Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What's the general consciences on feeding Hognose with bait fish? (or any snake for that matter) Anyone out there doing this? If so what type are you using? I've seen several videos of people feeding fish to reluctant feeders.

I've heard that many bait fish are riddled with parasites, so I'm just curious as to anyone actually using fish for food....not so much as a primary food source.....but as a supplemental food item.

If bait fish is not a good option, what about Sardines in fresh spring water? Anyone tried this?

If you don't want to post publicly, just email me....would really like to get some opinions on this....here lately not much activity so I'll try a couple different places.

Zombies need not respond, you will be ignored as always!

I see no reason to feed hognose snakes fish at all. What would you be supplementing by adding fish to their diet? There is nothing in fish that would be beneficial to them that they are not getting from a diet of rodents. Fish are an empty food compared to what they could be getting. Obviously, my answer is to not feed your hognose bait fish or any other fish for that matter.

Well with some neonates it seems they are a bit reluctant to feed normally. But they take to fish better than rodents. It's not something that would be used on a regular basics. So using them as a supplement until regular feeding can be accomplished seems to me to be beneficial.

Fish are high in Protein, low in Fat, fish are also rich in calcium, phosphorus, vitamin D, vitamin B2, iron, zinc, iodine, magnesium and potassium. Calcium, and phosphorus.

My main concern is with what types of parasites might be in the feeder fish if any. Not really knowing about parasites that are common to fish, I'm just wondering if anyone reading this has experience with this?

A diverse diet might be a way to turn around a poor feeder. Not all have strong feeding responses and need a bit of help in the beginning.

I dont see any issue with it for trying to get reluctant babies to start eating regularly. Tuna is regularly used to get the pickiest of babies to eat. Hell any food is better than no food. With parasites they are usually species specific, so the chances of transmission are extremely low, but there is always a chance they are carrying something that can be transmitted. To reduce the risk, I would advise against feeding the bait fish live. I would freeze them for at least 30 days to make sure all parasites are killed. This is how I feed all my captive bred indigos, and cribos, dead on road snakes without the worry of disease/parasite transmission.

We wouldnt be where we are in the hobby today without people pushing the envelope and trying new tactics. I would never advise against trying something new as long as you minimize the potential risks to your animals.
Will

will beat me to the punch! lol i have known people to feed feeder fish to various drymarchon, water snakes, and garter snakes in order to get picky hatchlings to start feeding. personally, i would not like to clean cages behind a room full of hogs that have been fed fish :-p would probably still be better than drymarchon poo though. lol

about the parasites, i'm not sure there. i read a care sheet article by a garter snake breeder that recommended against feeder fish just because of that reason. you might poke around on those forums. bet they would have some good info to share

jonathan

I don't see a reason to ever use fish as a source of food or scent for hogs. From my experience with literally hundreds of hatchling hogs I produced over the last 5 seasons, I have never had to resort to using fish to feed or scent. And when I do scent {tree frog} it only goes on for 2 or 3 feedings and they are on to unscented. In my opinion, fish has no use when it comes to hognose snakes.

I don't see a reason to ever use fish as a source of food or scent for hogs. From my experience with literally hundreds of hatchling hogs I produced over the last 5 seasons, I have never had to resort to using fish to feed or scent. And when I do scent {tree frog} it only goes on for 2 or 3 feedings and they are on to unscented. In my opinion, fish has no use when it comes to hognose snakes.

And yet I've found a reason to use fish as a scenting method, because I don't have easy access to tree frogs or anything else frog or toad related.

My only problem with what most people use in regards to scenting is the canned stuff which is usually loaded with preservatives and oils and many other things that are not good for us humans and therefore cannot be all that good for the snakes either. This is why I use fresh salmon as a means of scenting and it's worked when all else has failed trying with various pinky methods. All I do is take a very thin sliver of fresh salmon and put it on top of the pinky and usually they attack it.

The key here is to not let our own personal opinions/biases get in the way of what works when all else fails. It doesn't matter if you, Gregg, don't use fish as a means to get your stubborn snakes eating; what does matter is that this method does in fact work for a lot of people, including myself. And instead of arguing about the merits of whether to use this method or not based on our own preferences/prejudices, we should instead try to understand why it works. Then perhaps we can have a better understanding of triggering eating responses in hognose, especially the stubborn ones!

And BTW, I had to use fresh salmon scented pinkies for one of my Pink Anacondas when all else failed. His brother took to f/t pinkies right away but this bugger, he refused everything until that magic moment when I offered him a salmon scented pinky, he went nuts. It took about 8 scented feedings until I was able to ween him off of it and onto unscented.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

np
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Genesis 1:1

THeres something the matter with us as people, which is what gets in the way. posts and replys are related to in odd ways. I have mentioned many times, many folks use the A or Z method.

