old the snake is, whether its been bred, and if so how many times. Just seems like a lot of money for all the unknowns.
If I knew what it was, and if it isn't really old and at the end of its life, and hasn't been powerfed or overbred, then 80 dollars for a snake that size (especially around here) is a great price. There are only two corn snake breeders I know of within 50 miles, normals go for 15 bucks, in pet shops a normal hatchling will run you 50, a nice adult normal corn will run you 75 or more on craigslist. So , like I said, 80 would be great if all the IF's were positive ones.

If you are that unsure, I would contact someone from a local herpetological society who might have more knowledge about these things. It couldn't hurt to ask. You are obviously not trying to do anything criminal.

that would be a great idea, except that we don't have a local herp society, loL

I would call any herp society from your home state local. Maybe Cleveland has one. Kingmaker and herp.com both have listings.

Kingsnake.com and herpo.com both have listings.

thanks again Amer,
I have decided to pass on this snake. The more I think about it, the more I think I should just go ahead get a propagators permit. It's only 25 dollars and would let me get whatever I want as long as I supply the proper documentation of its acquisition as well as complete records of all my other herps. Since they can't provide that with the snake, if I get it, even if it is legal to own, I would never be able to get a propagators license. Add that to the other "if's" I listed above, it makes it far from a bargain.

As a bonus, I can put the money back in hopes of getting a russian from Tim this spring/summer

Good call!

Feds and locl fish and wildlife people could not and would not know what it was without a DNA test...

BUT...they could and would ASSUME it was a black rat and bust your butt....IF they are illegal in your state...even in morph forms....

???
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........JY

Kind of the guilty until proven innocent theory. If the government wants to make an example of someone, they will definitely do so.

I don't think they do either....

......feel smooth to me......moreso than not...

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........JY

Definitely smooth, but extremely close examination reveals the hint of a keel. I GUESS!