Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Guys
Wondering if any of you have ever dealt with this before. One of my female hogs laid 3 infertile eggs 4 days after coming out of brumation. I brumated her in a climate controlled room, and the room never went above 55 degrees. It averaged around 47 degrees the entire winter. So I know she didnt develop the eggs during her cool down. She is a virgin, never been with a male, and is now around 300 grams. She went into a shed cycle the week before I put them down to cool, and didnt slough her skin until Feb 11th. My entire collection went down on November 25th, and I pulled them Feb 20th. She dropped the clutch on Feb 24th. The eggs were normal size, and looked good, they were just infertile. She started acting a little lethargic during the last week of brumation, and I got a little worried about her. Well low and behold the reason was because she had 3 eggs in her. She is doing excellent now. Ive never had this happen with any colubrids, with several thousand clutches in my years of experience so I was extremely baffled. I am just getting around to posting because Ive been so extremely busy but this happened close to a month ago now. Anyone else ever seen or heard of something like this? Ive got pics of the eggs and the female laying etc that Ill get around to posting soon as I have a moment. thanks guys hope everyone's season is off to a good start.
Will

Will, this is the stuff that gets me in trouble, but also the reason why I say the things I say.

If your female laid eggs four days after, what you call brumation. Then its absolutely clear, she was not brumating. This is exactly why I say snakes are active at cooler temps and do things.

I take temps of snakes in nature and year around. They can and do move and interact with body temps in the hi 30's to low 40's. Heck, my lowest temp for hogs crossing the road is 54F, followed by 57F. So hmmmmmmmmmmmm mid fifties, heck she could have crossed the road.

The point of this is, your snake just showed you something and taught you something. Now its up to you to realize what happened.

And yes, there have been a few folks report having females lay in winter. Anyway, your lucky she dropped the eggs without harm, you can feed her up and go again, best wishes

I appreciate the input, but you are jumping to conclusions based on assumptions of your own. The thing is, she was brumating. She was almost completely inactive all winter, and yes you are right. Most colubrids still stay active during their winter cool down, but that doesn't mean that they arn't still psychologically and physically brumating. Even in the wild, colubrids will surface of warm days and hang out for a while. Temps only hit 54-55 for a period of a couple hours, on three seperate days. Every other day was below 49 but averaged around 46-47, and that was from Thanksgiving until Feb 20th so I know she was brumated, and cooled properly. I mean out of a couple hundred snakes, she is the only one to not brumate? That doesn't make any sense.

Ok now the reason I know she was brumating is the fact that she was inactive to the point of not even being able to finish her shed cycle till the end of brumation. If she would have finished her cycle before I put her down for the winter, then I am logically left to believe she would have laid these eggs right after she shed in the late fall. The thing is she carried these eggs in her all winter. Im lucky I didnt lose her during brumation just from the eggs solidifying in her. The first egg that she laid was solid as a rock, almost like a piece of urate. It was crazy. Obviously been in there for a long time. What I'm trying to figure out is how the hell did she survive the winter with them in her. I know snakes and hognose specifically are resilient creatures, but Im completely shocked she survived. Another reason for my post was just to see if anyone else has ever had this happen. Again I'm so shocked. I also question whether or not she should be bred this season. After that scare I believe its better safe than sorry for her, and gonna give her the season off.

So what am I assuming here? its your report, all I can do is look at what you said, no more, no less. The point, you stated, it was brumating. You stated the temps. You stated it laid four days out of brumation. the Simple deduction is, she was in active reproduction mode, which is not bromating. Therefore, you can call it anything you want, but the result was her laying eggs. Which is not brumating. Its part of a active reproductive cycle.

What is interesting to me is, the snakes I am watching in the field, are about a month to month and a half, ahead of schedule.

Whats important is, terms like hibernation/brumation, etc, are terms defined by the state of the animal, not by putting it in a room or cage at a certain temp. And calling it something.Again, By the condition of the animal. In this case, your hog was telling you, it was not hibernation/brumating. How she made her point was, she dropped eggs right after(4days) out of condition your calling bromating. The normal reproductive cycle ranges from aprox 30 days to over 40. So her body was active for that amount of time.

Lastly, fighting with me or saying I am assuming this or that, will not change the facts, she laid eggs 4 days out of brumation.

Let me try again, brumate/hibernate are words that describe a state. Most think they describe winter sleeping. So if you have a couple hundred snakes in brumation and one develops eggs in brumation, it was not bromating. That is easy to understand.

Back in the seventies, I had lots of kings of all types. At that time I hibernated them, hibernate was the word of choice at that time, Brumate came later to describe the same action.