In this case, Gregg and I, are mentioning, with A level of husbandry, picky feeders is greatly reduced. Which is true. But that does not mean Gregg or I would watch a hog or any other reptile waste away, because we refuse to do something we do not normally need to do. If I was forced to, I would scent with anything that works. Starting with what is most available to me.

Again, I am sure Gregg would do whatever is needed. That said, people having problems, should entertain the idea, or goal, that scenting is not needed if you support the snake. This should be the first step in improving your husbandry.

Fear based husbandry is something that I question. If I had to keep reptiles in the fear that they will get sick or fail for any tiny reason, I would not keep them. In nature, they consume parasites with EVERY meal, they occur in oil fields, commonly, they were one of the types of animals that did not die off in radiation tests in Nev. They occur and have evolved to the nastiest of deserts. As long as there is some manner of heat, They will colonize it.
The key to learning husbandry is simple, one decision needs to be made, and that is, is the animal in question, sick(pathogens) or healthy. If its healthy, then there is no need to treat it like a sick animal. Healthy reptiles are nearly impossible to kill. Which is a good thing, that makes testing easy. You don't measure success by life or death. You measure it by progress.
end part 1

You can test anything you want, if it increases the progress, then its good, if it decreases the results, then its not so good. Its easy and fun. But you cannot live in fear. You must have confidence in two things, ONE the animal, and two, in yourself. Basic husbandry is KNOWN, so no one should have to reinvent the wheel. But, there are better wheels. The area between basic care and allowing animals to reach their genetic potential, is huge. My own interests is that, their potential. So that is what I commonly look(test) for.
Results are the key, as you folks ARE keeping animals, results are seen daily, you can't avoid it. If you do something and it increases your results, keep doing it. Its pretty much that simple.
Getting caught up in things that are not important is what holds all of us back. Like chemicals in tuna juice. That is a needless concern. For darn sakes, you only scented a pinky, you don't pour it down their throats(do you?) If tuna works, great, if salmon works, great. Hmmmmmm earthworms, lizards, toads, baby birds, yolk, etc all work too.
But as Gregg states, mice work the best, that is, it results in superior results. But that does not mean, you cannot have fun. The sooner you get them taking pinks/rodents, the better change your animal has of achieving superior results. If that's what your interested in. So Austin, test fish, I would love to see your results, Will, prove out some new husbandry methods, I would love to see what you come up with.
All in all, I am with Gregg on this one, first establish husbandry where these temporary fixes are not required, then have a ball testing anything you like, healthy hogs will not fail easily, you would pretty much have to beat them to death.

troy,

thanks for sharing! i might just try the fresh salmon trick, if i have the need this season. i have a couple girls that will hopefully breed! excited to possibly produce a few hogs of my own i downsized my collection and am down to just my dozen hogs for snakes. they are awesome though!

it does seem to be a much better idea to use fresh fish then canned with all the preservatives. i have had numerous guys tell me canned tuna, salmon, or spam juice. never understood why canned, but evidently is works in some cases. in the wild, i don't see why they wouldn't eat a small fish if given the chance. i have found a southern chowing down on a frog on the side of a pond. why not a fish if it could grab it? i think it's pretty narrow minded to not even entertain the idea.

i live in florida, so i have a year round supply or fresh frogs and lizards. i still like to hear about the other things that have worked successfully for others though. personally, i am a little nervous about using wild frog and lizard scent because of possible parasites.

thanks for sharing... great topic!

jonathan

hogs will indeed eat fish(tested it) When I first heard of tuna scenting, I thought that was funny, but it works. I don't have a need to use it. I have toads and lizards if needed, both are natural dietary items for our hogs. But it surely will not hurt to scent with tuna juice. To state that it may, is purely theoretical and arguementative. As there has never been any evidence that it is harmful, in any way. If you like salmon, great.
As stated by several large scale hog breeders, its actually rare to have to scent rodents. I work with both westerns and kennerlyi and its rare with kennerlyi as well.

I have to ask, is there any physical or behavioral adaptions that indicate hognose of any kind, can catch fish. Has anyone seen one or more, attempt to catch fish? Or do they simply feed on dead fish if they cross paths. Again, As anyone observed hogs hunting in water, or the waters edge?
In my aprox 200 field observations, I found one hog that had algae on its back that indicated it went in the water, and tracked one into shallow water and it crawled about 30' in shallow water, then went back to land away from water. In my experience, its common to find hogs hunting in higher sandy areas near or away from water.

But then Gregg, you have established husbandry that supports that type of feeding.
Also I think the question is theoretical. That is some folks are thinking they can come up with a solution to a theoretical problem that has already been solved. One poster stated, in the pursuit of better husbandry.
The answer is simple, they should do it and come back after they have tested it. That is, they should see if it works for themselves. I am a strong believer in testing.
Last summer I offered some feeder fish to neonates. as well as earthworms, and lizards and toads. They ate them all, but I feed mice, the snake grow much better when fed mice.