A friend gave me a wild caught four foot long, Knob pyro. It was the nicest colored animal. IT have been held in the field in a 50 gallon drum, for months outside. IT was skinny as a rail.

So all my snakes were hibernating in a air conditioned room, aprox 55 to 60F. I would check them out from time to time and noticed that pyro was crawl more then the others, so I offered it a fuzzie, it ate it. Well it ate all winter with no added heat, in a hibernation room. So I made a note to myself, that pyro was not hibernating and feed well and passed stool well.

Lets speed up to now, I rarely hibernate snakes these days, but I did this year. A number of kings an a trio of hogs. The room is in the forties at night and no higher then 60 in the day. I'll be danged if the kings have been feeding for months with no problems and they can barely work their jaws to swallow.

The hogs on the other hand are cold and barely can move. So in the same room at the same temps, some are hibernating(old term) some are not.

A related statement, this is why I say hibernation/brumation is not required for reproduction, but cool temps are. end part 1

A little off topic, I observe wild snakes and have for decades. At this time of year, I observe diamondbacks. I have areas where I can observe them all winter. They can den up, that is, many individuals in one area. or winter singly. The females that are going to reproduce, stay in their shelters long past the males. The males sit(post) outside the shelters for up to a month before the females emerge. The males patiently wait, and bask.

When its time for the females to emerge, they bask for a couple days, copulate then move out of the den area. Their body temps during winter are 34F to mid forties. They emerge went they start to develop ovum. They look thin, but you can palpate ovum. So if we us our method of understanding(the words) While these females are hibernating/bromating, they are actively in reproductive mode. I also worked on C.willardi and C.lepidus for many years and those females were very active all winter, high elevation and cold as heck, and carried much larger ovum and at times embryos.

So please understand, I have reason to say what I say. End part 2

So while we keepers really want the terms, hibernation/brumation, to mean the animals are sleeping or maybe held from reproduction, it simply does not work that way.
If you think about it, cooling is a tool to induce reproductive cycles. So cooling IS a part of the reproductive cycle. So all you have here is, a case of timing. That hog girl, was not timed the way you hoped. Your error is, you think that brumation/hibernation actually stops them for going thru the reproductive cycle, and in that your wrong. AS you have seen, they can. Why I do not like those terms is exactly for this reason. The snakes I watch in nature, are actively participating in reproductive biology all winter, both physically and behaviorally. So I have a hard time calling that hibernating. If you remember, biologist do not call what bears do in winter, hibernation, because they give birth in winter.

In your case, it was a matter of poor or misunderstood timing. There is no question, something triggered your female to lay eggs and you do not understand what is was, as you were under the impression that brumation prevented such things. While in FACT, it did not prevent it, did it?
The problem and why we fight is, I think keepers, you in this case, believe in the word first and the animal second. I guess I can only say, keepers really should have more faith in the animals and less in words or terms. Thank you and I hope you think about this instead of fighting.

Hello-

I didn't take the time to read all of Frank's comments, and I have no intention of trying to respond to him at length. I will address your original question.

Hogs, like many snakes, will ovulate when they have contact with a male. There are probably many physiological and environmental cues which bring this about, but the most basic one is physical contact with another snake, and the smell of another snake.

If you handled a male snake, and then handled your girl, or at any time housed her, even briefly, with another snake, male or female, you may have triggered one of these cues which caused her to ovulate. It is rare, but it does happen. When two hogs meet they "greet" eachother by jerking and rubbing against each other. This action alone may stimulate ovulation.

The fact that she laid the clutch 4 days after brumation is just a coincidence. She went into her prelay shed, and then you dropped her temps to levels that caused her to become physiologically inactive. When you warmed her up, she passed the eggs. If you had waited 10 days to brumate (hindsight being 20/20) she would have laid the infertile eggs before you could cool her.

I've had this happen twice. Once, I placed a 250 gram, virgin female in a display cage with four other girls at a reptile show, and about two months later she laid 18 slugs.

If anything, I think your experience shows how Frank, in his first comment, was wrong. It is precisely because the snake was so cool and inactive that it held the eggs over winter.

Your observations of snakes active in cool temps are corroborated by several others, but keep in mind a cage at 55 degrees in your house is not equal to 55 degree ambient temps outside. At 55 degrees the sun can still warm a basking snake, and the soil it's crawling on to normal operating temps.

Anyway, it's an interesting example of how stuff sometimes doesn't go the way you want it to.

Dan
Solid Hogs Available Hognose

Thank you Dan, Making this about right or wrong is the problem with you guys. Its about discussion and possibly learning some husbandry skills.
Of course I could be wrong, but what would eliminate any question would be if you guys actually learned how to palpate females and then there would be no doubt when and how a female cycles.
Even your report is full of assumptions. Like contact with other animals. That would cause wild hogs to lay eggs over 9 most of the year. Also because I tend to keep snakes in groups, they would be reproducing all the time.
Your example of taking a female to a show, I have to wonder if a temperature change from brumation to car rides and show temps could cause a female to cycle. That seems far more likely to me. But that does not matter. You or I will not know why his female was gravid in winter. The reason is, we do not have the snake in hand to "know" the details. So pretty much everything we talk about with other folks problem animals, is merely discussion.
You seem to want to make me the bad guy, which is odd. If I have an understanding gained from decades of experience, that does not make me a bad guy or even right. That it makes you feel threatened is your own ego problems.
About this skill. When we were in the beginning of colubrid discovery, WE had to develop skills to be successful. So let me tell you a story. A friend Ernie Wagner, would always carry a silk handkerchief. And whenever we visited another persons collection, he would hold the animals and palpate them. I also always do that. Doing that is a matter of communication. That is, it tells us what condition the animal is in. It tells us if the animal is healthy, in breeding condition, cycling, has a bolus etc.
Also saying I am wrong without reading what I said, really is telling. Also thinking any comments on here are solid fact without real knowledge of the animal is a weak assumption. All we can offer here is ideas. Best wishes

My response had nothing to do with making you the bad guy, or protecting my ego. Please don't make it about you. I simply responded to the original question. I am allowed to give my opinion on this forum, am I not? I could discuss some of your comments further, but you don't seem to be able to have a civil discussion. If you don't take anything anyone else says seriously, what is the point of talking to you? I am fully aware of your many years of experience, and I respect that. My monitors have always had "Retes Racks", and they are ingenious. However, that does not prevent me from civilly disagreeing with your comments. I respect your opinion, I just disagree with some of it.

Dan
Solid Hogs Available Hognose

Great Dan, I thank you for that. Lets get down to business.
We are all allowed to have an opinion. What would be great is, Instead of saying, your wrong, how about asking why I said what I said. You see, stating your WRONG, is not about your opinion, or discussion, its adversarial and arguementative. Which is very common here, so forgive me.
Your right in there is no way to know what actually happened, the right or wrong part. Not enough information. But your example is full of assumptions as well. As I mentioned, learning basic or what should be basic husbandry skills would eliminate guessing. In this case, learning to palpate. I say basic, and now days, sonograms(ultrasound) is a little more advanced and requires equipment.
There was no information other then it laid eggs after a stated brumation. Which "does mean", it was not brumating. It is a huge misconception that "brumation" stops biological processes, particularly at the temps mentioned. As mentioned, studies both in captivity and in nature, indicate that with snakes, the reproductive process requires low temps, such as mentioned. As mentioned, voluntary physical movement has been observed in snakes and hogs, at much lower temps. I tend to use the road crossing example to show that a snake crossing the road at lower temps cannot be hibernating.
For all intent and purposes, the only help we could be would be in the future, if that keeper was interested in understanding what went on, then he could 1. control it, if that is not wanted. 2. utilize it, you know, included a male and received viable eggs. 3. simply prevent it.
I would question your example but again, you do not have information to support your theory. If you do please offer it for consideration. Thanks and have a great day.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought hibernation occured in mamels & is a state of sleep. Brumation occures in reptiles & is a state of reduced activity. They are completly different conditions.

If you goggle up brumate, it leads to a definition for dormancy with explains, hibernation, brumation and aestivation.

The problem is, the concepts they are based on is fluid and not accurate. For instance, if you take snakes, In most cases, non reproductive individuals, simply do down in winter and brumate. I have no problem with that.
What we have learned over the years is that reproductive individuals do NOT, do that, and calling what they do brumation simply, is not what they do. Reproductive individuals tend to gather in groups(dens) from very large to pairs, migrate to particular places that support reproductive biology, which differs from non reproductive brumation. When reproductive individuals gather in the fall. Its not to "sleep" together. While sleeping does occur, they do not gather in their groups to sleep. They gather in these particular groups as part of their reproductive process.
In my work with wild hogs, they indeed gather in the fall. The males are either near their mates, or track down their mates in the fall, and stay with them until the breeding season is over. With the hogs in my area. They do not leave until after the eggs are laid. They stay together, in the ground, until after the eggs are dropped. Then they feed like crazy, yet, they still forage the same areas as their mates.
The point here is, in nature, brumation for reproductive individuals seems important in both a social and biological aspect. These animals choose different areas then non reproductive individuals. The point is, with these types of snakes, the winter period is not a period of slowed metabolism only. Its a period of time that's important to their reproductive biology. Therefore cannot be called hibernation or brumation accurately. But can be called brumation is a inaccurate, misleading and generalistic way. Thanks and have a great day.

Would you like to link us to the peer reviewed research which supports your above comments?

Dan
Available Hogs

No offense, using the peer reviewed deal, is a cop out. While there is tons of wonderful accurate information, There is also very weak information, pretty much like what makes Mexican and western hogs a different species. Not totally wrong, just really weak.

Also peer reviewed is not all enclusive, which means it only contains, what it contains, no more. There is room for more and more information and there WILL be. As of this time, its particularly weak in the area of behavior. In fact, herp science is now in a time of change. Such things as Mtdna and time lapse cameras are changing the landscape of study. Time lapse cameras are revealing a whole world of information that's taken without interference.
One talk I attended was on wintering fox snakes in the basement of this old house. Those snakes wintered in the basement for years and years, then the house was going to be sold and torn down. They allowed some study before the house was destroyed. They pit tagged the animals, and a surprise to them, during the winter they were able to id animals behind the foundation walls. ALso a surprise was the animals moved all around behind the walls, A unique situation that allowed animals to be tracked without interference during behavior.
Also with my own work, I have located wintering sites that allow viewing of the animals, all winter. of several species. And all move around without problem, using infrared temps guns with laser sites, I can take temps of the animals. Which varies from just above freezing, to the mid forties, OF MOVING ANIMALS. ALso on our C.lepidus C.willardi study, we commonly found individuals out and moving with body temps in the forties, All winter, these were quick read mercury thermometers taken both cloacally and orally(yuk) And no, not with hogs, as the type of habitat is not handy naturally, while I have seen them out in all winter months, its rare in winter. part 1

While my normal winter observation areas are natural, with hogs unless I discover some unique areas, I would have to build something and that would be interference, but I may if given permission.
Back to the peer reviewed question, my bet is theres a lot of work done and published on wintering sites. Even some with cameras, if I remember correctly or was told correctly, some of the original camera work was done back east on timbers. So please, go have a look, see what you can find.

As it is, I have done my own work and have been on other field studies where winter activity was reported. So its not new to me.

Lastly peer reviewed is limited by tools and direction of study. And of course, money. Theres is lots and lots and lots of ACTUAL real data that has escaped those information areas. My bet is, there will be more added each and every year, all stuff not in there now. The harsh reality is, cutting edge research is always ahead of data bases, peered reviewed or not.
Of real interest is how Mtdna methods were discovered. Look it up.
CONTEXT, this is a discussion board and any and all information here, has nothing to do with peer reviewed or not. I have lots of storied on the areas between peer reviewed and discovery if your interested.

I wonder why you don't ask questions. I know I would if you wrote what I did above.
I could add more, like any data that makes it to peer review, is generally old, how old becomes the question.
I could tell you how peer review works with some recent research on behavior(social) and Az. Black rattlesnakes(cerbs) It was a non contact, non interference study, and it revealed huge amounts of important data. But there was a problem with the advisors, The authors used photograghs and illustrations to id individuals, but the advisors were wanted bloodwork to positively id individuals. To take blood, you are required to interfere with the animals and their behavior. So to appease the advisors, you impact the animals and the colony and the results.
Heres the deal. Its behavior(ethology) the rules of behavior are not about exact or positive Id's, Behavior is trends, not tight information, instead loose.
On our level, attempting to make behavior tight, like they DO THIS AND THEY DO THAT, will only confuse you and hold you back from learning. What I am attempting to get across to you is, Peer review is very weak in the area of behavior and its based on their own prejudice(how they think) and exacting rules of study, that do not WORK at all for understanding behavior. End this part.

Those rules are excellent at understanding hard biology(biological function) but horrible at understanding behavior.
Such things as reproductive behavior, social behavior, etc. Are what keep the animals in existence. Behavior is loose to ensure survival. So for you to make it about peer review, is purely academic, pay particular attention to 2.
ac·a·dem·ic

/ˌakəˈdemik/

adjective: academic
1. of or relating to education and scholarship.
"academic achievement"

2. not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest.
"the debate has been largely academic"
synonyms: theoretical, conceptual, notional, philosophical, hypothetical, speculative, conjectural, suppositional; More
impractical, unrealistic, ivory-tower

"the debate has been largely academic"

Such tools are radio telemetry where an animal is removed from nature, having major surgery, then quickly returned, effectively renders all results "academic" as the method actively changes behavior. As a field rat in the desert, what telemetry reveals is, how an individual reacts to major surgery and being followed by a team of predators. This explains the tools that are missing in peer review. Wrong tools, pit tags, radio telemetry, wrong rules, exacting, math driven, using rules of hard science, biology, not rules of ethology. Thanks have a great day.